tfl summons to court, misuse of freedom pass. confused with letter

[sbrmaixx]

Hi everyone, 

I've gotten a letter from TFL to attend court because I was caught using a freedom oyster card that wasn't mine.

 

I've emailed twice for OOC and I've not received a response.

 

But I wanted to ask about the letter, I've attached it onto here.

 

The reason they gave me to come to court is to identify the issues in the case then fix a trial date.

So will this mean I will have to attend court again after this?

I thought it was just a one time occurrence. stc letter new.pdf

 

Any thoughts would be appreciated, thank you! 

[dx100uk]

can you post up everything in/out to date please

there is obviously far more than just those 5 lines that has gone on to date.

 

we cant ever hope to understand without the complete picture please

 

oh and PS please rotate any PDF the rightway up...

[sbrmaixx]

Hi dx100uk,

 

this is everything, the rest is just 'you are summonsed to attend the court sitting at' then it says the address. And of course the rest is my name and address, which is why the picture is cropped haha. The back page is just about advice and help and that I need to arrive 30min before my court hearing.

[dx100uk]

i meant to date not just that letter! we know what that looks like bar that bit they are all the same.

but we've never seen one ask for a CMD

you emails etc. did you dispute it was you?

how many times did you use it

what type of card

which court too please?

 

they are usually single justice court with no CMD's etc.

 

 

[sbrmaixx]

I was caught at the end of August by an undercover TFL person, 

 

he asked me what card I used and told him honestly that it was my mums.

 

He then brought me to another person who took my details and asked why I used it and I said it was a mistake.

 

They then sent me a letter which I had to respond to within 10 days, and did.

 

They then sent me another letter about court and if I wished to plead guilty and I did plead guilty for it and to attend court. 

 

I did state it was me who used it, and it's a freedom pass. I've used the freedom pass countless times. 

 

And are CMDs bad? The court is at Lavender Hill Magistrates Court.

Edited February 28, 2022 by dx100uk
Added some blank lines. Please space your post not one mass block of text

[dx100uk]

As I said scan the lot up to one mass pdf please after redacting.

 

Dx

 

 

[sbrmaixx]

Hi Dx, 

 

So you want me to upload the previous letters? 

[dx100uk]

Everything in/out to date in whatever comms method it was sent/received.

 

trying to understand why they want a cmd to discuss things..not the usual route .

 

Dx

[sbrmaixx]

Hi Dx,

 

I've attached it onto this. When I was questioned at the station, they asked me what I would have used instead and I said a student card but I only use my debit card. Maybe this is why they want a Case management hearing? 

 

TFL 28.02.22 all.pdf

[dx100uk]

So could be a good or a bad move to have a cmd.

 

 Bad, ...they want to catch you out. As youve lied in writing it was only one use due to your medical excuses.

 

You have used the card numerous times and there is a pattern to its use that points to a std work related travel and that the card you should have used, shows no use at all from the above information.

 

Good.. They can see you are in a bad place and want to hear your genu remorse and hardship first hand.

 

DX

[sbrmaixx]

Thanks Dx, I guess I'll just have to wait and see 

[Man in the middle]

TfL seem to work in mysterious ways. A number of things seem odd:

 

It is not TfL's responsibility (nor is it within their gift) to summon you to court. The court will do that when they have decided a date for your hearing.

 

A "case management" hearing is only necessary when you have formally entered a "Not Guilty" plea in court. From what you say you have not done that yet (not least because you haven't been asked to do so and if and when you are asked to enter a plea it will presumably be one of "Guilty"). Even then, it is for the court to decide whether one is necessary or not.

 

Have you received any correspondence at all from the court? If not, I would contact TfL and ask them:

• Whether they have initiated court proceedings yet (as an aside, if they haven't it's too late - their six months runs out today).
• When you can expect to hear from the court asking you to attend
• Why they have assumed you will plead Not Guilty
• Under whose authority they have decided a Case Management hearing will be held

It all seems rather strange - unless there's something I'm missing.

[sbrmaixx]

Hi Man in the Middle, 

Sorry that was my mistake, it was the court that did, not TFL. But i did state that I am guilty and I want to come to court. I've gotten another opinion that they might have mistakenly put my case as a not-guilty one, although I 100% have stated that I'm guilty.

 

I have emailed the single justice system, hopefully they correct this because it seems they're treating this as a case where I pleaded not guilty. I've gotten the date for my court summons, it's in April.

[Man in the middle]

Ah, that's different, then!

 

You need to ensure the court has your correct plea asap.

[BazzaS]

Unusual for a CMD in this scenario.

Likely thoughts:

a) they don't have you 'bang to rights' and they've seen where you say it was a one-off and you 'used the wrong pass' They have asked you for details of 'the right pass' and you haven't supplied it, and they want to clarify this before offering you an alternative disposal (this would be good news, though not so good if when they ask you about the other pass you meant to use you have to say "I never had another pass, I just mean the tickets I bought / used my contact-less card for").

b) they have you 'bang to rights', multiple uses of the freedom pass seen on CCTV, and it wasn't a 'lucky guess' when they stopped you, but intelligence led (not good)..

