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Post Office/Bank of Ireland. credit card - CCJ & Restriction sold to cabot - reduced settlement?


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Hi all,

 

We wrote to all our creditors following a change in circumstances which meant we couldn't afford full monthly payments. We did a pro-rata offer of payment, and have been sending it for 3 months.

 

Bank of Ireland (credit card) issued a Default Notice a few weeks ago, and today (of all days!) we've received a letter from Geoffrey Parker Bourne Solicitors, acting on behalf of their client BoI.

 

They've given us 7 days to to make full payment, or a County Court Claim MAY be issued without further warning.

 

They go on to ask us to ring them to make payment.

 

Obviously we are really worried by this. The card was only taken out about 18 months - 2 years ago, when times were good for us.

 

Now they're not so good, we made a genuine offer of payment based on our circumstances, and the payment was fairly split between creditors as a percentage of the debt we owe. This, as I understand, is how the Court would "split" it?

 

Can anyone offer any urgent advice or suggest what course of action we should take?

 

I have the facility to fax these solicitors so thqat will save a bit of time over the Christmas period. Interestingly, they ask me to call them within 7 days of their letter (dated 21st december, received 24th December), which gives me till 28th December, but of course 25, 26, 27,& 28 are Bank Holidays...

 

Should I write to them, reiterate our circumstances and offer of payment, and point out that a CCJ will get them nowhere other than securing our payment offer indefinitely?

 

HELP PLEASE!!!

 

Cheers, and happy Christmas to all...

 

BL

Well 6 years on and most of the defaults have disappeared, thank you CAG for a

ll your help

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Have they responded at all to your offer to pay?

 

If not, reply to GPB enclosing a copy of the original letter to BoI and asking why it has not been responded to. Tell them you find their action unacceptable given you have made a proposal to pay.

 

Copy this to Bank of Ireland and demand a response, asking why legal action has been threatened while your payment proposal has been ignored.

 

Suggest you send recorded. Keep everything in writing and don't phone them.

 

If they take legal action while not dealing with your reasonable payment proposal, they'll look silly - and a court would only make you pay what you can afford!

 

If you want to annoy them further, you should do a CCA request (£1), though I would expect such a recent agreement to be compliant (and it's the new regs, so 1974 regs won't apply). £10 will buy you a subject access request which will undoubtedly show some charges you can reclaim.

“The industry is rotten to the core, whether it is in-house recovery and collection, or where agents are used, or where the debt has been sold.” Andrew Mackinley MP, House of Commons, 22 April 2009

 

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GPB is a Solicitor for rent who allows his notepaper to be used for threatomatics.

 

I got several of those from 'him' and still waiting for his legal action.

 

A lot of DCAs send scary letters out at this time of the year to panic people into pjoning their threat centres

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Hi DonkeyD,

 

quick summary - we wrote initially with SOA & Creditor list on September.

 

Apart from the usual monthly statements and £12 late payment fee letters, the next correspondence was a Default Notice sent at the end of October.

 

That same day, a letter was sent to us saying they would not accept our reduced payment offer as it was not sufficient to meet the minimum payment as required by our terms & conditions (2.5% of the balance).

 

They went on to say that interest & charges can only be suspended if the account is referred to their legal dept, and that a default notice has been issued which expires mid November. The account will now be referred to legal department.

 

The only charges we could claim are the most recent default fees, as it was totally up to date until September.

 

So to summarise, they did respond to our letter, explaining that they wouldn't accept it.

 

Do I now write to the solictors with a SOA & creditor list, asking for understanding (knowing that I will not get any!!)

 

 

Cheers

 

BL

Well 6 years on and most of the defaults have disappeared, thank you CAG for a

ll your help

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Can you post up the Default Notice after removing identifying details?

Anthrax alert at debt collectors caused by box of doughnuts

 

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I would simply repeat your offer. It will cost them to go to court, and they may not get as much as you are offering once a court sets a payment amount. They know this. They are trying to scare you - a common tactic.

 

You have to repeat your offer, simply because there is little else they can do. If you could do what it said in the T&Cs, you wouldn't have had to ask them!

 

Theirs is a disingenuous response - a reduced payment offer is just that. If they think that the minimum payment of 2.5% is already some kind of reduced payment, then their letter is unreasonable - their reason for refusing does not make sense. A simple 'no' would have done.

 

They are being wholly unreasonable, while you are being proactive in trying to be fair to your creditors and you are not denying responsibilty for your debts. A judge would like you!

