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Big Motoring World/BMW PCP Finance/Warranties 2000 - Range rover Evoque timing chain fail at 76k


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Thanks both,  I'm not there just yet, however the report is a positive sign though.

 

I just wanted to ask some advice.  In regards to the Finance company responding back to my email.  What would you say is a reasonable amount of time, before lodging the complaint with the FOS?

 

Since sending Creations the doc links, I've heard  absolutely nothing, especially considering their last email communication before they received the findings stated I should jog onto the FOS if I am unhappy with their claim rejection.

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No need for further delay One rejection was enough, just get on with it 

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Any help I am able to give is from my own experience only. Should you have any doubt you should contact a qualified professional.

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On 04/06/2022 at 13:04, theoldrouge said:

shame no pre contract info included


As to the header,

because PCP was not around when CCA1974 was written, the term Hire Purchase Agreement is used as standard


this does of course lead to substantial confusion


The difference being with HP you are increasing your equity in the vehicle with each months payments


With PCP you are merely paying the estimated depreciation of the vehicle, in your case in excess of £10k depreciation (I hate PCP with a vengeance )


Now as to your FOS Complaint, a two pronged attack if it were me

 

First obtain an independent engineers report, and complain as regards the useless warranty that you were sold for your peace of mind🤣,but in effect was sold it for the dealers commission


Second insist you thought you were signing an HP agreement, the facts regarding PCP were never explained to you (the depreciation payments)


You thought that your payments were going towards purchasing the vehicle on a monthly basis nothing was explained to you


As a result you have been totally mislead and misold PCP, and require the agreement to be rendered void, and you want all your monies returned

 

please don't hit Quote...just type we know what we said earlier..

DCA's view debtors as suckers, marks and mugs

NO DCA has ANY legal powers whatsoever on ANY debt no matter what it's Type

and they

are NOT and can NEVER  be BAILIFFS. even if a debt has been to court..

If everyone stopped blindly paying DCA's Tomorrow, their industry would collapse overnight... 

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dont waffle!

one page only 

short 20-30 word paragraphs well spaced.

 

get a cheap penstick

copy to it EVERYTHING in/out to date to it.

 

name the files 

 

yyyy-mm-dd xxx to xxx + (5 word explanation of what the comms is.)

 

tape that to the letter.

 

dx

please don't hit Quote...just type we know what we said earlier..

DCA's view debtors as suckers, marks and mugs

NO DCA has ANY legal powers whatsoever on ANY debt no matter what it's Type

and they

are NOT and can NEVER  be BAILIFFS. even if a debt has been to court..

If everyone stopped blindly paying DCA's Tomorrow, their industry would collapse overnight... 

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Hey DX 100UK

 

Thanks for this.

 

I've already started with the waffle lol,  I'm never too sure what to write.  I'm due the usb flash stick today so will copy all docs onto it.

 

FYI I also had to purchase a little run around back in May, as it was too much relying on neighbours and friends to drop me to work/run my kids around. Should I also mention the purchase of the secondhand car?

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At a later stage when you are asked for more information 

Then you can flesh it out and claim the moral high ground (how you have continued to comply with your legal obligations in this matter despite being deprived of your vehicle etc

Bullet points only at this stage

plus as dx above

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Any help I am able to give is from my own experience only. Should you have any doubt you should contact a qualified professional.

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  • 1 month later...

Good Mornng,

 

So after a few months of waiting my case with FOS has now been allocated to a case worker.  

I have attached a copy of the email as I need some interpretation.

 

I sent everything over, as previously advised.  The only issue I see is his interpretation of the HP finance where the payment goes to paying off the vehicle which ends up being mine in the end, and PCP.   I think I need help with a better explanation.

 

I see that he is also confused in regard to the 2 reports on the vehicle, one was conducted by the finance company via Warranties 2000 and the other was conducted by an independent engineer which I was again advised to seek from the finance company if I want satisfied with the findings.

 

The tone of the case worker does not seem promising, although I see I've done nothing wrong here in regard to the vehicle.

 

Would love your thoughts and advice on responding back ss clearly as possible.

Much thanks

FOS (1).pdf

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For some reason I can only see the FOS letter not the two reports

As regards the difference between hp and pcp use the explanation that I have already given you ( paying depreciation v increasing your equity in the vehicle) just fluff it out abit

I don’t see the FOS letter as particularly negative, it’s the reports I need to see

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And just to add that the very basic difference is at the end of the hp agreement you own the vehicle,at the end of the pcp you pay the substantial balloon payment if you wish to own the vehicle 

You did not receive pci at the time of purchase and none of this was ever explained to you 

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Any help I am able to give is from my own experience only. Should you have any doubt you should contact a qualified professional.

