BM Motors Company ,faulty car - Who should i have taken to court?

[DH1991]

Good afternoon,

 

Long story short - Purchased used car in December - car not as described and faulty breaching CRA 2015 and Contract Law - dealer refused refund - trading standards mediation can't financially resolve the situation.

 

I started Small Claims against 2 defendants. The director of the company I bought the car from as an individual, and the director of their sister company based in the same building who prepared the car for sale.

 

He has come back with a defence stating that as the claim is not against the company I purchased the car from, the claim should be struck out.

 

Going through the paperwork more information has come to light and I am not exactly sure what to do next.

 

1, The deposit I paid on a debit card was paid to, and invoiced from a company that dissolved in 2020 (did not find that out until today).

2, The completed purchase invoice is from the active company, but the name isn't exactly the same (LTD instead of Limited)

 

On Companies House, the director of the company has 4 companies all at the same address with different variations of the same name.

 

None of these match my purchase invoice exactly.

 

So, the predicament I am in is that do I risk continuing with the claim as individuals - as according to the paperwork, it isn't 100% clear what company I purchased the car from.

 

Or, do I cancel down the current claim, and restart a fresh claim with the 6 or 7 defendant companies and individuals? Or, as none of them match exactly, will I be at risk of the court throwing the case out as none of these match the invoice name exactly, although all the companies registered have very similar names and the same business retailing used cars.

 

Many thanks.

[dx100uk]

name names please

 

dx

 

[mantis shrimp]

Do you have a company registration number? Is this shown on the invoice?

[DH1991]

No company registration numbers are on either the deposit or sales invoice.

 

I can find all the company registration numbers on companies house - however none of these companies match the name on either the deposit or purchase invoice exactly.

 

Am I required to post this information online right now? I am concerned that any advice given to me may harm my case if the company involved can see what is advised.

 

Thank you both for such quick responses

Edited February 7, 2022 by DH1991

[mantis shrimp]

As per dx, what are the names?

[BankFodder]

There is no disadvantage to you posting up the names of the companies. As long as you are honest and straight dealing, then why the need to play secret squirrel with any of this information.

On the contrary, naming these companies gives people an opportunity to provide extra information which they might have or even share their own expenses with those companies if they have been through a similar experience.

All you're doing is protecting the companies and making life more difficult for everybody. Please give full names of all companies and individuals.

[dx100uk]

there are 10's of threads here whereby people though they had to play secret squirrel and they all took forever to be eventually favourably be resolved .

it does not harm your case - old wives tale!! spill the beans..

 

dx

[DH1991]

Ok, I see your points there and can't disagree!

I'm £2,700 down at the moment.

The most shocking part is that they were a Buy With Confidence trading standards approved dealer, but trading standards can't make them do anything

- although they have struck the company off the Buy with Confidence scheme due to this,

that doesn't help my financially, even though they are still advertising themselves (and in their court defence) that they are still a Trading Standards Approved dealer.

We paid a deposit to BM Car Sales Saltash LTD (which I can only find as dissolved company number: 09658048)

We paid the balance to BM Car Sales LTD, but were invoiced from BM Car Sales Limited (company number: 11185978)

What I don't understand with Companies House is that usually when you click on someone's name, the other companies they are associated with come up

- but Monaf Kussey Altamimi is a director of both BM Motors Saltash LTD and BM Car Sales LTD

, but when you click his name, they don't all come up.

You have to search each company and click his name to see other appointments as directors.

When you do this, it brings up another variation BM Car Sales (SW) Limited (company number: 13751588)

And there is also a mutual company BM Motors Saltash MOT LTD (Company Number: 13448477) to which the director is Adam Steven Elston

- He MOT'd, Serviced and Workshop checked the car (well, it would seem he didn't)

[mantis shrimp]

There is no BM Car Sales LTD - so BM Car Sales Limited is your target.

 

https://find-and-update.company-information.service.gov.uk/search?q=BM+CAR+SALES

 

 

"Ltd" is often used as an abbreviation for "Limited". Some bright spark in government decided to put in the Companies Act 2006 that a company could have either LIMITED or LTD as the formal end of its name. prior to that, it was just "Limited".  This can sometimes cause confusion.

[DH1991]

Thank you very much for that.

 

I was under the impression that LTD and Limited were different things, and it had to be exact.

 

As like you say, when you set up a company you can choose either option.

 

Well, that is a weight off my mind definitely.

 

So now, I'll have to either amend or restart to claim to add BM to it as a company, but I can also have the director as an individual defendant to protect me from the LTD company vanishing along with my money.

[dx100uk]

and naming the directors on the claimform probably wont help either.

 

can you scan up your Particulars of claim you used, who exactly your named as the defendant, and their defence please.

 

this BM car sales rings a bell to me here on CAG but i cant search at present.

