Parking Eye ANPR PCN 12 mins overstay on free 1hrs - Two Saints, Ormskirk, Lancs.

[NotQuiteTheRock]

Hi all!

 

I've recently received a PCN in the post from Parking Eye for overstaying in the Two Saints Retail Park car park for 12 minutes 12 seconds, their classic "spend £60 now before it goes up to £100" deal.

 

I've submitted on online appeal to Parking Eye, attached with proof that I shopped at Aldi and Poundstretcher that day (both stores on the retail park). The full message I wrote in the appeal is as follows:

 

"The registered keeper received a parking charge notice for the above vehicle. The driver is appealing the charge for the following reason:

 

The BPA establishes that a discretionary period of a minimum of 10 minutes must apply. As a member of the BPA, ParkingEye should therefore cancel the ticket as the alleged breach is de minimis."

 

I am the registered keeper of the vehicle and was driving that day. I've since received an email attached with a document in response to my appeal, neither confirming nor denying my appeal. They have responded with:

 

"You have stated that you were not the driver of the vehicle at the date and time of the breach of the terms and conditions of the car park, but you have not indicated who was.

You have already been notified that under section 9(2)(b) of schedule 4 of the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012 that the driver of the motor vehicle is required to pay this parking charge in full. As we do not know the driver’s name or current postal address, if you were not the driver at the time, you should tell us the full name and the current postal address of the driver."

 

They have also stated that if the 'charge' is not paid in full after 29 days and they do not know the name and address of the driver, then they have the right to recover any unpaid part of the parking charge from the registered keeper.

 

They then added that "if you have made or wish to make an appeal on behalf of the driver, and you do not provide the full name and current postal address of the driver, ParkingEye will be obliged to deal with the representations made in your name."

 

They have put the charge on hold for 28 days in order to allow me time to respond to their response.

 

 

 

Essentially, I just want to know where to go from here and what process I should follow going ahead. They've said that they will provide a POPLA code if my appeal is denied, but I don't want to provide them any information now that later might bite me in the backside.

Any help you lot can provide would be wonderful. Thanks!

 

 

[dx100uk]

please complete this:

 

 

next time dont appeal ever

 

scan up every letter bothsides inc the org PCN, and you appeal and their full reply.

to ONE multipage PDF

read upload.

 

the fact there is no maximum grace period, and that the new CoP introduces at least 15mins, they'll never go anywhere near a court.

 

dx

 

[NotQuiteTheRock]

Hey! Here's the questionnaire.

 

1 Date of the infringement -

26/03/22

 

2 Date on the NTK [this must have been received within 14 days from the 'offence' date] -

31/03/22
 

PCN 26-03-22.pdf

 

3 Date received -

02/04/22
 

4 Does the NTK mention schedule 4 of The Protections of Freedoms Act 2012? [Y/N?] 

Y
 

5 Is there any photographic evidence of the event?

Yes, two photographs of entry and exit.
 

6 Have you appealed? [Y/N?] post up your appeal]

Y

 

"The registered keeper received a parking charge notice for the above vehicle. The driver is appealing the charge for the following reason:

 

The BPA establishes that a discretionary period of a minimum of 10 minutes must apply. As a member of the BPA, ParkingEye should therefore cancel the ticket as the alleged breach is de minimis."

 

Have you had a response? [Y/N?] post it up

Y

 

Parking Eye Appeal Response 04-04-22.pdf

 

7 Who is the parking company?

Parking Eye.

 

8. Where exactly [carpark name and town]

Two Saints in Ormskirk.
 

For either option, does it say which appeals body they operate under.

Yes, BPA.

 

 

 

Why do you say to never appeal, just out of curiosity? The only reason I did was because somebody else on this forum got a PCN for the same car park and was told to submit an appeal.

Parking Eye £100 PCN 10 minute overstay. Two Saints, Lancs, **WON AT POPLA** - Page 2 - Private Land Parking Enforcement - Consumer Action Group

Be good to know the reasoning for next time (but hopefully won't ever have to deal with it again!)