“The industry is rotten to the core, whether it is in-house recovery and collection, or where agents are used, or where the debt has been sold.” Andrew Mackinley MP, House of Commons, 22 April 2009

 

If a Cagger helps you, click their star. Better still, make a donation however small, so that CAG can continue to help others.

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Hi Bradford Lad,

 

If you are paying everything you can and have organised payments to creditors on a pro-rata basis, there is nothing whatsoever they can do. Of course, they could take you to court, but they almost certainly won't get paid any more that they are now and it's even possible that they could get less. You do have to make sure though that you have calculated your income and expenditure in a way that is not designed to over-egg the pudding insofar as your expenses is concerned.

 

This is quite clearly a blatant and despicable attempt to frighten you into contacting them - the intention being to leave you worried about it over the Christmas period. Don't. Enjoy your Christmas - they can wait.

 

Regards.

 

Fred

Before you criticise another man you should first walk a mile in his shoes. Then, when you criticise him, you'll be a mile away and he won't have any shoes on.

 

Don't get me confused with somebody knowledgeable by all those green blobs. I got most of them by making people laugh.

 

I am not European, I am English.

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The DN is unlawful because they have miscalculated the time required in law to remedy the breach.This is how it works. The law states that a DN is deemed to have been received on the 4th working day after postage - weekends don't count. The assumption is that it was posted 2nd class unless you have the envelope that proves it was posted 1st class. So in law you are deemed to have received it on the Tuesday 3 November. They then need to give you 14 clear days after that - straight, not working days - to remedy the breach. So that takes you to the 17 November. Unless you received it 1st Class their calculations are out by 1 day and that is enough to render the DN unlawful.

 

You need to be careful with that information. Have you had a letter confirming they have terminated the account?

 

Failure of a default notice to be accurate not only invalidates the default notice (Woodchester Lease Management Services Ltd v Swain and Co - [2001] GCCR 2255) but is a unlawful rescission of contract which would not only prevent the court enforcing any alleged debt, but gives rise to a counter claim for damages Kpohraror v Woolwich Building Society [1996] 4 All ER 119

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Hi Pinky, no I haven't received a termination letter yet, but sounds like I should keep my fingers crossed? ;) Should I ask the solicitors for a letter confirming the account has been terminated?

 

I didn't keep the envelope, so don't know if it was first or second. Surely they would argue that it was sent first class?

 

Can anyone else confirm what Pinky says (don't mean to doubt you Pinky, its just that I need to be absolutely certain, as I'm sure you can understand :))

 

Cheers all

Well 6 years on and most of the defaults have disappeared, thank you CAG for a

ll your help

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They can argue that they posted it first class but they would have to prove that they did with proof of postage,which they won't have. It is not the date it was sent that matters, it's the date you receive it.

 

You can do the calcultions yourself:

 

2. Practice Direction

Service of Documents - First and Second Class Mail.

 

With effect from 16 April 1985 the Practice Direction issued on 30 July 1968 is hereby revoked and the following is substituted therefore.

1). Under S7 of the Interpretation Act 1978 service by post is deemed to have been effected, unless the contrary has been proved, at the time when the letter would be delivered in the ordinary course of post.

2). To avoid uncertainty as to the date of service it will be taken (subject to proof to the contrary) that delivery in the ordinary course of post was effected:-

(a) in the case of first class mail, on the second working day after posting;

(b) in the case of second class mail, on the fourth working day after posting.

"Working days" are Monday to Friday, excluding any bank holiday.

3). Affidavits of service shall state whether the document was dispatched by first or second class mail. If this information is omitted it will be assumed that second class mail was used.

4). This direction is subject to the special provisions of RSC Order 10, rule 1(3) relating to the service of originating process.

 

8th March 1985

J R BICKFORD SMITH Senior Master

Queen's Bench Division

 

From the CCA 1974 as amended by the CCA 2006:

 

87 (2) A date specified under subsection (1) must not be less than seven(amended to 14) days after the

date of service of the default notice, and the creditor or owner shall not take action

such as is mentioned in section 87(1) before the date so specified or (if no requirement

is made under subsection ( 1)) before those seven (14) days have elapsed.

 

There is no harm in asking the solicitors if the agreement has been terminated as you have not received a Termination Notice.

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Dear Idiots

 

I acknowledge receipt of your letter and thank you for giving me the oportunity to re-calculate my Income and Expenditure in accordance with published guidelines acceptable by a Court of Law.

