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@radioworld - Dispute about 'damaged' distance selling return


Zamzara
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Hi all, I haven't posted here for ages but have popped back as I need a bit of help.

 

I paid £1300 for an Icom HF radio, in the knowledge I could return it if needed. At the checkpout there was an option to include a free speaker, which I accepted but didn't especially want.

 

All received ok but the free speaker had a broken bit of cosmetic damage. It was either sent like this or was broken just by opening the box. As I didn't really want it I didn't especially mind about this at first.

 

After 24 hours I decided to return the radio as it didn't suit my needs for an indoor installation: too much RF noise and it didnt include a power supply so was difficult to power as it needs 100W to transmit and I couldn't supply this.

 

I had handled it very minimally. All packaging intact, all I did was turn it on and test the reception. Boxed it up fully after 24 hours and didn't touch it again. Company notified by email of cancellation, they said 'ok but it must be returned unused' [well, ok I thought, true apart from the handling allowed by the cancellation regulations].

The retailer claims that by unboxing it and turning it on it is now second hand. They claim there is a 'mark' (no detail given) but if there is, I didn't cause it and didn't notice it.

 

They said they would send an unboxing video of the return arriving, but I haven't seen it yet. They also claim the speaker is a costly item and want to charge for it and claim it's 'unlikely' it arrived damaged.

 

My argument is firstly that I didn't damage it, but in any case it was priced as free so cannot now be valued more than minimally.

They claim the value has been reduced to £800.  Advice please on the reasonableness of my handling and this valuation....

 

Post by me are intended as a discussion of the issues involved, as these are of general interest to me and others on the forum. Although it is hoped such discussion will be of use to readers, before exposing yourself to risk of loss you should not rely on any principles discussed without confirming the situation with a qualified person.

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Posted (edited)

As regards "excessive handling" my understanding is that the law is very clear on this point and that it specifically says you are allowed to handle the goods sufficiently for you "... to establish the nature, characteristics and functioning of the goods... " before the trader can claim you have diminished their value.  (See s34(9)  The Consumer Contracts (Information, Cancellation and Additional Charges) Regulations 2013 (legislation.gov.uk)

 

So it's up to you to argue with the seller that what you did in turning it on etc was no more than was necessary for you to establish the nature, characteristics and functioning of the radio*.

 

I'm not sure about the value of the speaker, but I'd be inclined to argue that if they truly gave it to you for nothing, and you paid nothing for it, then it's value - working or not - is nothing.  It was certainly worth nothing to you because you weren't going to complain about it not working (NB - I would have complained to them... ) and it was worth nothing to them because they gave it to you for free.  But as I say, I'm not sure about this point...

 

As regards damage, marks and scratches, you need to argue the toss about this with the seller.

 

 

*s34(12) gives as an example that if you were to handle the goods beyond what might reasonable be allowed in a shop, then that could be beyond what is necessary to establish etc... etc...  But I would have thought you would be allowed to turn the radio on in a shop to see how it worked and funcioned and - most importantly - to hear what it sounded like.

 

[EDIT:  The above all assumes that this - as the thread title says - qualifies as a distance sale cancellation]

 

 

 

 

 

Edited by Manxman in exile
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the fact the speaker was 'free' is immaterial.

 

name names please

and give us all the dates upon 

purchase

day you received it

day you reported you wanted to return it

day you informed them the speaker was damaged.

and who was the courier each time.

 

bought an HF radio capable of 100W not realising you needed a +30A PSU...bit crass..hope you are a licenced amateur radio operator not a pirate.

 

dx 

please don't hit Quote...just type we know what we said earlier..

DCA's view debtors as suckers, marks and mugs

NO DCA has ANY legal powers whatsoever on ANY debt no matter what it's Type

and they

are NOT and can NEVER  be BAILIFFS. even if a debt has been to court..

If everyone stopped blindly paying DCA's Tomorrow, their industry would collapse overnight... 

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Posted (edited)

I didn't realise it didn't come with a power supply. I have recently gone up to intermediate licence and never owned a base station before.

Purchase was about 2 weeks ago, cancellation sent by email the next day.

