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Overdales sols taking CCJ out on debt which already has lloyds CCJ from 2009 old locked


j70han
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Hi all,

 

So I got the attached letter today from Overdales with two letters showing my debt was transferred from Lowell to Lowell portfolio 1 Ltd in July 2018, referred to as "Notice of Assignment". 

 

 It states that the remaining documents asked for, which were:-

 

-The Defualt Notice

-The Termination Notice 

-The Statement of Account 

-Details of the Contractual payments

 

 will be forwarded to me in due course, but there is no time frame given.

 

From my calculations I have until 04/03/22 to file a defence otherwise it goes to court.  

 

I was just wondering what to think of this reply.   If they fail to produce the documentation requested under 31.14 by my court date,  do they have to stop action, or would it be up to me to still file a defence?   Would the fact these documents have not been provided to me be a suitable defence? 

 

Many thanks for any help and advice  you can give.

 

 

2022-02-11 overdales reply to CPRf.pdf

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Overdales sols taking CCJ out on debt which already has lloyds CCJ from 2009.

 

 

I've been asked to create a new thread for this by BankFodder, due to a glitch with the old thread that isn't allowing any further posts. Link to the old thread is above. 

 

My original post was : - 

 

Hi all,

 

I was wondering if anyone could advise me.

 

I had a loan with Lloyd's bank, which I defaulted on in 2007/8

 

Lloyd's took a CCJ out against me in 2009. This fell off my credit record in 2015. I did pay Lowell £15 per month against this up until 2017 and I've paid nothing since.   

 

However, Overdales acting for Lowell,  have now sent me a County Court Claim form from the county court business centre showing that they intend to take out another CCJ against me for this debt.

 

I have no details of the original CCJ, as it was in 2009, and so I can't prove I had to one challenge this.  I have read that you can't have two CCJs against the same debt, but can't find anything else. 

 

Any advice on how to defend this second CCJ would really be appreciated. 

 

I have 28 days to responded to the court From 31 Jan 22. 

 

 I'm not sure how it's fair for this to be brought back onto my credit record after such a long time and if this is actually legal.

 

Lloyd's never fully enforced the original CCJ and (from my memory) sold it to Lowel. approx 2009/10.

 

 

My Particulars of claim were : - 

 

Which Court have you received the claim from ? County Court Business Centre 4th Floor St Katherines House Northampton N1 2LH

 

Name of the Claimant ? Lowell Portfolio I Ltd, Ellington House Leeds LS10 5GA

 

Date of issue –  01 Feb 2022

 

 

Particulars of Claim

 

What is the claim for –

Particulars of Claim : - 

 

1.The Claim is for the sum of £8154 due by the defendant under an agreement regulated by the consumer credit act 1974 for a Lloyds banking group account with the reference XXXXXX

 

2.The defendant failed to maintain contractual payments required by the agreement and a default notice was served  under s.87(1) of the consumer credit act 1974 which has not been complied with. 

 

3.The debt was legally assigned to us on 29/06/2018, notice of which has been given to the defendant. 

 

The claim includes statutory interest under s.69 of the county court act 1984 at a rate of 8% per annum from the date of assignment to the date of issues of these proceedings in the sum of £0.00.

 

The claimant claims the sum of £8154.

 

What is the total value of the claim? £8709.01
 

Have you received prior notice of a claim being issued pursuant to paragraph 3 of the PAPDC (Pre Action Protocol) ? I’m not 100% sure here, but having read the guidance, I would say yes.  I have received letters from Lowell and a couple of letter from Overdales about the debt.
 

Have you changed your address since the time at which the debt referred to in the claim was allegedly incurred? Yes
 

Did you inform the claimant of your change of address? No

Is the claim for - a Bank Account (Overdraft) or credit card or loan or catalogue or mobile phone account? Loan
 

When did you enter into the original agreement before or after April 2007 ? Yes

 

Do you recall how you entered into the agreement...On line /In branch/By post ? Online

 

Is the debt showing on your credit reference files (Experian/Equifax /Etc...) ? It was up until approx. Oct 2015
 

Has the claim been issued by the original creditor or was the account assigned and it is the Debt purchaser who has issued the claim. The debt purchaser
 

Were you aware the account had been assigned – did you receive a Notice of Assignment? Yes

 

Did you receive a Default Notice from the original creditor? Yes
 

Have you been receiving statutory notices headed “Notice of Sums in Arrears”  or " Notice of Arrears "– at least once a year ? Yes
 

Why did you cease payments? I got into further debt and thought that, as the debt was no longer on my credit file as of Oct 2015.  My last payment of £15 was in July 2017 an communication with them.
 

