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What really annoys me about (ebay-owned) paypal is they claim it's a safe way to send and receive cash, but it isn't!

 

As you log in, they proudly proclaim, "PayPal. Your fast, secure way to pay and get paid online".

 

Really? So could they please explain to me why a £27 item bought on Friday night and shown as "Completed", posted on Saturday, then Saturday night showed up as "Reversed"??? (apparently a stolen credit card was used).

 

"Completed, according to Paypal's own description, means "This status shows that the add funds, withdrawal, payment and money request transactions through PayPal account have been completed successfully."

 

"Completed successfully" means, to me, that the money is safely in my Paypal account!!! So how can a successfully completed transaction be reversed? How can that be safe?

 

 

The trouble is for sellers like myself who trade seriously on ebay, you MUST accept Paypal because ebay drum it into buyers that it is the safest way to pay, so 90% of your sales are paid for via paypal.

 

Bottom line: If Paypal claim it is safe and a transaction is completed, then they should pay for any loss if 24 hours later they discover the item has been paid for using a stolen credit card. If it's stolen, the transaction should be rejected on the spot and NOT shown as completed, not reversed 24 hours later! :-x


I only mouth my opinion, please look elsewhere for sensible advice! :)

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I don't agree at all. The OP accepted payment by PAYPAL, the responsibility should lie with them to ensure that the card is valid.

 

I agree with you entirely in where the responsibility *should* lie. And it might be slightly different for PayPal versus say Streamline on the basis that PayPal relies on plenty of residential/home based/personal businesses and transactions.

 

The people carrying those out would, if they applied for Streamline to take cards directly, be made well aware of the "chargeback" risk (where a transaction is reversed). I think generally people think that if they receive a card payment, it's guaranteed. Especially after a few days and you've withdrawn the money.

 

It simply is not and never has been. Pay Pal probably ought to be a little clearer on this to say the least (wouldn't do their business much good, though) - ever wondered why they got so keen on setting up direct debit mandates on their business accounts? That's so they can get their chargeback back from you if they've credited your account (he says cynically)

 

Also PayPal is a "broker" service and therefore due diligence applies; though, if they provided chargeback protection (e.g. they pay up regardless) the transaction fees would be nearer to say 20% than they are now, because of the amount of money they would lose.

 

They became the 'preferred' payment method in EBAY long before the merger...the trust element almost makes them 'fiduciary', yet they regularly penalise those who repose that trust.

 

Yes. You may have something here; I tried to sell something on eBay once and because it insisted on PayPal I gave up. However many don't and feel pressured into it.

 

I don't know about retailers having transactions reversed, never happened that way for me, might be a new thing. I recall there was a lot of stink about the fact that retailers weren't diligent enough at spotting stolen cards because they didn't give a toss - they got paid regardless.

 

Indeed. However even if the merchant processor gives an authorisation code, they can still take their cash back if the card proves to be stolen. It is the retailer's problem. If the retailer doesn't want the risk, they don't take cards. Which effectively puts them out of business. Nice one.

 

Also remember that many stolen cards are used *before* being reported stolen (e.g. in the immediate 24 hours after interception) so the Bank/Merchant company cannot, actually, know that the card was stolen when it was used. Hence the reversal comes later on.

 

The entire situation stunk and retailers have complained about this for years: Chip & PIN was meant to shift liability - if the PIN was keyed the retailer is paid out while the Banks simultaneously assume that the genuine cardholder was indeed the true purchaser - they must have been if they had the PIN, surely it's hack-proof.... well, no, not quite.

 

PAYPAL could get around a lot of this type of fraud by simply NOT allowing delivery to any address other than the one registered to the card. No valid address, no sale.

 

All of the eCommerce sites we build (I'm a web developer) explicitly do not support shipping to addresses other than the card address. This is best practice, it does mean the overwhelming majority of people who aren't at home during the day cannot have their purchase delivered to work as was once the case, and so some sales are lost. However it cuts fraud dramatically.

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The point is many people who "trade" on ebay do so on a casual basis, and are unaware of the day-to-day pitfalls of credit card payments.