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Morning All,

 

This is moving much faster than I thought, it's taken months sitting in the pile.  Caseworker came back requesting additional info.

 

 I have additional questions regarding your complaint. 
 
  • Please will you provide me with a copy or photos of the car's full service history so I can verify it's been serviced in line with, or above, the manufacturer's recommendations;
     
  • Creation have said it's most likely you would've heard changes to the engine running noise in the period leading up to the break down. Please will you let me have your comments, or any available evidence, regarding this.
     
  • Can you please provide evidence of costs incurred as result of the break down, excluding the cost of the Elite report, so I can see how you've been financially impacted by the breakdown; 
     
  • Please provide me with any other comments or evidence you'd like me to take into account regarding the impacts of the breakdown. 

 

Honestly speaking from the minute the engine went on at the showroom, the first comment that came out of my mouth was that the engine was loud.  Now I've always driven a petrol car, up until the day of purchase, I was driving a petrol vehicle. 

 

the engine has always been loud for me from the offset, I also have a slight hearing impediment (partially deaf from ears of Ear infections that resulted in an ear canal widening over 25 years ago at ENT Kings Cross). 

Please note that I am not claiming ignorance here, I honestly didn't notice.

 

In regards to evidence for cost, is this where I bring in the second vehicle that I had to purchase alongside the insurance, and road tax costs?

 

not really sure but I feel that this is my last opportunity to add anything relevant.

 
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Any additional expenses as a consequence of the vehicle failing 

 

Noise...simply explain that to date you have never owned a diesel vehicle so cannot objectively comment, however, I remember thinking how much louder the vehicle was from petrol ones from my very first viewing at the showroom prior to purchase 

 

Since ownership the vehicle did not appear to change its running tone, no.

 

Can we see the 2 reports before you reply.

 

Dx

please don't hit Quote...just type we know what we said earlier..

DCA's view debtors as suckers, marks and mugs

NO DCA has ANY legal powers whatsoever on ANY debt no matter what it's Type

and they

are NOT and can NEVER  be BAILIFFS. even if a debt has been to court..

If everyone stopped blindly paying DCA's Tomorrow, their industry would collapse overnight... 

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dx makes a good point about the different noise from a Diesel engine 
You had the vehicle professional serviced about 4000 miles prior to the breakdown and no concerns were raised at the time of the service so negating their argument 
A chain breaking is a sudden event with no noticeable loss of engine performance prior to the event 

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Any help I am able to give is from my own experience only. Should you have any doubt you should contact a qualified professional.

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  • 2 months later...

Hi there,

 

Just wanted to update you all.

 

Received a reply from FOS pre Christmas to conclude . 

 

What I do notice is that there is no mention of the contract agreement.   

 

The finance company had till this week to respond with any other evidence.  They do not agree with FOS officers findings and so they have been given a further week. 

 

The doc was a few pages long but  have summarised in the attached doc. 

 

Your thoughts would be great.

 

Many thanks

Summary FOS (1).pdf

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not being funny

but please post up the complete return not just the summary.

 

dx

 

please don't hit Quote...just type we know what we said earlier..

DCA's view debtors as suckers, marks and mugs

NO DCA has ANY legal powers whatsoever on ANY debt no matter what it's Type

and they

are NOT and can NEVER  be BAILIFFS. even if a debt has been to court..

If everyone stopped blindly paying DCA's Tomorrow, their industry would collapse overnight... 

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Seems like a pretty satisfactory outcome so far
Cant see they will get very far by not agreeing, their report was a pretty substandard effort imo

PLEASE HELP US TO KEEP THIS SITE RUNNING

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Any help I am able to give is from my own experience only. Should you have any doubt you should contact a qualified professional.

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  • 5 months later...

@BankFodder thanks

 

Hi Guys,

It's been a while!

After having to chase the FOS for a decision, i finally received the response yesterday.

The outcome is positive however, i feel as though the ombudsman has been very vague in his resolution with regard to the car being fixed.

"arrange for the failed timing chain to be repaired, at no cost to Ms O"

The point above is where I feel the information is very vague, and could be taken from a literal point of view from the finance company.  Due to the timing chain failing whilst the vehicle was in motion, it cause considerable dame to the engine, meaning a new engine is required.  Furthermore, whilst the car has been sat for a matter of 18months or so, there would be deterioration parts connected to the engine...such as the water pump and cooling system/turbo ect as well as other associated parts of the vehicle mechanics/electricals, which would require fixing.  Who would bare that cost?