What was the date of your last payment? July 2017
 

Was there a dispute with the original creditor that remains unresolved? No
 

Did you communicate any financial problems to the original creditor and make any attempt to enter into a debt management plan? Yes, Lloyds, who ignored it and passed the debt to Lowell.  I entered into £15 per month with Lowell approx. Oct 2011.

 

 

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I was just about to post my defence,  having received no reply to the CCS request and only a letter of assignment form Overdlaes in response to the CPR 31.14, which was sent to the wrong address.   

 

I've read a number of the other threads on here around CCJ defences and have tried to formulate my defence from these and was wondering if anyone could give me some advice on it before I formally submit it to the court.   

 

My main concern is my defence point 2, does this come across as admitting to the loan.  Should I just remove the CCJ part and take that forward at a latter date?  

 

Many thanks again for any advice on this.  

 

 

Particulars of Claim : - 

 

1.The Claim is for the sum of £8154.01 due by the defendant under an agreement regulated by the consumer credit act 1974 for a Lloyds banking group PLC account with an account  reference of XXXXXX

 

2.The defendant failed to maintain contractual payments required by the agreement and a default notice was served under s.87(1) of the consumer credit act 1974 which has not been complied with. 

 

3.The debt was legally assigned to us on 29/06/2018, notice of which has been given to the defendant. 

 

4.The claim includes statutory interest under s.69 of the county court act 1984 at a rate of 8% per annum from the date of assignment to the date of issues of these proceedings in the sum of £0.00.

 

5.The claimant claims the sum of £8154.

 

What is the total value of the claim? £8709.01

 

Defence : -

1. The Defendant contends that the particulars of claim are vague and generic in nature.   The Defendant accordingly sets out its case below and relies on CPR r.16.5 (3) in relation to any particular allegation to which a specific response has not been made.

 

2. Particulars of Claim point 1 is noted. The Defendant has in the past had financial dealings with TSB Bank, then formally Lloyds Bank PLC between 1987 to 2009,  however, is unable to recall the precise details of the alleged agreement or debt by which the Claimant refers to within this claim. The Defendant recalls Lloyds Bank PLC obtaining a County Court Judgment against her sometime between 2008/2009 for a defaulted unsecured personal loan.

 

The Defendant no longer has any records or documentation pertaining to this loan or County court Judgement due to the timeframe that has lapsed.  

 

Lloyds Bank PLC have advised the Defendant “verbally” that they are unable to confirm if this loan is in fact the same loan now pursed by the Claimant, due to their records being archived.  

 

LLloyds Bank PLC did advise the Defendant that the account referred to by the claimant was closed by them in August 2008. 

 

The Defendant has had no further personal loans with Lloyds Bank PLC since 2008/09 and therefore assumes the Claimant is pursuing a debt through the County Court system for which a County Court Judgement has already been set against.

 

3. Particulars of Claim point 2 is denied. I am unaware of any service of a Default Notice pursuant to section 87 of the consumer credit Act 1974. I have sought verification from the claimant regarding this matter and to date they have failed comply.

 

4. Particulars of Claim point 3 is denied. I am unaware of any debt being legally assigned to the Claimant on 29/06/2018.

 

  I have asked the Claimant for proof of this Notice and was provided with copies of two letters, both dated 16/07/2018. 

 

However, both letters were incorrectly addressed with a partial address.  My address at that time was X, the copies of the letters show they were sent to X, which is totally different address in existence. 

 

As these letters were posted to the wrong address, it is unlikely I would have received them.


5. The Defendant has sought clarification by way of a CPR 31.14 through signed delivery dated 08/02/2022. To this date the claimant has been unable to comply fully with this request and therefore has been unable to prove its basis of claim, pleaded within its particulars of Claim and consequently is prevented from enforcing the agreement until such compliance.

 

6. The Claimant was requested on 08/02/2022, pursuant to s.77 of the consumer credit Act 1974, by way of  a signed delivery enclosing a £1 postal order, to provide a true copy of the credit agreement relating to the account, together with any other documentation the Act requires them to provide. 

 

The Claimant has neither acknowledged this request or provided the documentation.

 

7. It is therefore not accepted with regards to the Defendant owing any monies to the Claimant and the Claimant is put to strict proof to:-

 

a) show how the Defendant has entered into an agreement and;

b) show how the Defendant has reached the amount claimed for and;

c) show the nature of the breach and evidence by way of a Default Notice pursuant to sec 87(1) of the Consumer Credit Act 1974

d) show how the Claimant has the legal right, either under statute or equity to issue a claim

e) show that the Defendant has correctly been provided Notice of Assignment.

