Horizon PCN for overstaying in Town Centre Car Park - Tesco Stourbridge

[darrenham]

Hi,

 

Got another pesky invoice I'd like to ask your guidance with please.

 

I shopped (£1.50 but they don't need to know that) in the Tesco after attending a theatre show in the Town Hall (part of the Tesco building) with my 4 year old daughter.  The show was 1hr40 run-time and started late.

 

If you'd like any other info, please let me know.

 

 

1 Date of the infringement 25/02/2022

 

2 Date on the NTK [this must have been received within 14 days from the 'offence' date] 03/03/2022

 

3 Date received 09/03/2022 
 

4 Does the NTK mention schedule 4 of The Protections of Freedoms Act 2012? No I don't believe it does
 

5 Is there any photographic evidence of the event? Yes, entrance and exit of the carpark. Only options available too.
 

6 Have you appealed? No - done nothing yet.
 

Have you had a response? n/a
 

7 Who is the parking company? Horizon Parking

 

8. Where exactly Tesco Stourbridge
 

For either option, does it say which appeals body they operate under. IAS - POPLA

 

[honeybee13]

Hi.

 

You've left your name on the letter from Horizon. Best to cover that up. I'll add a couple of details to your thread title.

 

HB

[Homer67]

Do nothing unless you get a Letter Before Action but keep all the tripe they send you in the meantime.

 

Was this an ex Council car park taken over by shops?  If so I bet the time limit was originally higher and the PPC cannot set their own limit.

 

Worthwhile doing a bit of research into it and taking some photos of their signs as well.

[darrenham]

Correct, they knocked down a multi-storey to build it, it was 3hrs last I checked, must have dropped to 2hrs at some point.

[Homer67]

You need to find out who changed it and when it changed.

[darrenham]

According to this it was back in 2015:

 

https://www.stourbridgenews.co.uk/news/13343920.stourbridge-shoppers-miffed-as-tesco-cuts-free-parking-from-three-hours-to-two/

 

horizon pcn fully redacted.pdfFully redacted PCN here.  Always takes me 800 attempts to get right.

[Homer67]

Unless Tesco own the car park and the land it's on they can't do that.

[dx100uk]

horizon have done this at many tesco store car parks across the UK inc scotland.

 

they can't, the relevant council must approve the change to the initial planning permission for free parking and change of free hours from what was granted to the land owner at the time of application, nowhere to date has anyone found such granting. 

[darrenham]

From: http://cmis.dudley.gov.uk/CMIS5/Document.ashx?czJKcaeAi5tUFL1DTL2UE4zNRBcoShgo=7zih7CQU7VGloVKuoG0k7dA4JINFBxCscbD8kLa19%2FDCzUhRDrvf8w%3D%3D&mCTIbCubSFfXsDGW9IXnlg%3D%3D=hFflUdN3100%3D&kCx1AnS9%2FpWZQ40DXFvdEw%3D%3D=hFflUdN3100%3D&uJovDxwdjMPoYv%2BAJvYtyA%3D%3D=ctNJFf55vVA%3D&FgPlIEJYlotS%2BYGoBi5olA%3D%3D=NHdURQburHA%3D&d9Qjj0ag1Pd993jsyOJqFvmyB7X0CSQK=ctNJFf55vVA%3D&WGewmoAfeNR9xqBux0r1Q8Za60lavYmz=ctNJFf55vVA%3D&WGewmoAfeNQ16B2MHuCpMRKZMwaG1PaO=ctNJFf55vVA%3D

 

 

Quote

95 The management of the car park (i.e. pricing and length of stay) has been raised as part of the consultation process. However, the management of the parking is not a matter which can normally be controlled through the planning process, and is normally matter for the car park operator. The only concern of the planning authority, and the Group Engineer (Development) is that is sufficient parking space within the proposed development, and that is available for the users of the development. In the case of the former the Group Engineer (Development) is satisfied. The second of these is effectively self enforcing, due to the need to attract visitors to the store.

 

The development here, includes the Town Hall where the show was.

[darrenham]

So advice is to ignore this?  

Edited March 9, 2022 by darrenham

[dx100uk]

4 hours ago, Homer67 said:

Do nothing unless you get a Letter Before Action but keep all the tripe they send you in the meantime.

 

 

[lookinforinfo]

That planning is concerned with building and construction.  It does  say that no planning permission had been applied for under Town and Country [advertisements] regulations which is where Horizon's signs would be covered.

This is not surprising as there would be no need to apply for that kind of signage at the construction stage.

There would probably not even any thought given to having parking supervision until after the car park had been up and running for some time.

Edited March 9, 2022 by lookinforinfo

[darrenham]

Happy to ignore, was just seeking clarification due to the above.

[honeybee13]

We're always happy to clarify.   It's better to ask if you're not sure than to miss something that needs action.

 

HB

[darrenham]

Have received a reminder.

Don't expect this changes anything, but wanted to share

2022_04_07 14_34 Office Lens.pdf

[dx100uk]

as you do

 

ignore

 

dx

 

[lookinforinfo]

The PCN is not PoFA compliant. 

 

There is no period of parking which is a PoFA requirement . Yes there is an entry and an exit time but that is not the same as a parking period.

 

Also there is no mention that Horizon is the creditor-which is another PoFA requirement. And there is no mention of transferring the liability of the alleged breach from the driver to the keeper.

 

So only the driver should be pursued not the keeper so it is important that you do not reveal the name of the driver.

[darrenham]

I've now received a letter from Debt Recovery Plus

2022_06_07 Stourbridge.pdf

[FTMDave]

DRP have no power as it's not their debt.

 

Laugh at them and ignore.

 

Use their letter as bedding for a hamster (should you have a hamster), to play paper aeroplanes, etc.

 

 

[darrenham]

In another thread, and in person about Tesco Stourbridge and the Town Hall, I've heard of others who have had similar charges waived due to being legitimate customers.  I've drafted the below to be sent to tesco's manager, but will only do so with your blessing as you all know this far more than me.  Have been intentionally vague with details, and everything mentioned is provable correct.

 

Would this hurt?

 

To the Manager,

RE: Parking Charge Notice, Vehicle Reg XXXXXX

 

I'm in receipt of a parking charge notice from a company called Horizon Parking for the date of 25^th February for my car XXXXXX for overstaying in your car park.

 

On this date we did some shopping in your store, and attended a show at the Town Hall.  The show started late, and it took some time for us to leave the car park due to long queues to the exit, which I assume is the reason they believe we parked for longer than we did.

 

The show was not cheap, and neither was my shopping, so the driver and I would rather not make it even more expensive by having to pay a charge for parking when the overstay was not our fault.  As both of us are loyal Tesco customers, shopping in your store regularly, I’d hope that you could contact Horizon Parking and ask them to drop this?

[brassnecked]

Have you proof Tesco have killed the Invoices for sure, might not be good to make it obvious you spent more time at show than shopping.

[darrenham]

Decent point, but yeah my wife spoke to them.

 

The show was in the Crown Centre which also houses Tesco.  The Tesco carpark is actually for the whole Crown Centre, including the Town Hall.  It's not strictly a "customer car park" but Tesco run it.

[brassnecked]

So Tesco's parking cowboys can impact other businesses. hmm might be some wriggle room if Town hall has shows and the Tesco time limit impinges on those along with other businesses.

[lookinforinfo]

Darrenham, I posted on your other thread that the Horizon PCN was non compliant.

The same things are true about this PCN also which you can use when writing to get your PCN cancelled.

[FTMDave]

Nothing to be lost by contacting Tesco.  Your draft letter is fine.