 

Thanks!

[dx100uk]

await the notice to keeper which should come soon.

that transfers it to the keeper , then appeal the same again as the keeper. 

a 12min overstay of the free 1hours is not a crime.

the present association rules state 10mins minimum and no stated max overstay...

 

i suspect that @LookingForInfo will pop in an add the new CoP details so your 2nd appeal can be stronger.

 

dx

[brassnecked]

You might  have outed yourself as the driver in that appeal, so lose the protection of POFA, however there are other ways to kick PE, you went to two stores on the site so their time limit might be too short, also 12 minutes isn't really a good ground for an invoice given the new law brought in in 2019, but just being implemented now Other's will be along soon to help further.

[Homer67]

And that's why you never ever appeal to a PPC, they will simply use it against you.

 

The example you asked about was a case where the driver wanted to identify themselves to the PPC to avoid the Keeper getting the notices - hence the advice to appeal as the driver.

Edited April 5, 2022 by Homer67
extra text

[NotQuiteTheRock]

Ah I see. Okay, so essentially for the time being, I'm just playing a waiting game for the Notice to Keeper? Then I basically send the same appeal I did previously, just in the capacity of the Keeper rather than the driver?

I guess no two cases are ever the same, eh? I'll think better next time before appealing lmao.

[lookinforinfo]

You have the perfect response to Parking Eye. All their PCNs are non PoFA compliant and all for the same reason. 

 

Under PoFA 2012  the period of parking must be included as per Schedule 4 s9 [2][a]

(2)The notice must—

(a)specify the vehicle, the relevant land on which it was parked and the period of parking to which the notice relates;

 

They show the time of arrival and the time of departure which the poor deluded souls seem to think that it complies with PoFA.

 

Granted you may have been in the car park for as long as they say but

were you parked for that long? Of course not.

You had to find a place to park.

then drive in to the parking spot taking a second try perhaps in order to park between the lines.

Then you leave your parking spot and drive to the exit which may be delayed by pedestrians or other traffic on the way. 

 

So your actual period of parking could even have been less than one hour.

 

They have no way of disproving that with their system and we have an ongoing case at the moment where a lady was stuck in her car for twenty minutes trying to get out of a car park at a busy time.

 

I rather think their failure to observe  9[2][a] tops their 9[2][b] by a country mile.

 

This is what the new PoFA states

 

"2.24 parking period

the length of time that a vehicle has been parked, i.e. left stationary otherwise than in the course of driving, after any relevant consideration period has expired (excluding instances where the driver has stopped to enable passengers to leave or enter the vehicle)

 

This is not the period between a vehicle being recorded as entering and departing controlled land."

 

So the new Act confirms what he current Act of 2012 already laid down. Sadly the greed of the parking companies has conflated the period of parking with the entering and leaving the car park.

 

It will be hard for the poor dears at Parking Eye and POPLA to get their heads around this as BPA do not even mention what the period of parking is in their Code of Practice!  One wonders why the DVLA put so much store in the Codes of Conduct of BPA and ISC.

[NotQuiteTheRock]

Gotta say, I can feel your sheer disdain for these parking companies and I'm living for it.

[lookinforinfo]

Well they have been ripping off motorists for years and many who unlike yourself have not  checked out the validity of the claims made by the parking crooks have paid well over the odds for what is a comparatively minor offence. So it is rather galling when BPA come out and complain that the new PoFA will bankrupt some of their members And it is very hard to feel any sympathy for them.

 

  

[Homer67]

20 hours ago, NotQuiteTheRock said:

Ah I see. Okay, so essentially for the time being, I'm just playing a waiting game for the Notice to Keeper? Then I basically send the same appeal I did previously, just in the capacity of the Keeper rather than the driver?

I guess no two cases are ever the same, eh? I'll think better next time before appealing lmao.

No!!! You never appeal, that just encourages them, just wait to see if you get a Letter Before Claim then you send a snotty letter.

[NotQuiteTheRock]

Hey folks, been a while!

So I got an email from ParkingEye today denying my appeal (I know, I shouldn't have appealed in the first place!).

