Inconsiderate driving offence - overtaking & going through a RED light reported by dash-cam footage

[Hippylife]

I have been given the option to plead guilty under single justice procedure or

plead guilty in court or 

plead not guilty

my question is

there is video evidence

I am going to plead guilty

if I decide not to go to court under the single justice can I still appeal their decision and will it be best to get a lawyer

thanks for any reply’s  

[dx100uk]

A lawyer will be a waste of money.

if you are happy you are 100% at fault then sometimes its better to appear in person to show your genuine remorse.

 

Dx

[Man in the middle]

As far as appeals go, decisions made under the Single Justice Procedure are subject to the same rules as those made in the ordinary Magistrates' Court. In fact, apart from the defendant being unable to attend an SJ hearing, there is virtually no difference between the two.

 

If you plead guilty (whether under the SJ procedure or in the normal court) you cannot appeal against your conviction. You can, however, appeal against your sentence. Your appeal must be lodged within 21 days of your conviction and it will be heard in the Crown Court before a judge and two Magistrates (from a different Bench to the one which originally sentenced you). You should bear in mind that the sentencing exercise is conducted afresh and you can be handed a more severe penalty than the one imposed in the lower court. If your appeal fails you will be ordered to pay costs.

 

As an aside, you mention that you have been charged with "inconsiderate driving."  For a prosecution for that offence to succeed there must be evidence that another person has actually  been inconvenienced by your driving. This is covered by RTA S3ZA(4):

 

"A person is to be regarded as driving without reasonable consideration for other persons only if those persons are inconvenienced by his driving." [my emphasis]

 

The CPS charging practice guidelines for the offence says this about the difference between careless driving and inconsiderate driving:

 

"in cases of careless driving the prosecution need not show that any other person was inconvenienced. In cases of inconsiderate driving, there must be evidence that some other user of the road or public place was actually inconvenienced."

 

So does the evidence you have show that some other person was inconvenienced by your driving?

Edited June 23, 2022 by Man in the middle

[Hippylife]

The charge was overtaking at a red light and going through on red someone reported it by dash-cam footage  

 

My main concern is if I get a ban this would mean I  have no way to get to work and I have a child and a mortgage  

[honeybee13]

I think you need to tell us more about what happened on the day please. You have a great adviser in Man in the Middle so tell us more and he may come up with some ideas for you.

 

HB

[Hippylife]

I was approaching the T junction where there are traffic lights the car in front braked on a orange light I overtook them turned right at junction on doing that the lights had gone to red the car behind me captured it on dash-cam and reported it to police 

[dx100uk]

oppss!

 

you wont be doing that again 

i think you are lucky you only got inconsiderate driving.

[Man in the middle]

Before we go into likely the likely sentence, it's important to establish whether you have a defence to this charge. Have you been served with the evidence the police have against you? If so, does it provide any proof of who was inconvenienced by your driving? Is it the person who submitted the dashcam footage?

 

As to the likely sentence, the offence carries between three and nine penalty points or a ban. However, a ban would only be considered for the most serious cases and from your brief description, whilst your driving seems quite bad, I don't think it reaches the top end of seriousness. If you want to see them, the sentencing guidelines are here:

 

Careless Driving (drive without due care and attention) (Revised 2017) – Sentencing

WWW.SENTENCINGCOUNCIL.ORG.UK

 

Those guidelines are for careless driving, but they are used for inconsiderate driving as well. You can see there are three bands of seriousness and from what you have told us I believe your incident fits with the middle band, meaning the court might consider 5 or 6 points. You should note, however, that although the court will listen to anything you have to say (or read what you have submitted if you do not appear in person), if a ban is being considered you have no right to argue about the hardship you may suffer if you are banned. That argument is only available for "totting up" bans.

 

But before you worry about that, it is most important that you look at the evidence to see if it supports the "inconsiderate driving" charge.

 

[mantis shrimp]

"inconvenienced" by the OP. Is that an essential element of this offence? 

Jumping a light and turning right, presumably across a lane of traffic doesn't look good. 

Edited June 23, 2022 by mantis shrimp
purple

[Man in the middle]

47 minutes ago, mantis shrimp said:

"inconvenienced" by the OP. Is that an essential element of this offence? 

 

Yes. See my earlier reply quoting the legislation and the CPS charging practice.

 

Indeed the driving behaviour does not look good. But if the OP has been charged with inconsiderate driving, the prosecution must prove that somebody was inconvenienced. It's insufficient to prove that  they might have been or they could have been. They have to prove that they were.

[mantis shrimp]

Has the OP edited? I cannot see that he has specified the actual charge. 

I forgot to include overtaking a vehicle in front that had stopped to respect the changing light. Add that to jumping the light to turn right. He should be looking at disqualification. Having a child and a mortgage is not licence to be a danger on the roads. 

Maybe dx is wrong again: the OP needs Mr Loophole. 

Edited June 24, 2022 by mantis shrimp

[Man in the middle]

Quote

Has the OP edited? I cannot see that he has specified the actual charge

 

Heading:" Inconsiderate driving offence"

 

I would have thought that had the charge been "Careless Driving" (which does seem the most appropriate) the OP would have said so. Not many people mention "Inconsiderate Driving" unless they are prompted by something on their paperwork.

 

Quote

He should be looking at disqualification

.

Looking at the sentencing guidelines and using the limited information we have, I would suggest not. For a disqualification to be considered there has to be both "Higher Culpability" and "Greater Harm." There's certainly higher culpability present (in the form of aggressive driving, though that's somewhat arguable, depending on the exact circumstances). The only possibility of the court finding "greater harm" is if there was a high level of traffic or pedestrians in the vicinity. If they only find one or the other then the offence sits in Category 2, for which the recommended penalty is 5-6 points. As always, it's impossible to say what the court will find because we only have very limited details and we will not see the video evidence. But that's my "educated guess."

