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GroupNexus ANPR PCN - Overstay - Fforestfach Retail Parc Pontardulias Road Swansea SA5 4BAGrid locked in car park Turned down by POPLA


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Posted (edited)

Went to local shops with three hour limit on December 22 nd 2021.

 

Tried to leave but it was grid locked. Stuck for 45 mins . Locked car and set out on foot with bags of shopping. 

live 1/2 mile away. Very bad weather that night only had a short jacket. I am a grandmother with disabled husband. Got home soaked.

 

POPLA would not accept car park grid locked .Car park dark and badly lit did not have phone to take photos.

 

Visited shops to speak to managers who all acknowledge car park grid locked that day but nothing to do with them.  

Spoke  to car park security  person on duty that day totally agreed with me .

 

Nexus group keep saying I breached contract but I couldn’t leave the car park.

A barrier was down between another car park and the security man said that it was problematic.

I asked for footage but nothing . 


Has anyone wales experienced this.

Edited by dx100uk
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Somebody with good parking experience will be along shortly to advise I'm quite sure.

However, I'm quite sure that the company which manages the car park and is responsible for the regulation of parking, also has a duty to keep the car park clear and to permit you to leave the car park without any hindrance.


I'm sure managers et cetera all say that it has nothing to do with them, but if you can get some written statement – however informal – that the car park was gridlocked on that day, then I think that you will find it very helpful if the matter does eventually go to court. Try to get this evidence if you can but in any event wait for further advice

 

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please complete this:

 

Next time do NOT appeal.

 

dx

 

n

  • Like 1

please don't hit Quote...just type we know what we said earlier..

DCA's view debtors as suckers, marks and mugs

NO DCA has ANY legal powers whatsoever on ANY debt no matter what it's Type

and they

are NOT and can NEVER  be BAILIFFS. even if a debt has been to court..

If everyone stopped blindly paying DCA's Tomorrow, their industry would collapse overnight... 

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1 Date of the infringement 22/12/2021
 

 

2 Date on the NTK [this must have been received within 14 days from the 'offence' date] 30/12/2021
 

 

3 Date received 04/01/2022
 

4 Does the NTK mention schedule 4 of The Protections of Freedoms Act 2012? [Y/N?] No
 

5 Is there any photographic evidence of the event? Yes
 

6 Have you appealed? Yes
 

Have you had a response? [Y/N?] post it up Yes 

Decision Unsuccessful
Assessor Name Bethany Young
 
Assessor summary of operator case

The operator has issued the parking charge notice (PCN) as the vehicle stayed longer than the allowed maximum stay period.

 

Assessor summary of your case
  • The appellant’s case is that when they tried to leave the car park, it was gridlocked due to Christmas shopping.
  • They say the barrier between Tesco and the adjoining car park was closed, which reduced the flow of traffic.
  • They say they sat in the traffic for 45 minutes around 17:00 to 17:30 and had no choice but to park again and walk home.
  • They returned later to pick up their vehicle.
  • They say there was no car park staff to assist or direct traffic in or out.
  • The appellant says the cameras at the site, or the shops will verify the situation.
  • They say they did not have a camera to hand to gather evidence.
  • The appellant reiterates their grounds in their comments and states it was an unpleasant experience.
  • They say emergency services would not have been able to access the site if there had been an accident.

 

Assessor supporting rational for decision

The appellant has indicated that they were the driver of the vehicle on the day of the parking event.

As such, I am considering the appellant’s liability for the PCN, as the driver.

 

When entering onto a private car park such as this one, any motorist forms a contract with the operator by remaining on the land for a reasonable period. The signage in place sets out the terms and conditions of this contract.

 

The operator has provided photographic evidence of the signage in place in the car park, which states:

“3 HOURS MAXIMUM STAY… If you park you agree to pay a Parking Charge of £100 which may be issued if the following… Maximum stay of 3 hours”.

 

The PCN was issued as the vehicle stayed longer than the allowed maximum stay period. The operator has provided photographic evidence of the motorist’s vehicle, entering the car park at 15:13, and exiting at 19:14, totalling a stay of 4 hours and 1 minute.

 

The burden of proof lies with the operator to demonstrate that it has issued the PCN correctly. The operator has provided photographic evidence of multiple signs installed around the site. I consider it looks like there is a contract between the appellant and the operator, and the evidence suggests the terms have been breached.