 

I therefore have to inform you that my offer is now re-calculated to ++++ per month. Make sure this is LESS than your original offer!!!!

Every journey begins with a single step :):)

 

Please note: I have no qualifications in this area - my advice is learned from the wonderful members of this Forum. Thanks to you all for your help.

 

If you have found my post helpful please leave a short message by clicking the star to the left of my profile - Thank You

 

The only person entitled to your Personal Finance details is a Judge not a DCA

 

Move all banking activity to another banking group if you have a dispute - your funds can be used to offset debts within the same group.

Be careful with Banking details (card/account numbers) as these can be used to take unauthorised payments.

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Then the agreement is rescinded and they can only claim any arrears, if they know to do that and many don't. They also cease any right to process your personal data so they cannot pass it on. They also, as stated in Khoparor above, cannot enforce the agreement in court. They also cannot enter defaults after rescission. You can choose to pay them any amount you want - £1 a week if that is all you can afford. Basically they are stuffed from taking any action against you. You must get confirmation of that termination before you do anything, tell them in writing you accept the termination then tell them, smiling sweetly, they have rescinded account and what your response is. CAG -we take back control using the law.:D Happy Christmas.

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Oh, you guys - if there was some online mistletoe around here I'd be puckering up for you all!!!

 

You've made me so happy, I feel like I can actually enjoy Christmas now!

 

Thank you so much, and happy Christmas to you all!

 

BL :D:D

Well 6 years on and most of the defaults have disappeared, thank you CAG for a

ll your help

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  • 1 month later...

Hi everyone, I need help!

 

We've today received County Court papers from Northampton CC relating to the Bank of Ireland credit card - form reference is N1CPC.

 

Its dated 21st January, received today (26th January).

 

To recap - we wrote in September asking them to agree a repayment plan due to massively reduced income. We received a defective DN, and it was suggested that we contact the Solicitors asking for confirmation that the account had been terminated.

 

The solicitors have not yet replied to any of our letters.

 

I have sent them a fax this afternoon, asking for a reply as to whether the account has been terminated, and mentioned that should the case go to court, I will draw it to the attention of the court that despite numerous attempts to make an agreement, they have never replied to my requests.

 

HOWEVER - I need some help, and quickly!!

 

I understand I should ask the claim to be moved to my local court - how do I do this? Do I disagree & counterclaim? Will we need to go to court?

 

How does the fact that the DN was defective affect the proceedings - do I need to do anything?

 

Any help GRATEFULLY appreciated - thanks

 

Bradfordlad

 

Further information that may help: Pinky69 suggested that the DN is defective as they did not give me sufficient time to remedy the breach (based on the assumed 2nd class / 4 days postage rule).

 

I sent a fax to Geoffrey Parker Bourne asking them if the account had been terminated, along with a copy of my original letter to Bank of Ireland explaining the change in our circumstances, and a detailed SOA along with a list of creditors/balances & pro-rata monthly payment offers.

 

They didn't respond to this letter.

 

I received another letter on 11th Janaury, but we were on holiday until 23rd so I've not replied to it yet. This letter thanked us for our most recent payment (as per the pro-rata offer, which is made directly to Bank of Ireland) and saying they need to speak to us about the balance - they appreciate we may not be able to pay it in full, but by calling now they may be able to arrange a suitable repayment schedule...

 

26th January, Northampton CC claim form arrives - details are:

 

PARTICULARS OF CLAIM: They are claiming the full outstanding balance,in respect of monies due at this date under an agreement in writing regulated by the Consumer Credit Acts 1974 and 2006, and the claimants claim, the said sum of £xxxx.

 

(The amount of the claim is in excess of £5,000)

 

I am able to respond online, and have been provided with a password.

 

I am not sure:

1 - whether I should admit, admit part, or defend the claim.

2 - should I apply to change courts - and how?

3 - how the defective DN affects things (if it WAS defective, and if it DOES affect things)

4 - no supporting documents were received with the claim form - should there've been some?

 

I have 14 days to respond which starts from today (26th January).

 

Please help!

 

I should also say that I decided not to send the fax mentioned in post 31 - I didn't want to jeopordise anything...

 

Just going through my paperwork, and I came across this letter - dated 2 days after the expiry of the default notice.

 

It doesn't specifically say so, but could this be a Termination Letter?

 

http://i777.photobucket.com/albums/yy57/citygent1911/BankofIrelandTerminationmaybe.jpg

 

Sorry to be a pain, but I really need some advice about this claim.

 

Can anyone help?