Outward courier was UPS, return Royal Mail special delivery.

Edited by Zamzara

Post by me are intended as a discussion of the issues involved, as these are of general interest to me and others on the forum. Although it is hoped such discussion will be of use to readers, before exposing yourself to risk of loss you should not rely on any principles discussed without confirming the situation with a qualified person.

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Well done on your int ticket!

 

Who is the retailer?

 

And just to confirm from the day of it physically being in your shack, it was within 14 days you notified the retailer you wished to return it.

 

Dx

please don't hit Quote...just type we know what we said earlier..

DCA's view debtors as suckers, marks and mugs

NO DCA has ANY legal powers whatsoever on ANY debt no matter what it's Type

and they

are NOT and can NEVER  be BAILIFFS. even if a debt has been to court..

If everyone stopped blindly paying DCA's Tomorrow, their industry would collapse overnight... 

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Radioworld.

 

Previously had a good relationship with them, so was perhaps complacent about things going well.

Yes I cancelled by email the day after delivery and they acknowledged this.

 

Boxed radio up just before emailing and never touched it again. Wish I hadn't ticked to receive the free gift, as that seems to have complicated everything.


The bloke who phoned me after receiving it was quite unpleasant and seemed to be saying they massively scrutinise returns and are 'really on top of our game' to refuse them. I made a note of this and asked for further communications in writing. 73

Post by me are intended as a discussion of the issues involved, as these are of general interest to me and others on the forum. Although it is hoped such discussion will be of use to readers, before exposing yourself to risk of loss you should not rely on any principles discussed without confirming the situation with a qualified person.

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really radioworld.

they should know better and treat Licenced hams with more dignity and respect if what you say is correct.

 

lets deal with the free speaker mis-issue you have 1st.

the fact it was a free gift is totally immaterial, under your consumer rights act 2015 (DSR went in 2015) its treated as if you purchased it , same rights apply, it came to you damaged, if you were keeping the transceiver it should be replaced FOC.

 

now onto the transceiver, it appears it was damaged upon return to them, was this a new radio or 2nd hand?

 

under CRA 2015 until an online purchase is in your physical possession, you have 14 days to send it back with no reason at all and get a full refund, no quibble.

 

what reason if any in writing did you give as to why you were returning it?
 

dx

please don't hit Quote...just type we know what we said earlier..

DCA's view debtors as suckers, marks and mugs

NO DCA has ANY legal powers whatsoever on ANY debt no matter what it's Type

and they

are NOT and can NEVER  be BAILIFFS. even if a debt has been to court..

If everyone stopped blindly paying DCA's Tomorrow, their industry would collapse overnight... 

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I just said I'd changed my mind about the radio, which was what I was thinking about and experiencing some disappointment at the lack of ability to pursue HF from the home. I should have mentioned the speaker in hindsight but just didn't really care about it enough for it to occur to me and didn't realise it was considered to have more than a trivial value.

 

As far as I'm concerned the radio is not damaged, or marked beyond maybe a fingerprint. He said on the first call they look for anything to stop people trying to return things. Update in last few minutes: Initially he said the unboxing video was on Youtube but now apparently it has to be attached via Whatsapp and they can't get it to work.

Post by me are intended as a discussion of the issues involved, as these are of general interest to me and others on the forum. Although it is hoped such discussion will be of use to readers, before exposing yourself to risk of loss you should not rely on any principles discussed without confirming the situation with a qualified person.

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was the radio new?

 

dx

please don't hit Quote...just type we know what we said earlier..

DCA's view debtors as suckers, marks and mugs

NO DCA has ANY legal powers whatsoever on ANY debt no matter what it's Type

and they

are NOT and can NEVER  be BAILIFFS. even if a debt has been to court..

If everyone stopped blindly paying DCA's Tomorrow, their industry would collapse overnight... 

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Yes

Post by me are intended as a discussion of the issues involved, as these are of general interest to me and others on the forum. Although it is hoped such discussion will be of use to readers, before exposing yourself to risk of loss you should not rely on any principles discussed without confirming the situation with a qualified person.