 

I now turn to the appellant’s grounds of appeal to determine if they make a material difference to the validity of the parking charge notice.

 

  • The appellant explains that when they tried to leave the car park, it was gridlocked due to Christmas shopping.
  • They say the barrier between Tesco and the adjoining car park was closed, which reduced the flow of traffic.
  • They say they sat in the traffic for 45 minutes around 17:00 to 17:30 and had no choice but to park again and walk home.
  • They returned later to pick up their vehicle.
  • They say there was no car park staff to assist or direct traffic in or out.

 

It is not within POPLA’s remit to allow an appeal if a contract was formed, and the motorist did not comply to the terms and conditions.

 

The operator has provided a list of the ANPR exit times of other vehicles from 17:00 onwards on the day in question. It shows several vehicles exiting the site per minute. Therefore, without evidence to dispute this, I cannot conclusively accept the traffic was gridlocked and the appellant was unable to exit the site within the required timeframe.

 

The operator is a member of the British Parking Association (BPA), which has a code of practice detailing the standards that it needs to uphold as a part of its membership. Section 13.3 of the BPA Code of Practice states that if the car park only permits a maximum period of parking, this would be considered as a parking event.

 

In this instance, a grace period would need to be added to allow the driver to exit the site before issuing the PCN. The BPA states amount of time given will vary dependant on the size and type of the site, but it must be a minimum of 10 minutes.

 

Section 13.6 of the BPA Code of Practice states that a grace period is not a period of free parking and should be used for its intended purpose of exiting the site only. This means that the motorist is not entitled to complete any other activities during this time. There is no requirement to offer an additional allowance on top of a grace period.

 

As the motorist’s vehicle remained parked on the site for a further 1 hour and 1 minute than was authorised, I am satisfied that they did not use this grace period for its intended purpose of leaving the car park and therefore the PCN has been issued correctly.

 

The appellant says the cameras at the site, or the shops will verify the situation.

They say they did not have a camera to hand to gather evidence.

 

The car park is monitored by automatic number plate recognition cameras. As there is no evidence to suggest the site is monitored by CCTV, an assumption cannot be made that there is CCTV footage of the site being in complete gridlock. Further to this, it cannot be assumed that the parking operator would own or have the right to access the CCTV footage.

 

My role requires assessing all evidence provided by both the appellant and the operator at the time the appeal is submitted and concluding from this evidence whether the parking charge notice has been issued correctly.

 

Any time after the submission, no further evidence can be requested to support the case of either party. This includes evidence such as CCTV, valid permits, disabled blue badges or other photographic evidence.

 

The appellant reiterates their grounds in their comments and states it was an unpleasant experience. They say emergency services would not have been able to access the site if there had been an accident.

 

POPLA’s remit does not have any governance over the operator’s process. If the appellant wishes to pursue any dispute regarding this matter, they will need to contact the operator or the British Parking Association directly. Ultimately, it is the motorist’s responsibility to comply with the terms and conditions of the car park.

 

Upon consideration of the evidence, the motorist stayed longer than the allowed maximum stay period, and therefore did not comply with the terms and conditions. POPLA’s remit is to determine whether the PCN has been issued correctly.

 

On this occasion I conclude that the operator has correctly issued the parking charge. Accordingly, I must refuse this appeal.

 

7 Who is the parking company? Give answer here

 

8. Where exactly [carpark name and town] Park Forestfach Retail Park Swansea
 

For either option, does it say which appeals body they operate under. Wrote to GroupNexus appeals ( turned down)  They then stated to go to POPLA 
 

In summary POPLA do not accept that tithe car park was grid locked . Yet everyone I speak to say it was awful.

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As dx says, learn from this and if something similar ever happens again, don't appeal.  The PPCs never, ever accept appeals and as you've seen POPLA are biased and most of the time side with the PPCs.  The appeals have been a waste of time and have (slightly) weakened your legal position as you've outed yourself as the driver.

 

However, all is not lost!  Their claim is still rubbish and the only way they can force you to pay is if they take you to court and win, which is highly unlikely.