 

You could argue that they should make themselves aware of the pitfalls but remember these are not professional businessmen, and since ebay and paypal tout the service as being "the safe way to send and receive payments" then that's what it should be!

 

Since it's anything but, they shouldn't say so - simple as! If they insist on proclaiming it's safe then they should accept responsibility when things go tits up - they charge enough to cover these eventualities and it's my belief that they should offer some sort of security against this. As I said, they should not show a sale as completed and describe 'completed' as they do if it's not final and binding.

 

It's one thing to say don't accept paypal but ebay push it so much that many people think you are a dodgy seller if you don't! Certainly your sales suffer, and you almost certainly lose more in sales profit by not accepting paypal than you would through the odd fradulent transaction if you do accept paypal.

 

Paypal and ebay should use one registered address for everything. It's a joke. A friend of mine was suspended by paypal after refusing to pay back a deficit of £47 after they reversed a transaction for an item, like me, he had already sent. He simply opened another paypal account in his girlfriends name but used his own address. Verification was and still is a bank account number (basic bank account in her name) and a telephone call to his own home. So even though his registered and verified paypal address isn't even in his name he is still happily trading with it and has been for three years!

 

Safe? Secure? Don't make me laugh.


I only mouth my opinion, please look elsewhere for sensible advice! :)

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Hello, I had the same problem but mine for £20.00 thankfully.

account went into the red, got runaround for months in the end phoned them to take me court, they had all the info they needed umpteen times, got sick and started harrassing them on the phone, mine was just a [EDIT], left positive feedback and it was 11 weeks before they did the chargeback, I got my money back eventually, but account now dormant, and the [EDIT] lives in a holiday destination, never been there before :)


Saxon

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Hi,

Im new to the CAG and this forum, so im reading back on old paypal problems. Recently had the same problem when I sold something on ebay, paypal confirmed monies recieved into my account, dispatched item only for paypal to then reverse money with no explanation what so ever - ALL £525!!

I am now going to take everything to my local police and try to get it investigated under "obtaining goods through deceit".

I will also be closing both my ebay and paypal account.

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What was Paypal's reasoning for the reversal?

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They have no idea! I hate waiting a month to get an item... thought cheques had to take time to clear?! it seem these days Paypal takes longer to clear... well for the seller to trust the buyer with payment... but i have noticed, everything was pay with paypal... now alot have refused to accept it now!

 

I am annoyed because i paid for an item 2 weeks ago, auction stated next day delivery (to me that says if i won the item on a mondaya nd paid for it on the monday, then the item gets to me by wednesday..hmm no such luck)

 

ebay is a major joke, i always see the legally binding contract sh*t, but you get the sellers who refund you because the item went too cheap because they didnt want to set a reserve, technically if i refuse the refund i get the item? Nooo.. :( Thats just eBay, paypal is terrible...

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What is the amount of time before the reversal?

 

If it's happening just a day or two after payment, surely the easiest way for sellers is to delay sending anything out till 48hours after the payment? (Not the best solution, but I can't really see PayPal getting their act together when they're making millions anyway).

 

I'm curious to know the longest amount of time between payment and reversal as I don't wanna get stung myself and it seems to be getting more and more common. :-/


"Be reasonable, demand the impossible"

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Hello, for me it was 13 days, and he left positive feedback, took a long time to get the money back, but did eventually. the man concerned lives in a holiday destination that I've not been to before, though I should try to be more adventurous ;)


Saxon

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I thought paypal offered some kind of protection on transactions? Wouldn't this cover the seller if they send the item and then a payment is reversed? I know that if you buy something and don't get it then paypal gives you your money back.

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:D if only that were true, I'm very cynical, sorry

 

I had seller protection, sent item recorded delivery, to verified address, item was signed for, feddback was left by both parties and then 'the nice' person did a chargeback, paypal gave the runaround for months, until I lost my temper phoned them and told them to take me to court for balance outstanding as the chargeback meant I had gone into the red and I was determined I wasn't going to pay them for their negligence.

