VCS spycar PCN PAPLOC Now Claimform - Bristol Airport - TWO parking charges in two minutes

[southwestram]

 I'm a taxi driver, based in Bridgwater. I recently (Feb 1st) took a passenger from Bridgwater to Bristol Airport, and dropped them in the short stay (10 minutes) car park, paying my £5 for the privilege. As the customer got out of the car, someone else came to the car and asked if I was available. As a Hackney Carriage, I'm not allowed to pick up passengers when out of my area, and so I explained that I was unable to do so, and drove off to the exit.

As I was exiting the car park, my phone rang, and glancing at the screen, I saw that it was the taxi controller calling. My immediate thought was that the original passenger had left something in the car, and as they were already glancing nervously at their watch as we drove to the airport, this would be something of a calamity if it meant they would miss their flight. Normally I would ignore the call until I could find somewhere to stop, but bearing in mind the above, I stopped my taxi on the main road through the airport to take the call.

A van pulled up directly behind the car.

The controller said that the person in the car park had taken the phone number (from the side of the taxi) and booked a pick up. As I also hold a Private Hire licence, I was able to accept the job. I told her that I would go back into the drop-off car park and pick the new passenger up from in there.

I drove around and went to go into the drop-off car park, only to be met by the passenger, running down the car park entry ramp. I had to stop, otherwise, I would have run them over. As I was saying to him that I needed to get them from inside the car park (that he had prevented me from entering), his fellow passenger then opened the boot of my cab and threw in their luggage and then they got into the back seat together.

Meanwhile, the van that had pulled up behind me when I took the phone call had followed me. 

The time on my parking ticket from the initial drop-off was 18:10 and I left the car park after four minutes. The photographs used on the PCN were timed at 18:17 and 18:18

It is, of course, dark at that time of the day in February. Signs are posted, but impossible to read without stopping the car in any event.

I appealed by writing directly to VCS, who had sent me TWO PCN tickets for £100 each. They rejected both of my appeals, and suggest that my next step is to appeal to IAS. Or pay up!

What, is your opinion on all this? Should I pay? I hear that appealing to IAS is a complete waste of time, but I don't want to trip myself up through not following the correct procedures.

I have spoken to the taxi controller who will provide a statement to corroborate my story, as will the passenger, who provided me with their phone number and email.

I later received a DEMAND FOR PAYMENT of £170 for each of two 'offences' that occurred within one minute of each other. 

Lewis Hamilton remains stationary in the pits for longer than I did on each occasion! 

Now I have received two Letter Before Claims. 

I have replied, asking for an SAR to gather all the information that they have, and also stated that I was seeking debt advice, whilst also refuting the charge.

I should add that I do not own the car, and my name was provided to VCS by the taxi company, from whom I rent the vehicle. (I have not seen the Notice to Keeper, and therefore don't know whether the DVLA request was correctly made by VCS)

Please advise of how I should proceed. Many thanks in advance to those that would take the time to help.

[honeybee13]

Hello, welcome to CAG.

 

You've come to the right place, we know all about airport PCNs. Please don't bother appealing to anyone else, it won't help as you seem to have spotted.

 

For one of the tickets, could you let us have the information requested in the forum sticky thread please? That will help us to start dissecting their 'case'.

 

 

 

Best, HB

[lookinforinfo]

I know it is easy for me to say but just relax. VCS are a bunch of crooks and that is proved by the fact that they have added an unlawful £70 to each bill.  Plus No Stopping does not offer a contract so you broke no contract despite what VCS try to say.

 

Once you have filled out the questions on post 2 could you please also fill out this one.

We don't charge you £170 to fill out our forms and what we learn from them saves you £340  so its not a bad deal.

[honeybee13]

LFI, you're the expert but I thought the OP said they'd had letters before claim rather than a court claim?

 

HB

[southwestram]

1 Date of the infringement Feb 1st 2022

 

2 Date on the NTK [this must have been received within 14 days from the 'offence' date] I don't know as I am not the keeper

 

3 Date received NTK ws received by taxi company, from whom I rent the car
 

4 Does the NTK mention schedule 4 of The Protections of Freedoms Act 2012? [Y/N?] Not known
 

5 Is there any photographic evidence of the event? Yes
 

6 Have you appealed? [Y/N?] post up your appeal] Yes
 

Have you had a response? [Y/N?] post it up Yes
 

7 Who is the parking company? VCS

 

8. Where exactly [carpark name and town] Bristol Airport No Stopping Zone
 

For either option, does it say which appeals body they operate under.