 

Meanwhile I'd take Bakfodder's advice and e-mail all the shops you can and mention "as you know there was gridlock that day".  The shops are likely to reply acknowledging the gridlock but saying there is nothing they can do - excellent evidence for you against the fleecers' lies.

We could do with some help from you.

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1 hour ago, Seala said:

The appellant has indicated that they were the driver of the vehicle on the day of the parking event.

why you never appeal as you out yourself as the driver...bye bye , any protection under POFA 2012

 

can we have all docs bothsides in/out scanned to one mass PDF please.

 

read our upload guide carefully

  • Like 1

please don't hit Quote...just type we know what we said earlier..

DCA's view debtors as suckers, marks and mugs

NO DCA has ANY legal powers whatsoever on ANY debt no matter what it's Type

and they

are NOT and can NEVER  be BAILIFFS. even if a debt has been to court..

If everyone stopped blindly paying DCA's Tomorrow, their industry would collapse overnight... 

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Share on other sites

  • dx100uk changed the title to GroupNexus ANPR PCN - Overstay - Fforestfach Retail Parc Pontardulias Road Swansea SA5 4BAGrid locked in car park Turned down by POPLA

Thank you all so much .

 

I will follow this up. POPLA have made no sense and have ignored the heart of the argument.

 

I would not walk home in the pouring rain with my shopping on a whim.

I was freezing cold and soaking wet. I can get met office report for that night in respect to weather conditions. It would not have been rocket science for POPLA to work that out.

 

Nexus have been very tight lipped knowing or ought to know that the car park at seasonal times can be overwhelmed. I now share your cynicism in a broken corrupt system not fit for purpose.

 

I am happy to be taken to court where perhaps common sense will prevail.

I am now convinced ombudsman system is not fit for purpose.

 

thank you all once again .

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1 hour ago, Seala said:

POPLA have made no sense and have ignored the heart of the argument.

I would not walk home in the pouring rain with my shopping on a whim.

I was freezing cold and soaking wet.

I can get met office report for that night in respect to weather conditions.

It would not have been rocket science for POPLA to work that out.

 

forget all that, going nowhere. never was.

 

1 hour ago, Seala said:

I am happy to be taken to court where perhaps common sense will prevail.

upon the above the court will not care.

 

1 hour ago, Seala said:

I am now convinced ombudsman system is not fit for purpose.

 

had you researched you would have already found popla is NOT independent

just an old boys club of various private parking org that issue speculative invoices.

they are NOT an ombudsman service 

 

  • Like 1

please don't hit Quote...just type we know what we said earlier..

DCA's view debtors as suckers, marks and mugs

NO DCA has ANY legal powers whatsoever on ANY debt no matter what it's Type

and they

are NOT and can NEVER  be BAILIFFS. even if a debt has been to court..

If everyone stopped blindly paying DCA's Tomorrow, their industry would collapse overnight... 

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Thankfully the security guard that was on duty that night totally agreed with everything I said . He said they do not normally get involved but my representations were accurate.

 

Nexus impugned that cars were able to leave . True at a later time but it appears  POPLA we’re totally disinterested in the facts of the matter. 


The security guard is emailing the owners of the site.

 

My regret is I left the house without my phone and could have taken photos. I did not expected everyone to close ranks. 

 

The shops are not doing themselves any favours as I will be reluctant to shop where I could receive   a heavy sanction for being trapped in a car park for no fault of my own. 

 

It is apparent that on seasonal times this is not an isolated occurrence as I have now found out.

 

people are being given short shrift and put through a system that really does not want to remedy the situation. Sheriff of Nottingham comes to mind.

I am now very cynical and agree with all comments .

 

Just received an Email from POPLA ( How did we do ) ????!

Just about reply …. guess what …. emailed could not be opened …. 
I rest my case 

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You are unlikely to be the only one invoiced that day if it was so gridlocked as these fleecer's consider you are parked from the moment yo pass the ANPR camera in, and the one ass you leave, they don't seem to worry that there will be a genuine reason for an overstay. 

But as DX states not all is lost so if you could post up what you have as pdf it would help with advice going forward.

We could do with some help from you.

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Is the barrier controlled by a timer or does an operator shut it down?  Were  there many other cars locked in with your car? We can  do a FOI query to the DVLA  to find out since we cannot expect that POPLA  or Nexus would answer that question.