 

use one mass PDF ONLY please to upload stuff if you need to upload documents etc. read our upload guide

 

ensure you remove anything they could use in them to ID you here, to comply with our and your GDPR regulations that we must abide by on a website.

 

stuff their details doesnt matter its all in the public domain already.

 

 

[mantis shrimp]

Everything you have said suggests that your contract was with the company - not its (sole) director.

[BankFodder]

I'm reading this thread and I'm trying to understand exactly the chain of events.
I'm not convinced that you did contract with a company.

I think it would be helpful to give us a proper chronology – where you saw the car, details about the car, the MOT, the defects, who you paid the money to – et cetera.
That lot for starters.

Your first post rather launched into mid story and since then we haven't really had the whole story blow by blow in the right order.

[DH1991]

I didn't feel the whole story necessary as I was asking for small claims advice as the issue with the car itself has been dealt with.

 

I appreciate that it may seem a bit mid-story, but the issue isn't with the dealers legal obligations. I've already been through Trading Standards mediation process and they have sided with me so it us unquestionable that the car was not as described and faulty.

 

But if a brief series of events helps;

• I saw the car advertised on Autotrader for £10,000.
• Visited the dealership and viewed the car in person.
• Left a deposit and arranged to collect the car in a week after a squeaking noise had been fixed, along with an advisory free MOT and Service.
• Collected the car a week later, very shortly after the squeaking noise returned, took the car to BMW to diagnose - BMW found the squeaking noise wasn't  fixed, just bodged. Cause was a faulty dampener, a brake sensor cut and shorted together, and headlights miles out of alignment.
• I approached the dealer in person and twice by email- no offer to fix. £800 at BMW later, dealer refused to re-imburse me the bill after email requests.
• Contacted Trading Standards - dealer didn't really co-operate with them and were not acting within the law so they were struck off Buy with Confidence Scheme.
• Trading Standards advised to take the matter to small claims as they can't force the dealer to pay.
• Issued letter before action - no response
• Issued court claim
• Defence received - Moneyclaim online can't offer help

Edited February 7, 2022 by DH1991

[BankFodder]

Thank you so I understand that you have issued a claim for £800 – is that correct?

Have you had any other diagnostics carried out?

Have you had it MOT'd again?

You say that you saw it advertised in autotrader. Under whose name was it advertised?

What is the name of the dealership you visited? What was its address?

Is the car running now?

Please can you put up the claim form and also the defence in single file multipage PDF format

Also, how far away from you is the dealer?

How did you pay?

[DH1991]

Yes, the claim is for just under £800.

I've mentioned a higher number earlier as a fortnight ago the clutch started to give an awful judder, and after reading up to resolve that would likely be a very expensive job.

Tried to call the dealer, but no response.

They just hung the phone up.

decided the best course of action was to sell the car

- I tried to part ex it, but the offer wasn't good enough so I sold it to a dealer for a little more than part x value.

in total I'm £2700 out of pocket in total but the claim is just under £800.

I took the car to BMW only - they found the issue causing the squeak amongst the other issues mentioned.

The car has not been re-MOT'd as I just had the recommended work carried out at BMW.

The car was advertised on Autotrader as 'BM Motors'

The dealership visited was BM Motors Saltash LTD - website www.bmmotorssaltash.co.uk

Car showed symptoms of other faults

-  I had to get rid. Lost all faith in the dealer and the 'warranty' wasn't worth the paper it was written on, and the dealer has already ignored my legal rights with the previous issue.

I paid the £495 deposit on my debit card to the company I have since found out dissolved in 2020, and the £9500 via bank transfer.

I'm having problems uploading at the moment, but I will keep trying.

Thanks again for your help

[BankFodder]

I suggest that you start practising damage limitation. Go to your bank and begin a chargeback process for £495. They won't be happy but push it through. Get the names of people you speak to and reference numbers. Don't stand for any nonsense.

It's a shame that you sold the car it would have been interesting to get an MOT certificate for it. I can imagine that it would fail on all sorts of other things.
You should always be very suspicious when a car supplied you with a brand-new MOT. You will tend to find very often that dealers and their local MOT stations are rather too cosy.
Please read up what rights you sacrifice when you pay by bank transfer or you pay by cash. It is an extremely bad idea.
If you had paid the deposit using a credit card rather than a debit card then you might have been able to invoke the consumer credit act and attempted to make the credit card company liable for the entire sum.
I suggest that the next second-hand car you purchase, you inform yourself a little bit more about the rights that you enjoy, the rights that you sacrifice when you get things wrong, and how to protect yourself.

I'm still trying to understand exactly who sold you the car. I understand that it was advertised by "BM Motors". Are they the company which is now gone into liquidation in 2020? Are they the people to whom you paid the deposit?

 

[DH1991]

Thank you again for your advice.

I will get a chargeback started.

Yes, the car was advertised as BM Motors. The Building the whole transaction took place in was signed up 'BM Motors'

The deposit invoice states the deposit was paid to BM CAR SALES SALTASH LTD - this is the company that dissolved in 2020.