IPC
 

There are two official bodies, the BPA and the IAS. If you are unsure,

please check International Parking Community

 

If you have received any other correspondence, please mention it here Appeal Rejection, Demand for Payment, Letter Before Claim


Regarding the attached PDFs - I have not included the pro-forma pages for each PCN, so as to not upload unnecessary files. Suffice to say, they are identical in that there are forms for each PCN.

I also have witness statements from the taxi controller and the second passenger.

 

 

 

 

 

My apologies. PDF is now redacted as per instruction, and all personal information removed and anything I can see that might identify the case

 

docs.pdf

[southwestram]

In response, as soon as I hear from them or the court, I will upload. Thanks so much. I was considering driving to the airport and videoing the driver's view from my dashcam to show how it would be impossible to read these signs whilst driving.

[dx100uk]

You've not got any court claimform, you have 2 letters of claim. These need to be replied to by day 30 of each one with a snotty letter.

 

The are quite a few Bristol VCS threads with good info on how these spycars operate and why no stopping is not enforceable by a private parking scammer as it's a byelaw violation that's only the airport owner can enforce via penalty charge notice and a magistrates court fine .

 

Dx

 

 

[AndyOrch]

1 hour ago, southwestram said:

1 Date of the infringement Feb 1st 2022

 

2 Date on the NTK [this must have been received within 14 days from the 'offence' date] I don't know as I am not the keeper

 

3 Date received NTK ws received by taxi company, from whom I rent the car
 

4 Does the NTK mention schedule 4 of The Protections of Freedoms Act 2012? [Y/N?] Not known
 

5 Is there any photographic evidence of the event? Yes
 

6 Have you appealed? [Y/N?] post up your appeal] Yes
 

Have you had a response? [Y/N?] post it up Yes
 

7 Who is the parking company? VCS

 

8. Where exactly [carpark name and town] Bristol Airport No Stopping Zone
 

For either option, does it say which appeals body they operate under.

IPC
 

There are two official bodies, the BPA and the IAS. If you are unsure,

please check International Parking Community

 

If you have received any other correspondence, please mention it here Appeal Rejection, Demand for Payment, Letter Before Claim


Regarding the attached PDFs - I have not included the pro-forma pages for each PCN, so as to not upload unnecessary files. Suffice to say, they are identical in that there are forms for each PCN.

I also have witness statements from the taxi controller and the second passenger.

 

Uploads unapproved not fully redacted.

 

Andy

[dx100uk]

dont use a PDF editor

all you blanking can be removed.

redact as JPG then merge to PDF.

 

read our upload guide carefully

 

dx

 

[dx100uk]

nope sorry

post hidden again

you must remove YOUR personal details like name address etc

you must also remove ay details that THEY can use to find you here

like PCN number , ref number, barcodes QRcodes, and any little lines of text in the margins that might have ID numbers they can use to ID you.

 

dx

 

[lookinforinfo]

22 hours ago, honeybee13 said:

LFI, you're the expert but I thought the OP said they'd had letters before claim rather than a court claim?

 

HB

I am so sorry to mislead you Southwestram.

 

And thank you for the heads up saucebox. x  Expert indeed.

.

[southwestram]

Not a problem.

I just wrote to their Data Protection Officer with a SAR, and explaining that I will be seeking debt advice, so as to delay it still further, but eventually, it appears I will be dragged in front of the beak.

I will drive to Bristol airport one of these rainy nights to use my dashcam to get a record of their signage. They stated in their rejection of my appeal that their signage is reflective, but as it faces out onto the road, a driver's headlights won't reflect the light back towards the driver. 

How can I get a copy of the NDK if the taxi company no longer have it? Can I request a copy? Or would it come as part of the SAR reply?

Has a 'byelaw defence' been shown to suceed with regards to Bristol airport?

I'm naturally a bit nervous about all this as they are now asking for almost £500 for the two breaches.

Any help is appreciated

[honeybee13]

Soutwestram, have you read any of the other Bristol airport threads here? I can't see that you have, unless  you weren't signed in.

