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    • Hi, despite saying you would post it up we have not seen the WS or EVRis WS. Please can you post them up.
    • Hi, Sorry its taken me so long to get round to this, i've been pretty busy today. Anyway, just a couple of things based on your observations.   Evri have not seen/read my WS (sent by post and by email) as they would have recognised the claim value is over £1000 as it includes court fees, trial fees, postage costs and interests, and there is a complete breakdown of the different costs and evidence. I'd say theres a 1% chance they read it , but in any case it won't change what they write. They refer to the claim amount that you claimed in your claim form originally, which will likely be in the same as the defence. They use a simple standard copy and paste format for WX and I've never seen it include any amount other than on the claim form but this is immaterial because it makes no difference to whether evri be liable and if so to what value which is the matter in dispute. However, I have a thinking that EVRi staff are under lots of pressure, they seem to be working up to and beyond 7pm even on fridays, and this is quite unusual so they likely save time by just copying and pasting certain lines of their defence to form their WX.   Evri accepts the parcel is lost after it entered their delivery network - again, this is in my WS and is not an issue in dispute. This is just one of their copy paste lines that they always use.   Evri mentions the £25 and £4.82 paid by Packlink - Again, had they read the WS, they would have realised this is not an issue in dispute. They probably haven't read your WS but did you account for this in your claim form?   Furthermore to the eBay Powered By Packlink T&Cs that Evri is referring to, Clauses 3b and c of the T&Cs states:  (b)   Packlink is a package dispatch search engine that acts as an intermediary between its Users and Transport Agencies. Through the Website, Users can check the prices that different Transport Agencies offer for shipments and contract with the Transport Agency that best suits their needs on-line. (c)  Each User shall then enter into its own contract with the chosen Transport Agency. Packlink does not have any control over, and disclaims all liability that may arise in contracts between a User and a Transport Agency This supports the view that once a user (i.e, myself) selects a transport agency (i.e Evri) that best suits the user's needs, the user (i.e, myself) enters into a contract with the chosen transport agency (i.e, myself). Therefore, under the T&Cs, there is a contract between myself and Evri.   This is correct but you have gone into this claim as trying to claim as a third party. I would say that you need to pick which fight you wan't to make. Either you pick the fight that you contracted directly with EVRi therefore you can apply the CRA OR you pick the fight that you are claiming as a third party contract to a contract between packlink and EVRi. Personally, I would go with the argument that you contracted directly with evri because the terms and conditions are pretty clear that the contract is formed with EVRi and so if the judge accepts this you are just applying your CR under CRA 2015, of which there has only been 2 judges I have seen who have failed to accept the argument of the CRA.   Evri cites their pre-existing agreement with Packlink and that I cannot enforce 3rd party rights under the 1999 Act. Evri has not provided a copy of this contract, and furthermore, my point above explains that the T&Cs clearly explains I have entered into a contract when i chose Evri to deliver my parcel.    This is fine, but again I would say that you should focus on claiming under the contract you have with EVRi as you entered into a direct contract with them according to packlink, as this gives less opportunites for the judge to get things wrong, also I think this is a much better legal position because you can apply your CR to it, if you dealt with a third party claim you would likely need to rely on business contract rights.   As explained in my WS, i am the non-gratuitous beneficiary as my payment for Evri's delivery service through Packlink is the sole reason for the principal contract coming into existence. I wouldn't focus this as your argument. I did think about this earlier and I think the sole focus of your claim should be that you contracted with evri and any term within their T&Cs that limits their liability is a breach of CRA. If you try to argue that the payment to packlink is the sole reason for the contract coming in between EVRI and packlink then you are essentially going against yourself since on one hand you are (And should be) arguing that you contracted directly with EVRi, but on the other hand by arguing about funding the contract between packlink and evri you are then saying that the contract is between packlink and evri not you and evri.  I think you should focus your argument that the contract is between you and evri as the packlink T&C's say.   Clearly Evri have not read by WS as the above is all clearly explained in there.   I doubt they have too, but I think their witness statement more than anything is an attempt to sort of confuse things. They reference various parts of the T&Cs within their WS and I've left some more general points on their WS below although I do think  point 3b as you have mentioned is very important because it says "Users can check the prices that different Transport Agencies offer for shipments and contract with the Transport Agency that best suits their needs on-line." which I would argue means that you contract directly with the agency. For points 9 and 10 focus on term 3c of the contract  points 15-18 are the same as points 18-21 of the defence if you look at it (as i said above its just a copy paste exercise) point 21 term 3c again point 23 is interesting - it says they are responsible for organising it but doesnt say anything about a contract  More generally for 24-29 it seems they are essentially saying you agreed to packlinks terms which means you can't have a contract with EVRI. This isnt true, you have simply agreed to the terms that expressly say your contract is formed with the ttransport agency (EVRi). They also reference that packlinks obligations are £25 but again this doesn't limit evris obligations, there is nothing that says that the transport agency isnt liable for more, it just says that packlinks limitation is set. for what its worth point 31 has no applicability because the contract hasn't been produced.   but overall I think its most important to focus on terms 3b and 3c of the contract and apply your rights as a consumer and not as a third party and use the third party as a backup   
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Lowell/Overdales Claimform - old Lloyds TSB loan facilitated by Loans Direct debt subject to existing 2009 CCJ ***Claim Discontinued***


