Parking eye/DCBL ANPR PCN - new leisure centre in Berwick-upon-tweed - Pros and cons of not paying the £145

[fuzzel]

Hi Guys, 

 I have a standard parking eye but with particular personal circumstances that might merit just paying the £145, depending on your advice. 

On 4th April 2022 we went to the new leisure centre in Berwick-upon-tweed. We don't live in the area and it was our first time since the new centre had been built, so we weren't aware of the parking situation. The old car park was gone, so we parked in the car park immediately next to it, just outside Farm foods. We didn't see any signs and the car park was empty aside from one other vehicle. When we came out, ours was the only car in the car park. 

I then received the parking charge notice from Parking Eye, along with pics of our car and the signage at the entrance to the car park (again, we didn't see it).

I appealed and also sent them an email explaining that we didn't see any of their signage and assumed the car park was for both farmfoods and the leisure centre we were attending. I explained that since we did not see the sign we could not have entered into a contract with farmfoods or parking eye and therefore could not be held liable for any breach of their terms and conditions, therefore they have no contractual right of recovery against me. I refused to pay the charge and said they'd just have to take me to court, where I would defend the claim and seek expenses. 

So contractually, they have no right of claim because there was no contractual agreement, and there's no delictual liability because  they've suffered no losses as a result of me parking there. 

So legally, I'm confident that if it went to court I would easily defeat a claim because they have no evidence that I read their signage and agreed to the terms therein, and no evidence of any losses they've suffered as a result of my actions. That's before considering any technical rules they may have broken in pursuing the charge

What I'm wondering is whether it's worth defending in a practical sense, even though the law is on my side, because I've had some significant issues with long covid for the past 13 months plus a recent reinfection that has set me back a bit. Basically I'd rather not have to attend a busy court during what is the start of another wave of

covid infections, or have the to and fro hassle of dealing with a court claim for the sake of £145. BUT, I also don't want to give in to these predatory scumbags and do exactly what so many people do and just give in to them for an easy life. For me, it might end up cutting off my nose to spite my face because I could do to be focussing on my health right now and not running on the treadmill of debt collection again. (I was there 4 years ago and you guys were incredible in helping me resolve it).  

All that being the case.

 

1. How likely are they to lodge a claim in court?

2. Are they likely to obtain a CCJ without my knowledge and without me having an opportunity to defend myself and if so, is there we I can intervene to prevent that? I don't want any credit report issues as we're looking to get a mortgage in the next few years. 

3. What would you do in my shoes, in light of the above, to balance not being taken for a mug with not engaging these clowns for hours of my time to save £145? 

Thanks in advance.






 

[dx100uk]

please complete this

 

and next time never appeal!!

 

dx

 

[fuzzel]

Thanks, I live in Scotland and normally ignore these things, but because it occurred in England I thought I'd best deal with it. I  stupidly thought they'd see sense when I appealed and explained I hadn't seen the signs and hadn't parked there for Farmfoods. Should have known better.

 

For PCN's received through the post [ANPR camera capture]

(must be received within 14 days from the Incident)

 

Please answer the following questions.

 

1 Date of the infringement 3/4/22

 

2 Date on the NTK [this must have been received within 14 days from the 'offence' date] 7/4/22  - it was issued to my car finance company who forwarded it to me. 
 

[scan up BOTH SIDES as ONE PDF- follow the upload guide]

please do not put JPG Picture files into your post

 

3 Date received not sure, less than a week after I parked there
 

4 Does the NTK mention schedule 4 of The Protections of Freedoms Act 2012? [Y/N?] N
 

5 Is there any photographic evidence of the event? 2 pictures, one showing the front of my car with timestamp, the other showing the back of my car with timestamp.
 

6 Have you appealed? [Y/N?] post up your appeal] It was an online appeal via the Psrking Eye website iirc.

Have you had a response? [Y/N?] post it up Y - they just said the appeal was rejected.
 