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Thank you for all your help.

 

still waiting for security guard to get back to me.

 

I was also thinking …..that if this matter goes to court they will have to show flow time of vehicles leaving for the specific time I said it was grid locked.

 

POPLA accepted arguments vehicles were leaving at rate of one per minute  but this was much later and after I walked back to retrieve my vehicle.

 

If they can make representations to POPLA for a later time why couldn’t they do it for the time I claimed gridlock . 

 

The barrier is a manual barrier between two car parks the other car park belonging to Tesco.

 

I was informed by security that Tesco closed it.

 

It appears to be a bone of contention between the two car Parks.

 

In any event when it is closed it drastically reduces flow of traffic by reducing the car park to two arteries to  leave.

 

One artery branching out onto a busy dual carriageway of traffic coming out of the city. On the night in question that contributed to gridlock.

 

The other branch leads through the Tesco car park who had their own influx of seasonal traffic to deal with.

 

In my opinion If emergency services were needed they would not have been able to get through.

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I think I see what you are saying. Please correct me if I am wrong.

 

You got back into your car within the 3 hour period. The traffic was so bad that you waited for 45 minutes at least to get out. During the time that you were waiting, Tesco shut down their barrier presumably  at the same time as  the three hour period in your expired in your car park ?

 

However your car park did not close but cars were only getting out at roughly one per minute. As you had already been waiting for 45 minutes and you could see that you have to wait for another half hour at least you decided to park your car and walk home. By the time you had decided to leave your car there, the three hour time frame had already elapsed.

 

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In which case maybe any contract would be frustrated as inability to leave within the permitted time duue to unforseen circumstances not of the OP's making affected the car park and all its user's globally, many other's were also likely invoiced for overstay.

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That is what has occurred.

That is correct ,it is in fact a frustration of the contract. Unfortunately POPLA just went along with Nexus,s  drivel about cars leaving one per minute but no time specification given ( could be one a minute at a later time) . My appeal has been approached with complete disinterest to the facts.

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That is POPLA for you Seala.

 

They are not neutral they are paid by the BPA members and not for the benefit of motorists. I do not know what you said in your appeal but had you already gone over the three hour time limit while in the car park  then they should have taken that into consideration since that was a flaw in Group Nexus' system that should have been taken into account and you should not have been charged.

 

Sadly one cannot challenge the POPLA decision but by the sound of it there would have been other drivers who would have been caught in the gridlock going over the time limit.

 

I have just noticed that we have not seen the PCN you received from Nexus.

 

Could you please it up front and back.

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POPLA decision might be laughed out of court if they tried  to rely on that in a WS that, as obviously the system was overwhelmed and a Frustration of any Contract could be part of a defence Witness Statement .

We could do with some help from you.

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Posted (edited)

I agree . I could kick my self for not taking my phone up the   shops  because If I had taken a photo I could have easily proved it.

Very disappointing that some shops acknowledged the grid lock and then said they do not want to get involved.  This is amoral .

Edited by Seala
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Thank you for including your PCN. It is a pity that you identified yourself as the driver when you appealed. Their PCN is non compliant so they would not have been able to transfer the liability of the debt from the driver to the keeper.

 

It isn't fatal in this instance probably but if you do get another PCN for a different offence do not be so quick to fire in an appeal. And if you do state that the driver parked the car or the driver left the car park, not I parked the car or I left the car park. That way the parking crooks do not know who was driving and despite what they say, in Court  Judges do not assume that the keeper and the driver are the same person.

 

The next time you go could you please take photos of the signs that Nexus has at the entrance and around the car park and the instructions on the payment machine if it was a pay and display car park. if no instructions on the machine then a photo of the nearest sign please and show how close it is to the machine. Also take photos of signs that are different from others.

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And maybe the contentious barrier

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In any case the fleecers know they are liars and have no case, and they don't know that you don't have the photos!

 

So ignore them now unless you get a Letter of Claim.

 

But get any evidence you can through the shops and/or the security guard.  Personally as already scribbled I would e-mail all the shops you can and mention "as you know there was gridlock that day".  The shops are likely to reply acknowledging the gridlock but saying there is nothing they can do.  But at least you have evidence of the gridlock.

We could do with some help from you.

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