 

But more important than that at this stage is for the OP to confirm what the actual charge is and, if it is "inconsiderate driving", whether there is evidence to support that.

[Hippylife]

I made a post a couple of days ago but I didn't really provide much information so I've made a new post. I've uploaded a few screenshots of the papers I've been sent. There is two photos that I've been sent which are bad quality, I've edited my car out in blue.

This is my version of what happened.

I came to a set of traffic lights which was on green, the car in front braked (hard, not that it matters) as the lights started to change to orange and at that moment I quickly overtook the car in front just as the light turned red

I did go on the opposite side of the road obviously to pass the car in front but on the video it looks like I'm on the wrong side for longer than I should be, but when you turn right at these traffic lights, you do have to cross over slightly if that makes sense.

I was in the wrong.

if I'm banned I will lose my house as I need to drive for work and I have a 3 year old child.

I've been very worried for what the outcome will be for months and I've encountered depression like never before.

My main question is should I pay a solicitor (quoted £680) or should I plead guilty and go to court/not attend court?

Your advice is most appreciated, thank you.

I've uploaded photos of the letters I've received and images of the dash cam footage I was sent although they are bad quality and I've edited my car in blue. 

Would I be better off paying a solicitor?

Man in the middle.

The person who sent their dash cam footage was the car behind me and he left a description of what he saw.

The charge is inconsiderate driving and the proof is the dash cam footage.

I haven't seen the footage myself but have been sent bad quality photos printed on a letter.

SJP+Incicent photos.pdf

[Man in the middle]

6 minutes ago, Hippylife said:

Would I be better off paying a solicitor?

Your choice. None of the evidence you have posted here shows who was inconvenienced by your alleged inconsiderate driving and it does not show how they were inconvenienced (unless that inconvenience stretches to having to submit the footage, which the court should not entertain). In my earlier post (#3) I explained the difference between Careless Driving and Inconsiderate Driving and explained that to secure a conviction for the latter the prosecution must prove that somebody was indeed inconvenienced. I don't see how they can do that from what you've posted here.

 

The danger you face is that at some point, if a prosecution lawyer who knows what he or she is doing gets hold of the papers, they may see fit to amend the charge (probably to one of Careless Driving, of which I'm sure you would be convicted). They can do this right up to the closure of their case at the trial.  You should then be given the opportunity to change your plea (as the offences are materially different) and, if you plead guilty, receive full credit for making that plea at the first opportunity.

 

If it was me I would plead not guilty and opt for a trial. But if you are not confident enough to do that and see it through yourself you may be better off consulting a solicitor. At the very least it might be an idea to have a consultation to get an opinion on how the evidence might support the charge, because to me it doesn't.

[dx100uk]

Thread tidied

Explanation text with your pdf now showing

 

Dx

[BazzaS]

In some of the photo's there was other traffic. Did your driving cause any of them to have to slow down / speed up, and/or change direction?.

[Hippylife]

BazzaS. No one had to slow down or speed up, I was in no ones way.

 

The other car you can just see is the car that went through the green light before the car in front braked for the orange light. I wasn't anywhere near that car, I didn't get close to it.

 

Its one of those traffic lights where it changes quickly and because I actually live there I'm used to people rushing through them and that's what I was doing.

 

The car in front kind of put their brakes on hard as soon as the orange light came on and stupidly I quickly went round him.

 

There was no cars moving at any other direction as the lights hadn't changed at their side from what I remember. I'm certain no cars had to slow down or speed up though and the car in front of me was already braking to a stop.

 

Just had another look at the photo. You can see two cars turning left and one turning right. Those are the two cars that went through the green light before the one in front of me braked for the orange light

[dx100uk]

2 hours ago, Hippylife said:

The car in front kind of put their brakes on hard as soon as the orange light came on and stupidly I quickly went round him.

this should be obv from dashcam footage and is useful to your case. imho.

 

 

[Hippylife]

Here's a better quality photo of the junction.

 

Photo of Junction.pdf

[honeybee13]

So is that road one lane in each direction?

 

HB

[mantis shrimp]

An alternative view is that the OP was too close to the car in front. 

[Hippylife]

Honeybee13.

Yes a lane for each direction.

I crossed over to the other lane to overtake but no cars would be using the lane I went into as it was on red for all other directions.

It stays red on other sides because If someone turns right at the junction they have to cross over the road.

As I was going through the red light I think the other directions were still on red, if not then I know no cars were near me or had to brake/change directions as they were still stationary until I reached the other side.

[BazzaS]

Was there a car to your right?

 

If so, offence made out.

 

(As your light was red, and you can’t be sure their light wasn’t green / you said you “think the light there was red” and they could have been delayed, even momentarily….. but inconvenienced none the less!)

Edited June 27, 2022 by BazzaS

[Man in the middle]

Quote

If so, offence made out

 

Careless driving most certainly would be. So would ignoring a red light. But driving without consideration? Who has been inconvenienced and where is the evidence that shows that?

[Hippylife]

Yes there were cars to my right waiting at the lights. No car started driving from any direction though, I know it's still an offence.

 

If I get a ban I'll lose my job as I use a work van. I won't be able to pay my mortgage etc. Would I be able to plead hardship?

 

I was on holiday when this letter was sent out to me so its been about 10 days now as i only got back on Saturday. I'm going to ring a solicitor after work today.

Edited June 27, 2022 by Hippylife