Horizon PCN - 5 mins stay in parent/child bay - Tesco extra Hamilton Leicester - Final Reminder Letter Only

[tosh1]

Hi

 

I received a Final Letter notice this morning as I parked in a supermarket parent and child space. I knew I should not have but I was only 5 minutes in and out.

 

 I did NOT receive the first letter and the first I heard about it was the Final Reminder Notice. The ticket should have been for £30 but am now being charged £80

 

I am unable to appeal as they state the time has passed.

 

Is there anything that I can do?

 

Regards

 

TOSH1

[tosh1]

1 The date of infringement? 14 March 2022
 

2 Have you yet appealed to the parking company yet? [Y/N?] No as I am unable to as the deadline has passed
 

irrelevant Q's skipped
 

5 Who is the parking company? Horizon
 

6. Where exactly [Carpark name and town] did you park? Tesco Hamilton Leicester

 

[dx100uk]

As the sticky says you dont appeal!! 

 

Is the cars v5c registered to you at your present address? Not moved in recent times have you and forgot to update it?

 

Dx

[tosh1]

Thanks for the reply.

 

The car is regestered to my home address and I have not moved.

 

 

[dx100uk]

Weird. Ok so its std horizon practice to abuse pofa etc.

 

The parking warden should have put a ticket on your windscreen not spied upon you via cctv.

 

Pers id just ignore everything and see if/when you ever get a letter of claim. Then you can force them to produce the ticket, the notice to keeper and all other paperwork and it will be faulty date wise i bet and we'll pull them apart.

 

Ps how do you know what you did wrong, does the letter say so?

scan it up both sides to one pdf so we have it

 

Dx

 

 

[tosh1]

ok, should I write to them and tell them that I did not receive the first notice

 

Also, should I complain to Tesco?

[lookinforinfo]

 

No don't write to Horizon telling them that you did not receive the first PCN. They already know.

But do send them an sar .

 

That way  you should find out where the original PCN went and we can see if it was compliant.

 

After  you have received the original PCN then it would be a good idea to write to Tesco.

 

Hopefully Horizon will have made mistakes on the PCN which might help Tesco to cancel the ticket

[dx100uk]

How do horizon know you were not supposed to park and you had no kids in the car?

 

well they are either using a CCTV system to spy at cars and passengers , not allowed under gdpr rules etc etc or there is warden taking photos or someeone on site dobbing people in for a backhander and its taken a few weeks to view the cctv or be sent the photos. Hence nothing enforceable sent to date. They are simply hoping you are a mug and blindly cough up.

 

pers in this case i would not send an sar or anything as it will alert them you know something is up.

 

Await the/if letter of claim..let's see how brave they are.

 

Dx

[Homer67]

No such scheme as Parent & Child bays anyway, all road markings on private land are graffiti and unenforceable under any law.

[Ethel Street]

I wouldn't contact Tesco because what would be your grounds for asking them get the PCN withdrawn?

 

Surely Tesco will ask you to confirm whether you did in fact have a child with you when parked in the Parent and Child bay? And the only honest answer you could give to that would be 'No'. At which point Tesco are unlikely to use their discretion to get the ticket withdrawn just because of procedural faults in how the PPC dealt with it.  I'm guessing here, but aren't Tesco going to take the view that you have admittd to being guilty of parking where you shouldn't and wash their hands of it?

[Ethel Street]

18 minutes ago, Homer67 said:

No such scheme as Parent & Child bays anyway, all road markings on private land are graffiti and unenforceable under any law.

 

That's not correct. 

 

If a private car park operator includes in their contract conditions that only certain users can use designated bays that's enforceable under the contract the same as any other condition in their contract.

 

Of course, as we know, the car park operators frequently fail to notify the parking contract conditions correctly or fail to use proper procedures to issue PCNs, but if they do get it correct Parking + Child bays, Blue Badge bays, etc, in private car parks are enforceable as a breach of contract (not as a criminal or civil offence obviously).

[Homer67]

@Ethel Street ok, for the sake of clarity could admin remove my post please?

[Ethel Street]

7 minutes ago, Homer67 said:

@Ethel Street ok, for the sake of clarity could admin remove my post please?

 

No point, it would still be quoted in my reply. And my reply only makes sense as a response to your post.

[FTMDave]

Nothing wrong with an exchange of opinions on a forum, it's how we all learn from each other 

[lookinforinfo]

 

Lots of uncertainties about whether to contact Horizon for an sar or Tesco. 

 

My suggestion to contact Tesco was after finding out if the original PCN was non compliant.  Most of the ones I have checked in the past have been for several different reasons. That means that the liability for the alleged debt cannot be transferred to the keeper.

 

Once it is confirmed that the PCN is non compliant the OP can write to Tesco as the keeper pointing out that as the keeper he has no responsibility for the debt and has been denied the facility of appealing to POPLA because of the NTK not being received  at all. POPLA may well have cancelled on appeal because of no keeper liability. 

 

In addition  the stoppage in the car park was for less than the consideration period. The keeper could then add if it was true, that the driver was an infrequent patron of this particular car park and the keeper will ensure that a similar occurrence does not happen in the future.

 

One could point out that if the camera operator had thought that they had not observed any children in the car, from the Court's point of view they would have expected the operator to have attempted to mitigate the situation by explaining to the driver that they should either move the car to avoid a ticket or explain where the children were [ref. Jopson v Homeguard].

 

Then perhaps it could have  been explained that the wife and children were dropped off at the entrance or the children and their mother were already in the store and the driver was there to collect them.

 

[They should also have issued a windscreen ticket since they were in the vicinity but of course that would have meant that they would have had to wait several weeks longer to be paid. It is a practice frowned upon but overused by greedy  car parking companies].

 

The above paragraph obviates the need to  admit parking wrongly and suggesting possible  reasons for parking there without admitting that either scenario actually happened.

 

 

 

[lookinforinfo]

DX  I am not sure what sending an sar to Horizon would alert them to. Obviously if the NTK was sent to the wrong address Horizon would realise why the SAR was sent. But if the NTK was correctly addressed so  then it was either lost in the post or misdirected, Horizon would not know why the sar was called for.

Nevertheless they are duty bound to send the info requested. And as Horizon usually send out non compliant PCNs then the OP need not be so concerned about paying it and only has to prevent Horizon from knowing who was driving.

 

 

[dx100uk]

just to clarify one matter everyone....

 

the statement that 'all road markings within any private land/carpark are mere tarmac graffiti is quite correct.

 

for dedicated use bays - there has to be a clearly visible sign(s) if one parks in those bays, which must be covered by the relevant council planning permission for poles+signs and elsewhere there must be a sign that details their usage conditions/contract.

 

dx

[Homer67]

@dx100ukthat puts it way better than I said