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You keep saying you have paid against this loan with an existing ccj that you have no real proof of ,

 

you rang at that time and paid iqor and latterly wetcloths £15pcm then £30pcm till 2017.

 

but none of the payments show as the original balance has never decreased since the ccj time?

 

i think you are wrong somewhere on this again.

 

Just doesn't make sense

 

Dx

 

 

please don't hit Quote...just type we know what we said earlier..

DCA's view debtors as suckers, marks and mugs

NO DCA has ANY legal powers whatsoever on ANY debt no matter what it's Type

and they

are NOT and can NEVER  be BAILIFFS. even if a debt has been to court..

If everyone stopped blindly paying DCA's Tomorrow, their industry would collapse overnight... 

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I didn't ask anything I already know the breakdown of claim....The particulars are for my reference only when drafting the response you do not submit it with your defence.

 

I would be more interested on your thoughts on the amendments and additions I have made and the reasoning and that you are happy with the proposed defence?

We could do with some help from you.

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Hi Andyorch, 

 

Thank you, Yes, it reads a lot better and I am happy with the amendments made. 

 

I will formally write it up and add the required declaration of it being a true and accurate account etc. 

 

 If it's ok can I post it here for you to review before I formally submit it online?

 

Many thanks 

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You shouldn't need to simply copy and paste the defence part into MCOL before 4.00pm...MCOL does not require a declaration (Statement of Truth) ...do it now.

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Hi Dx,

 

Yes, I think I was confused at the beginning because, as it was Lowell who had taken the court action for the Lloyds Loan, i naturally just assumed the £15 per month I was paying back in 2017  to Lowell was for this loan.   

 

it wasn't until this week, when I found an old financial declaration I made  in 2011, that the £15 payments to Lowell were actually for a Capital one CC and in fact the £30 payments I was making to Westcott were in fact for the Lloyds loan.  This then made sense, because Lowell acquired the Lloyds Loan from Lloyds in June 2018. 

 

Overdales also confirmed to me yesterday that I had been making payments against the loan via Westcott. 

 

They also stated that the defaulted balance of the loan was around £9k, but got confused over the phone and i'm still awaiting this information in a formal response to my 31.14.   

 

it is possible the £30's have been credited which is why the balance is now around £8k, but they cannot formally confirm the actual defaulted balance, so until they do, I've got to assume that not all the £30 have been credited to the loan.   

 

To be honest, I really didn't understand the assignment of a loan and the other  legal requirements around consumer credit, until I received the CCJ claim form and asked for advice on this forum, which i've really appreciated .  

 

I realise I have been naïve and foolish in not keeping proper records and thinking that the debts were so old and, as I'd not heard about them in years, that they had just been written off.  But I am adamant that the Lloyds Loan was subject to a CCJ because it was the only one i've ever had and had an impact on me at the time. I also state that the Lloyds Loan was subject to a CCJ in my declaration dated 2011, which is when it would have still been on my credit file

 

Hopefully that makes a bit more sense. 

 

Andyorch and DX, 

 

Thank you both so much for your help with this, I'm so grateful, as I wouldn't have known where to start my defence or about CPR 31.14 etc.   I've submitted my defence and now await a response

 

I'll keep you updated with any further correspondence.

 

Many thanks 

 

 

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part of the total owed/sum confusion is that overdales also said that the balance they quoted on their statement was the loan and OD balances combined. but have not inc the OD part in the claimform sum. 

 

but: 

  

On 02/03/2022 at 12:02, j70han said:

Yes, I declare I have a Lloyds loan of approx. £7,900 which I pay £30 per month for and it is subject to a CCJ. 

the lloyds loan was £7900 at the date of you above list, you paid After this date into2017, and guessed this to be approx £2k, so the balance, in terms of the claimform should be about £5k.

 

even if you add in the OD balance of £800 , it doesnt make £8154 on the claimform.....

 

you are missing these payments still, i wonder what info wetcloths or annikika or iqor have? cant hurt to ring them with their correct ref numbers surely..