 

The quickest way to understand how these people work is to read threads from people who are further along the line than you. And it stops us having to repeat ourselves.

 

HB

[dx100uk]

Who's data protection officer are You blindly writing too?

Nowhere do we say do that, esp as you are giving away pers info you are in debt! None of their business! 

 

If you want correct debt advice start a new topic on here. Dont go running to a stupid free or even fee charging debt advice org, you'll get ripped off!!

 

Dx

[lookinforinfo]

Southwestram well done for kicking your case further down the line. You could still be months away from a Court hearing since they usually try to scare you into paying up before a court case since they lose money on them even when they do win. So they use semi illiterate debt collectors sending threat after threat and ever increasing amounts owed as well as several final warning letters before actually trying to take you to Court. they don't take every non payer to court but as you have two tickets you will probably be in the frame .

 

Not to worry.  Coming out later this year or early next year are new parking laws which are much more favourable to the motorist. It is called the Private Parking Code of Practice. The closer we get to the start of the new Act the more likely that Judges will be forced to take the new rules into consideration especially as some are clarifications of the current Protection of Freedoms Act 2012.

 

For instance in the new Act  Annex F1  Exempt Circumstances

g) a vehicle paused on a private road network simply because the driver needs to check directions e.g. on an industrial estate where the driver has a legitimate need to access premises within that estate.

That would apply to you.

 

Also in Section 5.3  Prohibition on Stopping

Part of it states "Parking operators must only pursue parking charges in instances that could be interpreted as stopping if they have explicit consent to do so on evidenced security or safety grounds from their conformity assessment body, following audit of the adequacy of the signs and surface markings in place to inform drivers of the restrictions in place."

 

So your u-turning in the early hours of the morning with little traffic about is unlikely to impress any Court that you were impinging on security or safety grounds.

 

So just ignore all their claptrap for now. They are only scary if you actually believe them and you have no reason to believe them as they are a bunch of lying con artists. And any charges above the £100 on their signs are unlawful.

 

Just keep a look out for a letter from them or their low life solicitors which contain a heading Pre Action Protocol or Court Action let us know and we will get you to end them a snotty response to show that you are not bothered by them. And then let them decide whether they have the bottle to take it further. 

After that it could be Witness Statement time and we should be able to concoct something that will make them think twice about actually going to Court. {They have been losing a lot of cases against us as well as abandoning some cases just before the Court hearing.

 

 

[southwestram]

I've written to their Data Protection Officer via email because a SAR will take them time and cost them money, and it shows me what information they hold prior to going to court. Taking debt advice, according to what I've read, means that the case gets put on hold for another month. Which costs them more money. As it happens, I'm barely in debt at all, partially because I try to resist that form of temptation, and partly because there are only a few foolish enough to lend me money in the first place 

They sent me a form, on which they expect me to detail my monthly outgoings and my income, but it, along with all the other bumpf will stay uncompleted.

I have been reading people's cases, trying to establish a path to follow, a defence that doesn't contradict itself.

I'm leaning towards relying on a defence that there could be no contract because;

• Byelaws prevent a private parking company from imposing a contract on land accessible by the public
• The signs don't offer a contract, merely a punishment
• Stopping is not parking, and a period of grace should be allowed

I don't want to have to defend my actions, because in doing so, I would be acknowledging, or assuming they have the right to prosecute, and so at this stage, I think I should be relying on an argument about their right to issue a PCN for the breach in the first place.

However, I am here for advice, not to display any innate ability to choose a line of defence. As my wife would testify, I usually show no such abilities.

Edited June 23, 2022 by southwestram

[dx100uk]

You are getting very involved in stuff you don't need to address yet - if at all 

 

You don't have a court claim, you only have a letter of claim, which needs a reply within 30 Days by one of our snotty letters.

 

Dx

[lookinforinfo]

I would be surprised if your cab company have discarded the PCNS that were sent abut you. Can you ask them for copies of the PCNS. Should VCS take you to Court they will have to produce them when they send you their Witness Statement.

 

What Byelaws do is prevent the parking crooks from transferring the debt to the keeper should the driver not pay. As your cab company have outed you as the driver and absolved themselves of any further action in your case, the Bye Laws don't help you.