They've provided me with a POPLA code. Where do I go from here? What do I say in my POPLA appeal?

 

I've attached the document they sent in case it helps.

 

Thanks,

James

Appeal Denial with POPLA Code.pdf

[FTMDave]

Just ignore them, and ignore POPLA too who are in the PPCs' pocket.

 

The government's new Code of Practise sets the grace/consideration period as 15 minutes so they are on a hiding to nothing.

 

That's aside from one hour being an unfair term in a car park with multiple supermarkets, a term everything to do with trying to catch motorists out and nothing to do with sensible management of a car park.

 

Come back here though if they send you a Letter of Claim.

 

Invest some time too in looking up planning permission for the car park - I bet there was no one-hour limit.

[dx100uk]

On 06/04/2022 at 12:27, Homer67 said:

No!!! You never appeal, that just encourages them, just wait to see if you get a Letter Before Claim then you send a snotty letter.

 

[lookinforinfo]

Just sit back and relax knowing that whatever they say they will lose in Court should they stupidly decide to take you to Court. We had a similar case to yours last week or  so but for 13 minutes over time. They discontinued but kept pressing up to the last minute hoping that the motorist would cough up. They are a venal bunch.

 

 

[NotQuiteTheRock]

Message received.  I'll sit smugly at my computer waiting for them to threaten me.

Thanks everyone, taken a weight off my mind.

[NotQuiteTheRock]

Hey folks!

 

So I received a Letter Before County Court Claim yesterday. I've attached it just in case you need to see it.

Next steps?

 

Thanks!

Letter Before County Court Claim.pdf

[FTMDave]

Time to send them a snotty letter to show you'd just be big trouble for them if they were daft enough to do court.

[NotQuiteTheRock]

What should I say? Not exactly sure how to word it.

[honeybee13]

You need to do a search of  CAG for other people's snotty letters to firms like PE.

 

HB

[FTMDave]

Something like -

 

 

Dear Phil & Sian,

 

cheers for your Letter Before Claim.  I rolled around on the floor in mirth at the idea you actually thought I'd take such tripe seriously and cough up!

 

One thing I will give you.  You're quick off the mark with your court threats.  Frightened of the new government regulations are we, trying to sneak your claims through before it's too late?

 

Go and read Annex B of the government Code of Practice, dumbos.

 

You can either drop this foolishness now or get a thrashing in court.  It's up to you.  If the latter I will enjoy obtaining an unreasonable costs order under CPR 27.14(2)(g) and spending it all on a nice foreign holiday while all the time laughing at you.

 

I look forward to your deafening silence.

 

 

However, there's no point doing it immediately, you have 30 days.  Make a note to send the letter around 18 July.  Make sure you get a free Certificate of Posting from the post office.

[FTMDave]

On 11/05/2022 at 13:14, FTMDave said:

Invest some time too in looking up planning permission for the car park - I bet there was no one-hour limit.

Have you done this?

[NotQuiteTheRock]

18 minutes ago, FTMDave said:

Have you done this?

Briefly, but I have no idea what I'm supposed to be looking for.

[FTMDave]

What often happens is this.  The council grants PP for, say, three hours' free parking.  Later the fleecers come in, realise they can't make any money that way, and invent their own limit which is unlawful.

 

So you need to look up (a) what the original car park limit was on the original PP and (b) when the fleecers came in if they bothered to get PP for their signs.

 

Most councils have a portal where you can do this,.  If you can't fight owt, e-mail the appropriate council department and ask.

 

It's not essential you do this as you're not being taken to court but the more information you have the better and it could help others down the line.

 

 

[honeybee13]

Crossed posts with FTM Dave.

 

I know I keep nagging people about this but you don't seem to have read any other parking threads apart from your own. There's a limit to how much hand-holding we can do and as you'll be the one putting your case to the judge, it's important that you understand how it all works.

 

All councils have a planning portal on their websites, you can search the relevant one to see what PP has been granted to that particular car park and for what period of parking, as Dave says.

 

HB