 

 

please don't hit Quote...just type we know what we said earlier..

DCA's view debtors as suckers, marks and mugs

NO DCA has ANY legal powers whatsoever on ANY debt no matter what it's Type

and they

are NOT and can NEVER  be BAILIFFS. even if a debt has been to court..

If everyone stopped blindly paying DCA's Tomorrow, their industry would collapse overnight... 

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Yes, that's a good point.  Especially as I now know the westcott payments were for the Lloyd's loan, so won't be awakening any old debt. 

 

I'm wondering if it would be worth sending a SAR, as it took lots of calls to Lloyd's and being passed about for days before I actually spoke to anyone, that could help.   Also, it may assist me cross matching it agaianst my scheduleof payments, if it'sever sent to me. 

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and you've moved since these times?

 

 

please don't hit Quote...just type we know what we said earlier..

DCA's view debtors as suckers, marks and mugs

NO DCA has ANY legal powers whatsoever on ANY debt no matter what it's Type

and they

are NOT and can NEVER  be BAILIFFS. even if a debt has been to court..

If everyone stopped blindly paying DCA's Tomorrow, their industry would collapse overnight... 

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Yes, i moved June 2020. They also seem to have missed out part of my address at my old property, which is probably why I never received anything and assumed it'd been written off.  it wasn't until I moved they've started to write to me in the last 6 months.  

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And of course you never updated any of your debt owners you had moved. Who knows what letters went there.

 

Dx

  • I agree 1

please don't hit Quote...just type we know what we said earlier..

DCA's view debtors as suckers, marks and mugs

NO DCA has ANY legal powers whatsoever on ANY debt no matter what it's Type

and they

are NOT and can NEVER  be BAILIFFS. even if a debt has been to court..

If everyone stopped blindly paying DCA's Tomorrow, their industry would collapse overnight... 

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Share on other sites

  • 1 month later...

 

I thought I'd provide an update to this, but also ask for a bit more advice.  

 

I've had a few documents in response to my defence and 31.14 request sent in Feb 22.

 

However, Overdales have not fully replied to either. 

 

They have provided a copy of the credit agreement, which I've attached.

 

But not a copy of the default notice or full statement of payments showing how the balance due is calculated or owed. 

 

However, today I received a "Notice of Proposed Allocation to the Small Claim Track"  which i've also attached, and am a little confused and concerned by.   

 

I was under the impression they couldn't proceed unless they'd fully replied to the 31.14 or my defence. 

 

I intend to reject this proposal, but am wondering where that leaves me with the court? Could I still get a CCJ despite this.?

 

Also, i've read lots on here about credit agreements etc. especially pre 2007, which mine is. 

 

I was wandering if anyone could provide some advice on the attached agreement?

 

It states at the top that it is a non cancellation letter loan agreement. 

 

My understanding was that there had to be a 14 day cooling off period.  Again, having read some posts and this being pre 2007, is this classed as acceptable? 

 

Any advice on this, as always, is greatly appreciated.   

New claim.pdf

Thanks 

 

 

$ PAGES AGREEMENT.pdf

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Quote

 I was under the impression they couldn't proceed unless they'd fully replied to the 31.14 or my defence.  I intend to reject this proposal, but am wondering where that leaves me with the court? 

 

Wherever did you get that assumption from ?  There is no requirement to respond to anything until the claim has been allocated to track which is the next step. If you do not complete and submit the N180 your defence will be struck out and a CCJ will be granted to the claimant.

 

 

 

Quote

 It states at the top that it is a non-cancellable loan agreement.  My understanding was that there had to be a 14 day cooling off period.  Again, having read some posts and this being pre 2007, is this classed as acceptable? 

 

 

Only if it was an off premises application (Distance selling Regs).....if you signed in branch there is no cooling off period.

 

 

 

.

.

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go check MCOL too

does the status say you have been sent an N180 too?

as that letter is simply the court informing you they have sent an N180 to the claimant and if they dont respond by 9th may the claim will die.

 

 

 

  • Thanks 1

please don't hit Quote...just type we know what we said earlier..

DCA's view debtors as suckers, marks and mugs

NO DCA has ANY legal powers whatsoever on ANY debt no matter what it's Type

and they

are NOT and can NEVER  be BAILIFFS. even if a debt has been to court..

If everyone stopped blindly paying DCA's Tomorrow, their industry would collapse overnight... 

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Share on other sites

Quote

if they dont respond by 9th may the claim will die.

 

Claim will be stayed.

  • Thanks 1

We could do with some help from you.