 

However for both a) and b) the usual way forward is to offer you an interview under caution, not a CMD. So, unless they offered you an interview under caution and never got a reply .... but usually they'd just proceed with the summons if that was the case.

 

So, my money is on c):

c) You indicated 'not guilty', but then also seem to be pleading guilty. The CMD is so the charge can be put to you, and you'll be asked to plead, to clarify what your plea actually is........

[sbrmaixx]

Hi Bazzas,

 

thanks for your reply! I'm still confused though because I did tick guilty. I also never was asked to do any interviews under caution 

[dx100uk]

contact the court should sort it.

 

it might also be worthy to email TLF prosecutions tomorrow...stating you plead guilty to the SJP but they have messed up as i appears they think i stated not guilty and this is causing you untold panic etc issues with your medical condition etc etc , can we please come to some OOC settlement to end my mental torment now. 

 

i offer all costs/fares + any reasonable admin fees in settlement for you not to continue this any further. please show some compassion to me and my family i am in immense torment. i pleaded guilty but now it seems the court has taken that wrongly.

[BazzaS]

Is it that you gave a guilty plea but indicated you wanted to appear in court?

 

If so, you can’t do that with a Single Justice Procedure.

 

By all means follow dx’s advice as a way to try to get an administrative settlement (OOC), then if not see if it can go to a SJP with you highlighting that you’d previously have wanted to attend court to give your apologies / show your remorse but understand that that isn’t an option with the SJP and that you are offering your apologies and mitigation in writing instead, and hope that the use of SJP helps the court manages its time / resources even if it means you can’t give your apologies in person

[sbrmaixx]

Hi dx, thanks for the advice, really appreciate it! 

 

Hi BazzaS, 

 

Yes I ticked guilty and said I wanted to attend court. I thought I had to go to court to show remorse and have a lesser fine? I thought it would look bad if I said I didn't want to go. I've attached what it looks like here, I just submitted it online though. gp doc 01.03.22 pdf.pdf

and again, thank you for the advice BazzaS!

[BazzaS]

That used to be the advice, prior to the SJP (where a single justice of the peace / magistrate looks at the case ‘on the papers’ to reduce court attendance where the case is not contested.

 

For SJP you don’t go to court but

a) apologise ‘on the papers’, and also say

b) you’d previously (when there was no SJP) have gone to court to give your apology but still want to apologise but not take up the court’s time, so are not asking to appear out of respect to the court (to save the court’s time / resources).

[sbrmaixx]

Ohh I see, thanks for clearing that up for me. Do I directly email the court then? 

[dx100uk]

About what?

 

Make yourself a pest to tfl. It might work

[sbrmaixx]

I've written this up, please feel free to make any suggestions. Should I email both to the court and TFL? 

 

Dear to whom it may concern, 

 

my case is x. I received a letter in January, asking me whether I wish to plead guilty or not to my case and if I wish to attend court. 

 

I pleaded guilty and stated that I wish to attend court. I believed that attending court was necessary in order to show remorse for my actions and receive a fine that was less. I’ve been summoned to court to attend a Case Management hearing, despite pleading guilty. 

 

I now understand that attending court and pleading guilty is not possible with a single justice procedure. I apologise for this confusion. I do not wish to waste any of the court’s time or resources. 

 

As a result of this confusion it has negatively impacted my mental health and has caused my anxiety to heighten. I would please like to come to an out of court settlement in order to end my anxiety issues. 

 

I offer all costs and fares and any reasonable admin fees in settlement for you not to continue this any further, and to not give me a criminal conviction. This would greatly benefit my mental health and show compassion to me and my family. 

[dx100uk]

3 hours ago, BazzaS said:

That used to be the advice, prior to the SJP (where a single justice of the peace / magistrate looks at the case ‘on the papers’ to reduce court attendance where the case is not contested.

 

are these changes very recent bazzaS?

 

as not just the other week or 2 we had 2 here that did attend to show personal remorse and got away with just a fine and no record i believe, another also got OOC on the day too.

 

dx

[BazzaS]

No, that is if you go through the SJP.

 

You CAN choose to go to court.

the upside :

a) you might get an OOC (admin settlement)

b) they might be impressed by the defendant’s remorse

 

the downside:

If you get the bench on a bad day when they’ve had a mass of cases that could have gone to SJP but didn’t, insisting on attending court could go against you 

(Magistrates will sentence within the guidelines but the guidelines suggest a range, and they are only human : if they have got irritated they might lean towards the upper end of the scale!)

I doubt it’ll affect if it is recordable, though.

Edited March 1, 2022 by BazzaS