 

 

 

 

 

 

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welcome to our weird problem at present 

 

i'll look later

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please don't hit Quote...just type we know what we said earlier..

DCA's view debtors as suckers, marks and mugs

NO DCA has ANY legal powers whatsoever on ANY debt no matter what it's Type

and they

are NOT and can NEVER  be BAILIFFS. even if a debt has been to court..

If everyone stopped blindly paying DCA's Tomorrow, their industry would collapse overnight... 

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Do not submit the above if the debt is already subject to a judgment....I will pop in tomorrow and advise.

 

Andy

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Have you got details of the original judgment ...claim number date of judgment ?

We could do with some help from you.

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Posted (edited)

Hi Andyorch,

 

No, that was the problem.

 

I do recall defaulting in  2008/09 and recall it dropping off my credit file approx Oct 2015.  But I only ever had one loan with Lloyd's that defaulted and that was the one they put a ccj on. 

 

I've contacted Lloyd's over the phone, who advised me that all my accounts were archived and I'd have to write to their archived team, which would take time. 

 

They did advise me that Lowell had contacted them, and they appeared to be asking for the documents I requested in the CPR 31.14 letter. So it would appear Lowell don't have these documents either, or didn't a couple of weeks ago.

 

So without any evidence of the CCJ I'm a little stuck because, if I can't prove it and Lloyd's no longer have the records due to its age and or DPA, I'm not sure how to defned it on that basis. 

 

Any advice would be appreciated. 

Thank you  

 

 

Edited by dx100uk
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You could check the Land Registry if not already to see if a Charge was placed in connection to the judgment or make an inquiry with the Registry Trust from their archives. 

 

https://www.registry-trust.org.uk/

 

We could do with some help from you.

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WWW.TRUSTONLINE.ORG.UK

 

We could do with some help from you.

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Ok, thanks, I wasn't aware of this.   I'll request a full report, you never know, it maybe there. 

  

Also, if I can't find details of the old CCJ, is my defence sufficient or should I remove any mention of the CCJ.  Is there anything I could add that may enhance it a little. 

 

Many thanks for your help. 

 

 

 

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No the defence above is totally unsuitable for a claim for a debt which has already been adjudged. You cant get a CCJ twice for the same debt...Res Judicata would apply here and a defence would have to be specifically drafted to challenge the claim .....with or without evidence if you cant confirm details of the judgment.....if drfated the correct way.

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OK, just searched new and old address (uk wide) and both records state I'm  completely clear of any judgements/orders. Never thought I'd be disappointed in that. 

 

 I’ve googled what Res Judicata is,  and read some points on how you prove Re Judicata, obviously briefly, so i may have got this wrong.

 

But, as i have no paperwork or documentation to show this has gone to court, my defence would reply on my own recollection and statement of a previous CCJ.

 

I would then hope that the bank still hold details of this CCJ and have not removed documents relating to the original ccj because of DPA, when they archived my records. 

 

I guess the fact the bank closed this loan account in 2008 might add some weight, but could this backfire on me. 

 

Through RJ, could i inadvertently admit to the debt, bit fail to prove RJ through the court.  I appreciate these are what ifs.

 

Are there any threads you could refer to where I could formulate a RJ defence.  I only have a few days left now. 

 

Many thanks for any help you can give. 

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Have you checked the Land Registry ? Was the CCJ at the old or new address (2009) ...when did you change address?

 

 

 

.

We could do with some help from you.

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Yes, went in and paid £20 for two reports from  registry-trust ,

 

One at my old address and one at my new address. I changed address in May 2020. 

 

Unless I picked the wrong report. But it covered whole of the UK and all judgement. 

 

Summary report was green with no records found at either address.

 

I've checked the site again and it doesn't really offer old CCJ info from what I can tell.

 

The ccj was in 2009 and was at my old address.

 

I've seen a land reg check at my old address in the last few years and it's not registered there.

 

Would a CCJ be registered with Land Reg?   It was never set as a charge against my property.

 

 

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Well it wont show anything they fall away after 6 years.....hence my post #9 to request specifically information on historic archive.

 

So what about the Land Registry with regards to your old property and to see if a charge was placed on your deeds ?

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No charge was ever placed against my previous address, as I wasn't on the deeds at the time of the ccj.

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Fair enough simply a process of elimination ...and you are absolutely sure that this debt has already been subject to litigation and it resulted in a default judgment. 

 

I can draft you a Res Judicata defence but just need to sure up the time frame.

The CCJ you think was issued around ?  Its no longer showing on your credit files which would indicate its older than 6 years.

 

Quote

I do recall defaulting in  2008/09 and recall it dropping off my credit file approx Oct 2015.