7 Who is the parking company? Parking Eye

 

8. Where exactly [carpark name and town] Farmfoods, Berwick-upon-tweed
 

For either option, does it say which appeals body they operate under.

POPLA and BSA
 

There are two official bodies, the BPA and the IAS. If you are unsure,

please check HERE

 

If you have received any other correspondence, please mention it here - "notice of debt recovery" from dbcl

 

 

 

 

 

pdf24_images_merged-1.pdf

[lookinforinfo]

 

Thanks for posting up the answers so quickly.

 

You are slightly wrong in Law that not seeing a notice is virtually a get out of jail card. Were it the case, then every motorist would say they hadn't seen the signs . Of course the signs have to be situated where motorists can see them and the font size has to be big enough to read-perhaps from a moving car so you still have options there-especially if it is a new car park and the bugs haven't been sorted out yet.

 

Are you close enough to get photos from the car park? especially at the entrance and the payment machine but also other dotted around the car park and any that have different terms on their sign compared to others. try not to get a PCN if you do. If you know someone in Berwick they could send you some pictures. It might cost you a dram but saves your petrol-and maybe your bacon.

 

You haven't posted the PCN that you should have received from PE after the Finance company gave them your name. Did you receive  a Notice to Driver  -something similar to the one sent to the Finance company.after the Finance company reported you.  No I don't mean the crap you received from DCBL:.

 

The reason we advise not to appeal is that in doing so the motorist often gives away the fact that they were the driver when they are appealing as the keeper.  Under the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012 if the PCN is not compliant, the keeper cannot be held liable for the alleged debt. And even if the keeper and driver are the same person, should the case ever get to Court PE cannot assume that the driver and keeper are the same person. 

 

If you have given away that you are the keeper and the driver it is not fatal as there usually other things that  can be challenged and won but it is best practice not to appeal in the first place.

 

 

[fuzzel]

In reparation in Scotland and England, my understanding is that if you're a private entity you can only have a right of claim again another party in these circumstances under either contract, quasi contract, delict or quasi delict,

 

so you either have to have breached a contract with the party pursuing you or you've done something wrong against them for which you are

a) liable to them for damages and

b) have cause them to injury, suffering, financial loss etc.

 

contract cases (which this would be) the court has to decide whether there was a contract and, if so, was it breached.

In delict, they have to decide, on the balance of probabilities whether

the pursuer says happened has happened,

they are liable

and, if so, whether and how much loss the pursuer has suffered as a result.

 

There's no delict here as the car park was empty and I've not prevented eg customers shopping at farmfoods by blocking an entrance, costing them a day's takings. The only issue is whether I saw and agreed to their terms and conditions when I parked there. 

Road signs are different, because they are governed by legislation which presume you have or ought to have seen the signs, so it's a different burden of proof compared to contractual issues. So here, the court would have to believe that I read PE's sign (I didn't and there's no evidence saying I did) and accepted their terms. 

That's my understanding of it, although I'm more familiar with Scots law than English. They are very similar when it comes to contract law though. 

My main concern is whether the court grants these clowns CCJ in my absence, without notification, as often happens with eg council tax cases. I'm not sure how the court setup operates in England, I know it's different from scotland.


Re the car park, I'm 30 miles away, it's an hour away but I'm likely to be in the area again next week so I could get pics then.
I think the original PCN was sent to the finance company, if they've sent it to me then I  will have binned it as I always do with private parking charges (and before it occurred to me that, this one being in England, I should have held onto it and reconsidered). 

I think I probably gave away that I was the driver in the appeal message/email I sent them.

Edited July 7, 2022 by dx100uk
spacing

[dx100uk]

no it doesnt exactly work like that fuzzel.

particularly your car park empty bit...way out of the ball park.

and scottish law (but wont be under a scot court as location is not scottish) , has no trespass!