 

Thanks

 

BL

Well 6 years on and most of the defaults have disappeared, thank you CAG for a

ll your help

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Hi everyone,

 

sorry for starting a new threead just for this, but I'm panicking!

 

I'd be grateful for help with a claim form I received today, relating to my thread Bradfordlad Vs Bank of Ireland over at http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/debt-collection-industry/239519-urgent-help-needed-bank.html

 

I've done some research on the site, but most defences seem to be based on unenforceable Agreements, rather than a possibly defective DN.

 

Look forward to any help soon!

 

BL

Well 6 years on and most of the defaults have disappeared, thank you CAG for a

ll your help

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Having read the letter linked in post #34, I would not say that it is a termination letter.

 

My understanding of an S87 notice ( remember that it is a Statutory Notice) and the language used in it, indicates that the creditor will terminate the account.

 

As they have issued Court proceedings, then you can presume that the creditor has terminated the account.

 

As to your points -

 

1 - whether I should admit, admit part, or defend the claim.

 

If you admit or part admit the claim then you will get a CCJ.

If you defend the claim then you are able to to use the defective DN

 

2 - should I apply to change courts - and how?

 

If you defend, Northampton BCC will automatically transfer the case to your nearest fcounty Court

 

3 - how the defective DN affects things (if it WAS defective, and if it DOES affect things)

 

I would advise you read the linkbelow to understand the relevance of a defective DN -

 

B_R_W's post on DN's

 

4 - no supporting documents were received with the claim form - should there've been some?

 

No docs should have been supplied if the claim came from Northampton. This is why you use the CPR rules.

have a read of this thread for their use -

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/legal-issues/241827-legal-action-how-start.html

 

 

Have a look at this thread which may be of use to you -

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/legal-issues/239383-hsbc-cca-going-court.html

 

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Thanks for the responses :)

 

I set up seperate threads after that confusion previously, but good idea anyway!

 

I'll have a read through the suggested threads tonight - and thanks again. There's so much helpful advive on CAG, but sometimes it can be confusing as to whih bits are relevant to your own circumstances!

 

cheers,

 

BL

Well 6 years on and most of the defaults have disappeared, thank you CAG for a

ll your help

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This section from "B R W's post on DN's" is the bit that bothers me about my DN, in paticular point 3 at the bottom:

 

2. Practice Direction

 

Service of Documents - First and Second Class Mail

 

"With effect from 16 April 1985 the Practice Direction issued on 30 July 1968 is hereby revoked and the following is substituted therefore.

 

1. Under S7 of the Interpretation Act 1978 service by post is deemed to have been effected, unless the contrary has been proved, at the time when the letter would be delivered in the ordinary course of post.

 

2. To avoid uncertainty as to the date of service it will be taken (subject to proof to the contrary) that delivery in the ordinary course of post was effected:-

 

(a) in the case of first class mail, on the second working day after posting;

 

(b) in the case of second class mail, on the fourth working day after posting.

 

"Working days" are Monday to Friday, excluding any bank holiday.

 

3. Affidavits of service shall state whether the document was dispatched by first or second class mail. If this information is omitted it will be assumed that second class mail was used.

 

 

Now I don't recall if 1st or 2nd class was used, but I don't want to put that in my defence statement as I understand that the Claimant gets to see this and they could easily just add a statement to their affidavit that 1st class used.

 

Or am I worrying over nothing??:confused:

Well 6 years on and most of the defaults have disappeared, thank you CAG for a

ll your help

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They would have to produce proof of postage if they were going to claim it was sent 1st class. Ordinarily businesses don't and in the absence of proof to the contrary it is accepted it was sent 2nd class.

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Hi again Pinky - my resident postage expert!!

 

So they're not likely to say "everything we send is done 1st class" - I guess my answer would have to be "prove it..."?

 

Cool, so......

 

As far as my dealing with this claim form goes, I go online and DEFEND the claim, then do I do a CPR request to get whatever documents they are relying on?

 

What do I do then? When do I throw in the bit about the DN being defective?

 

cheers,,,,

 

BL

Well 6 years on and most of the defaults have disappeared, thank you CAG for a

ll your help

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Yes, using the password on the claim form, go online and defend all if that is your intention.

 

Do remember to print off the receipt at the end and keep it safe with your paperwork.

 

Send the CPR either 18 or 31.14 .

 

Keep a note of the date by which you need to submit your defence. 33 days from the date of ISSUE on the claim form.

 

Have a read round the forums for anything similar to your situation and so you can understand things better.

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