PLEASE HELP US TO KEEP THIS SITE RUNNING EVERY POUND DONATED WILL HELP US TO KEEP HELPING OTHER

 

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Thanks for your replies.  Ok, I was confused and will read up on this a bit more and complete to online portal and continue to dispute the claim. 

 

Re the Credit Agreement, it wasn't signed in person, it was done through the postal system.  The bank signed it on 03/05/2005 and I signed it on 06/05/05. i believe the stamp on the top dated 07/05/05 is the date received through the post by Lloyds TSB. I'm just wondering if there is anything in the credit agreement which may assist me in my defence through the court?

 

I was also wondering, as this is a Lloyds TSB loan facilitated by Loans Direct, should I have received notification when Lloyds TSB split, which was in 2013 when my account had been in default for some years, and that it was now a Lloyds account? 

 

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Complete, file and serve the N180 by the date stated and lets get to allocation...

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We could do with some help from you.

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I'm about to submit the N180 and just wanted to confirm I've read everything correctly.   

 

When completing the N180 I should tick that I agree that the small claims track is the appropriate track for this case.  I can then continue with my defence at the hearing? 

 

There is the option to have it referred to the small claims medium service, which I intend to tick no.  Or should I also tick yes to this?  

 

I  just want to make sure i'm filing this correctly. 

 

Thank for your help. 

 

 

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3 copies

yes to mediation (unless you filed our Statute Barred Defence OR this is a claim for a Private Parking Ticket)

1 wit you

the rest is obv

1 to the court

1 to sols (omit phone/sig/email)

1 for your file

 

dx

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please don't hit Quote...just type we know what we said earlier..

DCA's view debtors as suckers, marks and mugs

NO DCA has ANY legal powers whatsoever on ANY debt no matter what it's Type

and they

are NOT and can NEVER  be BAILIFFS. even if a debt has been to court..

If everyone stopped blindly paying DCA's Tomorrow, their industry would collapse overnight... 

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Share on other sites

OK, N180 filed with court and Overdales.  Understanding the process a little better now, I don't think overdales have filed a N180 as yet and have until Monday. So will keep you updated. 

 

Many thanks for your help 

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  • 4 months later...

Hi, 

 

I just wanted to update this thread, as it is still ongoing and may assist others, as I received a lot of help here when I first got notified I was being taken to country court.  

 

I filed my DQ stating I was happy to go for mediation in May 22 and my case was transferred to my local court in July 22. 

 

I got notification from my local court in early September 22 that they had issued a "General Form of Judgment Order" to the claimants requesting they properly serve a particulars of claim to me by 4pm on  21/09/22. 

 

I did not receive these updated particulars of claim until 26/09/22 and they were dated 15/09/22.  However, I advised the court via email on 22/09/22 that I had not received these documents and when I spoke to the court on this same date, they had also not received any copies. 

 

The new particulars of claim do not really provide any updates, other than a copy of my signed loan agreement dated 2005, which include my monthly payments and direct debit mandate. 

 

There are still 3 years of missing payments.  I was initially not going to respond to these new particulars of claim, as they were not filed to me on time.

 

However, writing this update now, I'm thinking should I, and again challenge the missing payments, or just wait for mediation, when it happens?

 

I will keep this thread updated when things happen.

 

Thanks 

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  • 6 months later...

I just wanted to provide a final update to this (I hope) since my last post in September 22. 

 

I had not heard anything from the court since I got the notification from my local court in early September 22 regarding the "General Form of Judgment Order" to the claimants requesting they properly serve a particulars of claim to me by 4pm on 21/09/22. 

 

That was until 24/03/2023 when I received notification that my claim had been accepted onto the small claims track and a hearing had been scheduled for early June 23. on the same date I also received a copy of a further "General Form of Judgment Order” ordering the claimants to comply with Para 1 of the order dated 22/09/22. 

 

On 31/03/23 I then received another bundle form Overdales advising it was in response to the Orders from the court dated 22/09/22 and 24/03/23. From what I can tell, this bundle was the same as the previous bundle and included no further documentation relating to the loan.

 

Today I received notification from Overdales that their client “Lowell” had instructed them to discontinue with the claim and enclosed a copy of the “Notice of Discontinuance” sent to the court.   I’m assuming this was due to my local court issuing a "General Form of Judgment Order" which they were unable to comply with.  Either way, I’m hoping this is the end of this.

 

I just wanted to express a massive thank you for the help and assistance I received from this site over the last 14 months especially Andyorch and dx100uk.

 

I believe the  defence I submitted resulted in the Orders from the court and definitely contributed to the court asking the claimants for further details, which, by the looks of it, they were unable to comply with. 

 

I would not have been able to submit this defence without their assistance.   Thank you.

 

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Well done topic title updated .

 

Andy

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