 

your next move is to SIT ON YOUR HAND, and not hurt yourself more.....and see if they send a letter of claim.

 

then comeback here if they do 

we have a collection of snotty letters, please dont go off on your own trip by replying !!

 

if you want to read up and get upto speed IF IF IF PE ever get bold and do court

 

use our enhanced google searchbox

 

pcn Claimform.

 

ive swapped those PDF's and tidied the thread

 

dx

 

 

[fuzzel]

I'm not sure I understand, what law governs the situation then if not contract or delict? Ie what then is the legal position and where do I have it wrong? My empty car park was just an example of how there can be no delictual liability. Contract law seems to be the only potential  legal basis of their claim.

It was a no charge car park you see, free for customers of farmfoods. I just didn't know that and parked in it because it was adjacent to the leisure centre I was going to and couldn't see an alternative car park.

Yes I won't go off on my own with anything. 

How often do they proceed to court and, if they do, can they obtain CCJ without me being notified? eg through a summary process that doesn't require notification of the defendant?

 

[dx100uk]

All your questions will fall into place when you've read a good few threads 

 

Obv a contract is involved as the driver entered into an imaginary one by entering and remaining there. Now if it's current, enforceable, upto date, with the correct planning for signs, Cameras and poles is a totally diff matter.

 

Dx

[fuzzel]

I'll have a look through the threads, but there is no such thing as an imaginary contract. You can't contract without your knowledge, it's not possible. By definition a contract requires agreement between the parties. 

It's going to be pretty black and white, other than technicalities like planning for signs, cameras and poles etc. The court either doesn't believe people when they say they didn't see the signs, or they don't. 

I can't legally have entered into a contract without my knowledge. It's not possible. That's why parking tickets are so hard to enforce. I could have seen the signs but disagreed with the terms and there would be no contract - I'd be parking there outwith any contract with farmfoods or PE. 

If I produce witnesses which would be my family to say that none of us saw the signs and therefore I could not possibly have entered a contract, there can be no liability under contract law. Period. Whether there is liability under some other area of the law like delict or trespass is another matter. There's no delict here though because they suffered no loss, and suing for damages under trespass is a complex procedure and they wouldn't be able to recover more than would be a reasonable charge for use of the land which, for a car park that was free to customers, would be negligible. 

I'm in absolutely no doubt that I'd win if it went to court, but I don't want to be attending court during another covid wave, or the hassle involved in preparing a defence, travelling the 35 miles to court etc. That's why I was keen to know how  often they raise proceedings in these cases.

[dx100uk]

oh most are imaginary believe me.....so is the fact that remaining there you are bound by it...if one actually exists in law.

 

you'll see.

 

as for the signs and not seeing  them...again its all part of the imaginary process you are deemed to have gone through before entering the area.

as long as there is prior warning to you entering such an area before you do and direct you to read the sign with the t&C before 10mins grace has expired ..you are had by default.

 

seriously, throw everything out the window you know regarding how contracts work.... they do and throw away yours and their morals before you go forward, else you'll play directly into their hands at every step.. sadly we've seen it done time and again by those that dont listen to us.

 

follow and read a good few (10's) of PCN claimform threads here and you'll be good if it ever goes that far.

 

dx

 

 

 

[FTMDave]

There is no chance at all that you will get a CCJ.

 

In the very, very, very rare instances that the PPCs win in court, well the losing motorist pays up, and that is that.  No CCJ.  CCJs are issued to people who, having lost a court case, defy the court and still refuse to pay.

 

The only time we see CCJs here is when someone moves, doesn't update the vehicle details with the DVLA, so court papers go to the wrong address, they lose by default and don't pay within the court time limits.  So CCJ.

[fuzzel]

Great, thanks. I'll sit tight in the meantime then. 

[jaycee113]

Note what FTMDave says. So long as Parking Eye have your correct address, and are communicating their bilge to you at your correct address, then any Letter Before Claim issued to you will land on your door mat.