 

What does help are things like the signage. As they are forbidding, they cannot form a contract with motorists. If the font size is too small to be read by a passing car, especially in the dark they can be other reasons to win against them. Normally there is no grace period when stopping wasn't allowed anyway.  Then you have poor signage directions, causing you to take a wrong turn. There are also questions about the contract between VSC and the landowner. In addition if their signage states that they can charge more than £100 for debt collection could make that sign unlawful and as they always overcharge  their whole case is flawed. And then there are the mistakes that the para legals make when completing their Witness Statement.

 

So there are many chances that you can win on though many won't be known until the Witness Statement stage. So no point in worrying away at the moment and certainly no cause to write and appeal until you are at the Court stage and you are not there .

[southwestram]

UPDATE: This morning I received two letters from ELMS Legal Ltd, which suggest that I contact them as a matter of urgency.

As I understand it from the comments received so far, I should ignore these, file them with everything else and await court papers. Is this correct?

[lookinforinfo]

Just ignore them. 

You are in charge of the situation  not Elms. All they want is to frighten you into thinking you have no chance of winning which is untrue.

 

Just send a snotty letter-they won't understand it quite probably as they are below amoeba intelligence levels, but they will notice the fact that you haven't paid.

[FTMDave]

Until you get a Letter Before Claim, just ignore them.  Anything else is hot air from paper tigers.

 

Come back here immediately though if a Letter Before Claim does turn up.

[southwestram]

@FTMDave- I already received two Letters Before Claim, but as per the comments above, have put them into the pile. I replied, asking for an SAR, and also told them I was seeking debt advice, while also denying that I owed them anything at all. I was told to wait until I received a Pre Action Protocol or Court Action, as per post #15 above.

[FTMDave]

Apologies, I've just read your thread right from the start, as I should have done before, and realised about the Letters Before Claim.

 

A LBC and PAPLOC are the same thing.  So you need to reply with a snotty letter.

 

VCS are chancers and take the majority of motorists who don't pay them to court.

 

However, we have three cases where VCS have sent their LBCs ... for stopping at a zebra crossing.  Really - I'm not joking!  However in these three cases VCS, spivs though they are, have not been so stupid as to start court action.  Therefore what might save you is if you emphasise to Simple Simon that you were not prepared to commit murder to respect Simon's silly signs when someone jumped out in front of you, and you are confident a judge would conclude that actual homicide would be a step too far.

 

 

[southwestram]

I was lucky in that the fellow that caused me to stop as I was trying to enter the drop-off car park gave me his email address in case of such problems arising. I recently wrote to him, asking for a witness statement, to which he replied thusly.

Dear Mr XXXXXX

I am writing to confirm my recollection of the events of <DATE>.

With two friends, I had arrived at Bristol airport; we came to the drop off area in the hope of finding a taxi. I approached you; you informed me that you could not pick up fares unbooked, and proceeded to leave the drop off car park.

I rang the office number on your taxi in an attempt to book you. By the time I spoke to the office you had left the car park; the office indicated that they would contact you. As I saw your looping round to leave the airport, I ran across to catch you; I was grateful that you stopped as otherwise there was a risk that you may have run me over (I was keen to grab you before you left the airport).

As I recall my friend, opened your boot in order to put in our luggage as I spoke to you; you may have moved out of the way before he did this to prevent any obstruction.

We very gratefully got into your taxi and your drove us to Bristol.

Your taxi was stationary for less than a minute.

I am very sorry that you have been fined for stopping - I would not have attempted to stop you if I had been aware that you would get into trouble. But I am very grateful that you did stop as otherwise I think you may have run me over.

Yours

XXX XXXXXX

I will also get a witness statement from the controller that phoned me from the office, to confirm that it would be only as a matter of urgency that they would call a driver.

 

The controller was on the phone throughout, and it was them that explained to the passenger that I was going to loop round to pick them up from the drop-off car park.

[FTMDave]

All this pre-emptive work you've done is excellent.  Well done.  It will stand you in good stead if you end up in court.

 

However, you're not at court yet.  The stage you're at is that VCS, who are serial litigators, are threatening you with court, and the only thing that might just put them off is if they know you would put up a big fight and hammer them in court.

 

That's why you need to reply with a snotty letter that underlines that you weren't prepared to commit murder in order to follow what is written on their silly signs.  Draft something and post it up.