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ok well lets wait to see this video.

incidentally would you say the radio box had already been opened and checked and not just shipped from their stock without them checking this damage was there before sending it? most do not. they just act as drop shippers.

 

dx

please don't hit Quote...just type we know what we said earlier..

DCA's view debtors as suckers, marks and mugs

NO DCA has ANY legal powers whatsoever on ANY debt no matter what it's Type

and they

are NOT and can NEVER  be BAILIFFS. even if a debt has been to court..

If everyone stopped blindly paying DCA's Tomorrow, their industry would collapse overnight... 

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23 hours ago, dx100uk said:

 

... under CRA 2015 until an online purchase is in your physical possession, you have 14 days to send it back with no reason at all and get a full refund, no quibble...

 

 

Hm.  Are you certain about that?  I thought it was s29 of the legislation I linked to in #2.

 

And not sure how you'd send it back before it's in your possession... 

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Posted (edited)

dx - Not sure about that, I don't recall any sign it had been opened, but couldn't say with certainty.

The video does not seem to be forthcoming so far.

Edited by Zamzara

Post by me are intended as a discussion of the issues involved, as these are of general interest to me and others on the forum. Although it is hoped such discussion will be of use to readers, before exposing yourself to risk of loss you should not rely on any principles discussed without confirming the situation with a qualified person.

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Hi

 

This is there Terms & Condition:

WWW.RADIOWORLD.CO.UK

Shop and purchasing something from our ecommerce store, you agree to be bound by the terms and conditions contained in this document.

 

Now what I noticed with these is you need to go down the webpage to where is states 'Return and Refund Policy'

 

Now look directly above where it states 'Return and Refund Policy' you will notice it states: "International returns".

 

Look at 'Your Order Cancellation Rights' it states: You are entitled to cancel Your Order within 14 days without giving any reason for doing so.

 

Look at 'Conditions for Returns' it states: The Goods are in the original packaging and The Goods were not used or damaged.

(so how are you meant to check the goods were fit for purpose)

 

Look at 'Returning Goods' You are responsible for the cost and risk of returning the Goods to Us.

 

 

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I have sent a 'for the avoidance of doubt' notice of cancellation as I am still within 14 days. My original communications very likely met the test but as I used the term 'return' instead of 'cancel' thought it best to be sure.

Post by me are intended as a discussion of the issues involved, as these are of general interest to me and others on the forum. Although it is hoped such discussion will be of use to readers, before exposing yourself to risk of loss you should not rely on any principles discussed without confirming the situation with a qualified person.

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Unboxing video received from them:


I have thoughts, but would like to hear others' reaction without leading you. 73 - Tom

Post by me are intended as a discussion of the issues involved, as these are of general interest to me and others on the forum. Although it is hoped such discussion will be of use to readers, before exposing yourself to risk of loss you should not rely on any principles discussed without confirming the situation with a qualified person.

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sorry radioworld

the tone of that video is not correct.

 

you already knew or were suspicious the radio was was damaged.

somethings not right here.

 

ask to see the boxing video please or get them to confirm the radio was shipped directly to you having not been opened but trusted manu packaging.

and another example of a returns video to prove they always do them on the floor!!

 

 

the damage to the speaker is immaterial evidence that the owner might have thus damaged the radio, cause the damaged speaker was done by their courier.

 

 

did you inform them the speaker was damaged in transit before you shipped the radio back??

 

 

 

please don't hit Quote...just type we know what we said earlier..

DCA's view debtors as suckers, marks and mugs

NO DCA has ANY legal powers whatsoever on ANY debt no matter what it's Type

and they

are NOT and can NEVER  be BAILIFFS. even if a debt has been to court..

If everyone stopped blindly paying DCA's Tomorrow, their industry would collapse overnight... 

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I didn't inform them about the speaker. With hindisight an oversight but I was really focusing only on the radio itself and a bit emotional about giving it back.

Post by me are intended as a discussion of the issues involved, as these are of general interest to me and others on the forum. Although it is hoped such discussion will be of use to readers, before exposing yourself to risk of loss you should not rely on any principles discussed without confirming the situation with a qualified person.