 

The above is not real guidance as to the claim date or judgment date...unfortunately. 

We could do with some help from you.

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Posted (edited)

Hi Andyorch, 

 

Yes, so from memory and I believe it's pretty accurate, I started to fall into debt with all creditors in 2007/08 and then received defaults on most accounts in 2008 with one creditor "Lloyds" taking a CCJ out against a personal loan account in 2009. 

 

I recall the CCJ falling from my credit record in 2015 and think it was October that year. 

 

Lloyds advised me that they closed the loan account in August 2008, but i'm pretty sure this loan was subject to a CCJ and possibly via Lloyds arrears dept. 

 

Despite my mountain of debt at the time, it was the only creditor who took out a CCJ against me and my one and only CCJ ever,  which is why I recall it. 

 

What confuses me now, thinking about it, is that Lowell claim to have taken over the debt from Lloyds in June 2018, yet I made payments to Lowell for this debt up until July 2017. 

 

I've gone back and checked my bank statements.   So, I'm just wondering if Lloyds could have accidently sold the debt twice to Lowell? 

 

I'd really appreciate a draft of a Res Judicata,   I've been reading up on it .. but think it's a little out of my ability level to fully write a defence. 

 

Many thanks for your advice and help with this. 

 

 

Edited by dx100uk
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Around that period Lloyds were litigating direct rather than assigning debt through a DCA. Their favored Solicitors that dealt with court claims were SCM based in Sussex....not sure if that rings any bells ?

 

Quote

What confuses me now, thinking about it, is that Lowell claim to have taken over the debt from Lloyds in June 2018, yet I made payments to Lowell for this debt up until July 2017.  I've gone back and checked my bank statements

 

What date did the payments start and how much have you paid them ? ...what was the reference of payment in connection to with Lowell ?

 

 

 

.

We could do with some help from you.

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We could do with some help from you.

PLEASE HELP US TO KEEP THIS SITE RUNNING EVERY POUND DONATED WILL HELP US TO KEEP HELPING OTHERS

 

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Hi,

 

No, never heard of SCM and my bank records show no payments going to them. 

 

 I just came to an agreement to pay a number of creditors at the time to get them off my back around 2011/12, 

 

 I then decided to just stop paying  in 2017 to see what happened and get the occasional letter following up credit cards etc. But nothing worrying and just asking me to contact  them etc. 

 

But lowells seem to have been a bit more aggressive in the last 2 months,  possibly because I've managed to restore my credit record and get a mortgage, so they may think I've got money to pay them.

 

There is no reference associated to the DD payment going to Lowell, but I know that this was for the lloyds loan. 

 

 I will chase my bank up today to see if they can give me a ref associated to the DD. And let you know ASAP.

 

Sorry, I've not got much to go on, which is my concern. I'd  not heard from this loan in years and assumed, as it had a ccj, they couldn't do anything.

 

I'm kicking myself now for not keeping the records, which I probably destroyed when moved in 2020. 

 

Per my calculations, I've only got the next day or so to file my defence, as the N9 was dated 01/02/2022.  I filed my "defend all" on 7 Feb 22.  

 

Many thanks for helping with this. 

 

Sorry just seen the link re SCM.. interesting. It could be possible, although I don't recollect dealing with them. But at that time I wasn't opening post etc... 

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Your deadline is Friday 4th March by 4.00pm. If you could get any information re DD that would be helpful because if we are to submit Res Judicata we have to build a credible history which reflects that a CCJ was attained in or around 2010.It wont be for the claimant to prove that there wasn't a judgment but for you to prove there was.

 

I have a nagging feeling that Lowells were not litigating on LLoyds debts around that time...that is what concerns me.

Find out what you were paying Lowell's for...this is imperative....even if you have to ring them.

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We could do with some help from you.

PLEASE HELP US TO KEEP THIS SITE RUNNING EVERY POUND DONATED WILL HELP US TO KEEP HELPING OTHERS

 

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Agreed .Almost 100% would have been scm for Lloyds as the claimant.

 

Dx

please don't hit Quote...just type we know what we said earlier..

DCA's view debtors as suckers, marks and mugs

NO DCA has ANY legal powers whatsoever on ANY debt no matter what it's Type

and they

are NOT and can NEVER  be BAILIFFS. even if a debt has been to court..

If everyone stopped blindly paying DCA's Tomorrow, their industry would collapse overnight... 

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OK thanks. 

 

ok, I'm going through emails and have found a document dated Nov 2011 where I declared that I was paying £30 per month against a lloyds loan which had a ccj registered against it.  Would a redacted version of this be useful? 

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