The balance was paid to BM CAR SALES LIMITED.

With hindsight, I should have paid the deposit on a credit card.

With my new car, I paid the deposit on a credit card - and took out a little bit of finance on it too (as thanks to this I couldn't afford to buy it outright)

The way I saw it, as interesting as it would have been to have it MOT'd elsewhere to see what it would fail on

, it wouldn't have changed the facts that I would have approached them and asked them to repair it to a roadworthy standard, and they would have ignored me.

Further looking into their online reviews, it isn't the first time its happened to them.

[mantis shrimp]

The director is not being at all clever in not changing the company name on website or company documents - this can be a ground for him to have a criminal liability, albeit that civil liability for your claim does not appear to be a possibillity (it was before the 2006 Companies Act!)

 

- https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2015/17/regulation/25 and

 

- https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2015/17/regulation/28

 

 

Trading Standards may be interested.

[DH1991]

Thanks for the links and the advice.

Sounds like a pointless exercise attempting to take them to court, as the director of the company can take no responsibility and just close down the company.

I've watched the Bailiff shows, and they say to always name the director on the court forms as otherwise if they close the company you have no recourse at all.

Please could a moderator remove this thread.

I would like to start a new topic in a different area from day dot.

This thread has been made too complicated with the issue with the car itself, and the title change doesn't reflect the subject anymore either.

Many thanks

[mantis shrimp]

Why? 

 

People have spent time on this, and you have benefitted from their comments, which may also help others. 

[DH1991]

Because I want to start the thread again.

 

I don't want people to get the wrong idea. A lot of the focus on this thread has been focussed on the issue with the car itself.

 

Even the title has been changed incorrectly - BM Motors hasn't dissolved, BM Car Sales Saltash LTD is the dissolved company, and they are not even the company I paid a majority of the money too.

 

As this is an open forum and I am discussing court action, I want to re-write the entire situation from start to finish as this is a open forum the dealership itself may find it and bring it up in court. As the subject here is messy, can you imagine trying to explain to a judge? It makes me look like even I don't have a clue what is going on.

 

Please don't think that I am not grateful to everyone who has shared their knowledge and experience. All I want it is to start it again properly.

[dx100uk]

Should of read our rules then..

nope we dont delete threads.

and it seriously does not matter if they find you, use the thread in court, etc etc...so what!!

You need to realise this is not our 1st case like this..probably the 100th, though i think its the first time we've actually had some buy a faulty car, try reclaim, pay to fix it, try reclaim, couldn't so then sell the car and are now going after the original trader for their lost money etc..

Could of been a lot simpler if you come here on day one, not done your own thing, then ask use to help bail you out, when you cant seem to understand all the background info is important,

now just please simply answer my question of who do i sue you Muppets

 

Dx

[DH1991]

No,  didn't come here first. I went through the dealer, then to the official mediation service to exhaust all professional avenues.

And I more than understand background info is important - why do you think I am requesting to remove this so I can re-write it?

I think it does matter if they find the thread, especially when the title of my thread has been changed to something that is both incorrect and inflammatory - If I am asked about that in court, how do I explain that I am projecting information that isn't true.... A username on an internet forum changed it?

You're even incorrect in your description of what happened after reading the thread I've posted. You have stated that I have tried to claim, couldn't, then sold the car and am claiming for my lost money.

That's not even the case - I'm not going after the trader for all my lost money. I am asking the trader to reimburse me to put the car into the condition the sales contract stated it would be in.

That is why I need to re-write the thread - how can it help anyone when it is not clear?

As I said, I want to re-write the lot fresh so everyone can understand the timeline of events with dates/times/responses etc.

It would be SO much easier if I could be allowed this, as I have been questioned about what I have said so it doesn't run in order and is clearly difficult to follow.

I did not think the timeline of events prior to issuing the court claim was that important as I have already exhausted all available avenues.

For some reason, it comes across like you think I am telling you all to shove off, which is not the case at all.

By the story not running in order, it is a waste of everybody's time having to ask question after question to get the points that you need. A

nd I am fully aware that this isn't just potentially helpful to me, it is potentially helpful to others too.

That is why I want to put it right.

Looking on many other threads, this seems to happen a lot - and it always seems to end the same way, thread gets padlocked which isn't helpful to anyone.

I've had about 10 weeks of backwards and forwards with the dealer and trading standards, then the courts as well, and I just don't want false statements being posted regarding my issue with the dealer when I can just re-write it properly

[dx100uk]

just carry on here ...put it right in the story then. lots more helpful to others, shows all the pitfalls and mistakes so others don't do them or go their own way before coming here 1st good or bad... eitherway its a lesson to people and useful to everyone.

 

admin rarely lock threads, it could just be locked as the pre-set forum response time has elapsed so its marked locked.

 

keep going...