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Not even during that phonecalls?

 

There is something not sitting right here with radio world's actions to me 

 

They were suspicious the items were already damaged before opening that return.

 

If they do this to every return under the 14 days right to return, you'd think they would have a bench or specific area where there are cameras already etc , not on the floor of what looks the shop itself.

 

Dx

please don't hit Quote...just type we know what we said earlier..

DCA's view debtors as suckers, marks and mugs

NO DCA has ANY legal powers whatsoever on ANY debt no matter what it's Type

and they

are NOT and can NEVER  be BAILIFFS. even if a debt has been to court..

If everyone stopped blindly paying DCA's Tomorrow, their industry would collapse overnight... 

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  • dx100uk changed the title to @radioworld - Dispute about 'damaged' distance selling return

I mentioned it during the phone call yes, but not before.

Post by me are intended as a discussion of the issues involved, as these are of general interest to me and others on the forum. Although it is hoped such discussion will be of use to readers, before exposing yourself to risk of loss you should not rely on any principles discussed without confirming the situation with a qualified person.

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Was that phonecall before they physically got the item back?

 

Dx

please don't hit Quote...just type we know what we said earlier..

DCA's view debtors as suckers, marks and mugs

NO DCA has ANY legal powers whatsoever on ANY debt no matter what it's Type

and they

are NOT and can NEVER  be BAILIFFS. even if a debt has been to court..

If everyone stopped blindly paying DCA's Tomorrow, their industry would collapse overnight... 

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No, they first called me after receiving it, which was also when he first mentioned having this video.

Post by me are intended as a discussion of the issues involved, as these are of general interest to me and others on the forum. Although it is hoped such discussion will be of use to readers, before exposing yourself to risk of loss you should not rely on any principles discussed without confirming the situation with a qualified person.

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I am 100% certain the polystyrene in the radio's box was not damaged when I packed it. I remember being very careful it was sitting flat against the front and back of the radio and that it was quite difficult to fit it in, but when it went in it was flat against it. Not so certain about the speaker box but I don't remember it being torn like that. 

Post by me are intended as a discussion of the issues involved, as these are of general interest to me and others on the forum. Although it is hoped such discussion will be of use to readers, before exposing yourself to risk of loss you should not rely on any principles discussed without confirming the situation with a qualified person.

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Hi

 

i have to agree from watching that video the attitude of them do raise questions that they knew something was amiss with the returned item before looking at it.

 

Even the way they treated the item for an inspection is shocking ripping the radio out of the box not very professional.

 

As for the manuals packaging open what would they expect as you need to read these manuals to setup and operate that equipment again not very professional.

 

Apart from that what they seem to be forgetting is that when you purchase goods you have the physical right to inspect them and make sure they up to specification and working so of course the packaging is going to have been opened to do this.

 

1. Get them to send you a video of the item being boxed and shipped to yourself. or

 

2. Clarification from them that the item shipped was boxed direct from the Manufacturer and not inspected by then before shipping.

 

3. Clarification from them that the item was boxed direct from the Manufacturer but inspected by them before shipping.

 

 

 

 

How to Upload Documents/Images on CAG - **INSTRUCTIONS CLICK HERE**

FORUM RULES - Please ensure to read these before posting **FORUM RULES CLICK HERE**

I cannot give any advice by PM - If you provide a link to your Thread then I will be happy to offer advice there.

I advise to the best of my ability, but I am not a qualified professional, benefits lawyer nor Welfare Rights Adviser.

Please Donate button to the Consumer Action Group

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Now being pressured again.

Tom, what is the situation with this radio. Do you want us to return it to you, or are we buying the radio back?  With best regards, Sam Hayward

They clearly don't understand the law and think they can choose to reject the cancellation, and offer a 'buy back'.

I don't really want this to escalate but he's been so unpleasant about it from the start it seems inevitable.

Post by me are intended as a discussion of the issues involved, as these are of general interest to me and others on the forum. Although it is hoped such discussion will be of use to readers, before exposing yourself to risk of loss you should not rely on any principles discussed without confirming the situation with a qualified person.

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