Pre and post inspection

Mot...literally I cannot think of any more.

The Ombudsman has not considered that I now own a car, which I had to buy due to the situation I was left in. So!    should the vehicle be returned, I will then be the owner of 2 vehicles,  2 insurances....although insurance only for 4 months cover on the Land Rover,  2 lots of Road tax and 2 lots of resident parking permit....its all too much headache.

With only 4 months remaining on the contract, I could receive the vehicle within a matter of week or months.  This leaves me with issues and questions with regard to the terms of the contract/final balloon payment, especially where I  only manged to use the car, 24 months out of a 48 month period.  

How does "reasonable condition" sit in all of this.

I also noticed the contract mentioned - the final balloon payment if they haven't been informed otherwise.  To me, the balloon payment should be null/invalid as the finance company failed to sell me a car  that was  to a satisfactory condition. Please note that I have interest in this vehicle, I have moved on from Land Rover and I really love the car that I am currently driving. 

Please do let me know If I am making logical sense because there are so many things running through my mind right now.  I am also awaiting professional opinion in regards to the vehicle, from the independent engineer.

Should I accept offer from FOS then submit a VT?  

 

Would really love some advice.

 

Many thanks

 

Complainant.Decision (1).docx.pdf

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I think you should write to the ombudsman immediately and ask for clarification.

You want clarification that by repairing the timing chain, the ombudsman intended to mean repairing the timing chain and all of the damage which was caused directly by the failure of the timing chain.

Point out that you are unable to reach a decision unless this is clear both for your sake, the sake of Creation and to bring the matter to a proper end.

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Agee with @BankFodderyou need clarification from the Ombudsman 
But otherwise the result is pretty positive 

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Any help I am able to give is from my own experience only. Should you have any doubt you should contact a qualified professional.

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@BankFodder noted with thanks.

 

Should I also specify all damage which was caused due to the timing chain failure ie: The engine Plus parts associated to the engine (electrical/mechanical) /deterioration

Who would be liable for the MOT immediately after the works are complete just to ensure that Its road worthy?

Where do I sit in regard to ending the contract/informing them that I would not be purchasing the car at the end of the contract? I am very conscience of the time remaining, so I just want to start getting my head around things, although I am also aware that they may not proceed with the repair (due to cost) and may terminate.

@theoldrouge  I guess so however,  I know I'm focusing on the contractual side of things.

 

Thank you

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I think you should worry about all the other detail later but in terms of purchasing the car, I think that you should examine the value of the car  and what you might get for it if you sold it yourself privately.

You need to look at all possibilities.

For the moment I think the only thing to do is to get clarification that the ombudsman means that all of the damage caused by the failure of the timing chain should be repaired

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Here's the response I received .........

 

I will take it that 'Creations' have to use their initiative to fix everything, putting me back in the same position as I was before the timing chain failure. Of course, it would be irresponsible for them not to address the state of the vehicle/worn condition internally and externally.

See below:

I'm replying on behalf of the ombudsman to your query about the decision that Andrew set to you.
 
The ombudsman has directed Creation to fix the car - how they repair the car would be up to them to decide, but it would need to be fixed and a warranty put in place to cover the repairs undertaken.
 
Please confirm if you'd like to accept the decision before 13 July 2023 and I'll arrange for the appropriate steps to be taken to bring a resolution to your complaint.
 
Kind regards

 

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Hey guys,

 

Further to the above, I went back to The ombudsman with the following:

Thanks for coming back to me.
 
I note that you have failed to clarify or answer my very simple questions and important concerns about the vehicle overall, yet state simply that they will repair the car.  If they will be repairing the car correctly to put it into the condition it was before the failure, I will accept the decision presented to me.
 
Today I received this reply:
 
Because an ombudsman has sent their final decision on your complaint, I'm sorry that I can't add anything further to what he has already said.
 
The ombudsman has directed Creation to repair the car, and if you accept the decision, this is what they would be expected to do because the decision would become binding on both parties.
 
Please confirm by 13 July 2023 if you accept or reject the decision.
 
The ombudsman has created a tricky situation in my opinion.  Looks like I will have to bear further costs to have the vehicle inspected before and after it is fixed.  Would love your thoughts, please.
 
Thanks
 
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