 

IF you ever get chargeback follow the email channels first, then go by phone and speak to a manager not the floor staff, no offence meant but you still get a runaround from them.

 

If no joy tell them to take you to court or you'll take them if your account hasn't gone into the red.

 

Paypal really should sort themselves out, they make their money from sellers fees etc.


Saxon

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One of the other things is that with the new, detailed seller rating, even if you waited 48 / 72 hrs or so to ship the item after the payment was received (which is the usual amount of times it takes for Paypal to reverse or hold the transaction), you are going to get marked down on your shipping speed.

 

Paypal and ebay have sellers over a barrel I think. I sell a lot on ebay and have done for over 8 years. In that time, I have had 5 reversed transactions.....but 3 of those have been in the last 6 weeks. In all of those instances, Paypal didn't give a flying monkeys, even when I had emails saying item received and positive feedback left. The system sucks but yet I agree with the other posted who said if you don't accept it, your sales drop.


Please note that I am not a legal expert and all advice given is without prejudice and is purely my opinion only.

 

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Hi,

 

My reversal was done within 48 hours, but no explanation from paypal as to why. It was only because ebay emailed me to say that "fraudulent activity" had occured on the auction that i was aware anything was wrong.

Also I am not covered under sellers protection from paypal because the address sent to me on their transaction details was not verified. I have only been a ebay and paypal member for 3 months and still do not understand what "not verified" means, even though I have asked them to explain.

Of course I am now kicking myself for not double checking the address, but as far as I was concerned if paypal send me a completed transaction email with a delivery address included I presumed it was safe and verified, as paypal claim to be the safest way to deal with money on the internet.

A very expensive lesson to learn - hopefully the police will be more helpful. Already chatted to them today and I am now gathering evidence to pass over to them. Apparently things like this happen quite a lot and can fund more serious organised crime.

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Ah - Seller Protection only kicks in if the buyer has a verified address. It looks as though you were paid by a stolen credit card and the card address and that of the buyer did not match. I appreciate would wouldn't be aware of the significance, but many sellers will refuse to ship to anything other than a PayPal verified address because of the risk.

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I now realise this, but wasn't really aware of the significance of what a verified address was - my own stupid fault. However I still feel that Paypal has to take a lot of the blame especially as they are providing a service (for which we are charged) which should include a safe and secure way to do transactions. If the shipping address does not match the credit card address (which we cannot see) then as part of their chargeable security service should they not be contacting the buyer to check for fraudulent activity before activating a completed transaction email to the seller. Surley that is the whole point is using Paypal.

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I can fully sympathise - but the indications are already there (Address Not Verified), it's just the significance isn't realised, and they don't spell it out in big letters, as you might just want to send it anyway - if it was a low value item. It's a hard lesson to learn I agree.

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PayPal is no different to any other online transaction dealer.. We use Paypal for ebay and a major high street banks organisation for card payments on line and over the phone. There is NO guarantee with any of them that there will not be a chargeback for the transaction. At least with PayPal, if you only send items to the registered and verified address and keep proof of postage you are covered for fraud up to a certain level that i can't remember right now. With the other online card companies there is no guarantee at all. they are all much of the same..

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Paypal is NOT a bank and can use its own rules to satisfy itself

 

have a look at PayPalSucks.com is where you will learn about the PayPal Class Action Lawsuit, Abuse, Fraud & evil behind the PayPal system! and read the horror stories

 

Dave


** We would not seek a battle as we are, yet as we are, we say we will not shun it. (Henry V) **

 

see you stand like greyhounds in the slips,

Straining upon the start. The game's afoot:

Follow your spirit; and, upon this charge

Cry 'God for Harry! England and Saint George!'

:D If you think I have helped, informed, or amused you do the clickey scaley thing !! :D

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ignore the PayPal Guarantees... not worth the webpages its displayed on!

 

Dont rely and feel that your money is safe because of a bit of text!

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Interestingly enough I have just spent an hour down at the local police station chatting to a very sympathetic copper. I took all my email correspondence from both ebay and paypal and the POD from Royal mail. He agrees with me that Paypal sucks and had no right to A: Close the dispute without my side of story B: Take back money from account when I had already asked for a bank transfer & C: Give no explanation what so ever what had actually happened.

He also agrees that because I have an ebay email AND Paypal email with the same address on it I followed all the correct procedures and should not be held responsible. He is willing to open this up as a crime BUT I need to get confirmation from ebay about the original buyers address - the one who put in the dispute saying he hadn't bid and got the chargback.

If it is a different address to what is on ebay and paypal then the police are happy that it is internet fraud and will open up and investigation. If it is the same address as what is supplied by both ebay and paypal then I have proof that my item was delieverd there, therefore I should be able to get my money back through Paypal - but this would have to be through a civil action NOT a crime investigation. So I am going to try and get the original buyers details from ebay to see if the addresses match. Has anybody had to do this before? I would be interested in what the out come was.

Will keep you all posted....

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Good luck, i doubt they would disclose it... but you never know.

 

Criminal investigations only can be lodged to a person, like you mentioned, the problem is those rogue sellers hide behind ebay...

 

i would suggest to get the police (ask them nicely) to do this, the letterhead alone should hit it home besides they should see it with some authority.

 

As things stand atm ebay see's you in the wrong, so they are barely going to give someones address away to you - but hopefully that would be a different story if they saw the police involved.

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For Paypal transactions prior to 2nd July this year there is a way to recover money. Before this date Paypal was trading as Paypal Europe Ltd, with its registered office in the UK, after this the trading company was (is)based in Luxembourg.

 

Paypal never advertise this, nor do successful litigants, because they always make it a condition of the payout that a confidentiality agreement is signed.

 

So let us assume hypothetically that you have a dispute with Paypal, and they fob you off with the usual excuses of their terms and conditions which absolve them from liability.

 

I would suggest that you issue County Court proceedings against Paypal, (you will need to show breach of contract by the other party who you transacted with) but state in your claim that in Court you will be relying upon The Unfair Contract Terms Act 1977 (as amended) to set aside or have amended Paypals Terms and Conditions. You further state that paypal acted on behalf of the other party in the matter of the money transaction, and that their liability is joint and several.

 

Paypal will file a defence, but persist, remember all you are risking is some time and a small amount of Court fees, they will need expensive representation in Court, and the costs of getting there. I would hypothetically suggest that in the end they would (like a number of the banks) rather settle rather than get involved in the expense and hassel.

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I have never had a problem with paypal although hav had problems others have had.

 

I don't sell many high value items but when I do would only send to a verified address. You are within your right to refund paypal payment and ask for cheque/postal order instead if not verified.

 

Always send trackable although many heavy items i sell i send standard parcles and get enhanced compensation if needed.

 

Your local police major police station should have and internet fraud department should you need it.

 

I know it's not much help to things that HAVE happened but if your going to sell on ebay and accept paypal payments you have to know how to deal with things beforehand so you are covered.

 

I have never lost any money through ebay/paypal but i am one of those people who find out everything before agreeing to it!

 

and busby ..... thanks.... you said on another thread before about crossing out things on contracts/agreements that you don't agree with. I did it and they agreed and then after the work they didn't agree but when i produced the original agreement with the salesmans sig at the crossed out sections.......i had no further problems ;)

 

 

But important to remember about ebay....

 

most people are like you and me .....pay for something to receive it.

 

Always check for buyer/seller protection and the limit

Sometimes buyers don't know that their payment been reversed ( reported their card stolen after purchase or stopped another payment but bank mucked up)... give them a call.

You can ask for buyer to verify their account.

If unsure ask before sendinng item!

 

Idax


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For Paypal transactions prior to 2nd July this year there is a way to recover money. Before this date Paypal was trading as Paypal Europe Ltd, with its registered office in the UK, after this the trading company was (is)based in Luxembourg.

 

And for argument's sake, now it is a Luxembourg company, and you cannot service a Small Claim action internationally, what would you suggest the OP does?

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They still have registered office in the uk, can't they use those address' for any court action buzby?

 

Idax


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