CEL /DCBL ANPR PCN CCJ as i moved!! - Butterfly Walk Car Park, Denmark Hill, London, SE5 8RW - anything i can do?

[Eagle15]

Hi there,

 

I’ve received a Parking Charge Notice through the post from Civil Enforcement.

having read the pinned post details below, it states PCNs received through the post must be received within 14 days of the incident.

 

the ‘issue date’ on my PCN is 04/01/2022, and date of incident is 12/12/2021.

please can someone explain the ‘must be received within 14 days’ logic to me, and advise on whether I can ignore this based on that?

 

thanks in advance 

 

For PCN's received through the post [ANPR camera capture] 

(must be received within 14 days from the Incident)

 

Please answer the following questions.

 

1 Date of the infringement

Give answer here
 

 

2 Date on the NTK [this must have been received within 14 days from the 'offence' date]

Give answer here
 

[scan up BOTH SIDES as ONE PDF- follow the upload guide]

please do not put JPG Picture files into your post

 

3 Date received

Give answer here
 

4 Does the NTK mention schedule 4 of The Protections of Freedoms Act 2012? [Y/N?]

Give answer here
 

5 Is there any photographic evidence of the event?

Give answer here
 

6 Have you appealed? [Y/N?] post up your appeal]

Give answer here
 

Have you had a response? [Y/N?] post it up

Give answer here
 

7 Who is the parking company?

Give answer here

 

8. Where exactly [carpark name and town]

Give answer here
 

 

[Homer67]

To obtain the vehicle keeper's details using POFA the PPC must meet certain criteria which was created by POPLA (basically the PPC's themselves), one of the criteria is the NTK must be sent to the keeper within 14 days of the event (I won't say 'offence') or they cannot use POFA to create keeper liability - so in your case they have not met the criteria to create keeper liability, so ignore everything (but file it for later reference) unless you get a letter before claim then send a snotty letter point out their error and relax never to hear from them again!

[lookinforinfo]

I think Homer67 meant to say PoFA as opposed to POPLA but it does mean that they cannot pursue you as the keeper only as the driver. Now CEL have an uphill struggle to prove you were the driver since many people have other named drivers on their insurance policy as well as everyone who has a motor policy has the right to drive your car with tour permission. And Courts do not allow the PPCs to assume that the keeper is automatically the driver.

 

So do not appeal as you may inadvertently admit that you were the driver which would mean then that they would be far more likely to take you to Court.  If they don't know who was driving they may well decide not to take you to Court as they would have little chance of winning. So our advice is to avoid contact with them unless they send you a Letter of Claim.

 

In the meantime could you please answer the questions on post 1 plus post up the PCN [both sides] to see what else they have done wrong.

[Eagle15]

Thank you @lookinforinfo and @Homer67

More detail and PDF attached. Thanks in advance for your advice on next steps.

 

1 Date of the infringement

12/12/2021
 

2 Date on the NTK [this must have been received within 14 days from the 'offence' date]

04/01/2022

 

3 Date received

11/01/2021 (due to delays in post!)
 

4 Does the NTK mention schedule 4 of The Protections of Freedoms Act 2012? [Y/N?]

N (I don't think)

 

5 Is there any photographic evidence of the event?

Yes - CCTV/ANPR
 

6 Have you appealed? [Y/N?] post up your appeal]

No - only action so far was to complain to Morrisons (whose store I was attending, they came back and said as it was private car park they can't do anything). No further action taken yet. 
 

Have you had a response? [Y/N?] post it up

N/A
 

7 Who is the parking company?

Civil Enforcement

 

8. Where exactly [carpark name and town]

Butterfly Walk Car Park, Denmark Hill, London, SE5 8RW

 

For either option, does it say which appeals body they operate under.

POPLA

 

 

It's also worth noting that I did actually pay for the parking, however just after the '10minute window' - the machines in the car park were out of use, so I tried to pay on the app whilst in store however it kept failing - but I do eventually have a receipt from 1.44pm for a full hours parking (but admittedly this is outside of the 10min window I am meant to pay in) - I have a photo of one of the signs from the car park as I took it before I went in in order to pay via the app whilst in store.

Thank you.

 

CEL PCN 040122.pdf

[dx100uk]

as this was a windscreen ticket ?

its 29- 56 before the NTK must arrive.

they are too soon!

 

dx

 

 

[Eagle15]

Hey @dx100ukit was a postal PCN not windscreen. Thanks!

[dx100uk]

but those are operator pictures 

so its a case of a vanishing PCN, one should have been placed on the windscreen.

 

the NTK is yet to arrive

that scan is of the ticket they should have placed on your windscreen, so its 29-56 await the NTK do NOTHING!

 

dx

 

[Eagle15]

@dx100uksorry for my ignorance (I'm new to all this as you can tell!) - how can you tell they are operator pictures? They look to me like stills from CCTV (as they both have time stamps on - (probably not that clear due to the quality of the scan of my letter sorry), at the entry and exit to the car park. Thanks for your help

[FTMDave]

Whether it is ANPR or a windscreen ticket, they haven't respected the timescales in either case for keeper liability.

 

Not to mention you paid.  They haven't got a chance!

 

Do you have proof that their machines were knackered?

[lookinforinfo]

Your PCN is neither fish nor fowl. It should say at the top that it is a Notice to Driver. It doesn't. As an NTD it should state that you have 28 days from the 12th December to pay. It doesn't as it says that you have 28 days from the date of issue of the PCN. So it does not meet the requirements of PoFA and so is non compliant. It will be interesting to see the date of issue of their Notice to Keeper.

 

If they are trying to say that the PCN was a Notice to Keeper then it fails there too as there is no admittance that CEL is the Creditor nor that they have the ability to transfer liability of the debt from the driver to the keeper. It's a total dogs breakfast.

 

I am surprised that they issued you a ticket since you paid albeit several minutes after their permitted time. 

 

Do absolutely nothing until a Notice to keeper arrives then please post it up here. Do not appeal or contact CEL in any way -or Morrisons for that matter. 

[Eagle15]

Hey @FTMDavethank you. Unfortunately I don't have evidence of the machines being out of use.

 

From the replies above, it sounds like I can sit tight and do nothing until I receive a 'Letter to Claim'? Is that right?

[dx100uk]

Yep and type in cel in our search of the top red banner and get upto speed 

 

Dx

[Homer67]

Removed, just seen it is an ANPR capture not an NTK as originally thought.

Edited January 13, 2022 by Homer67

[dx100uk]

Wrong thread ignore me

it is anpr

dX

[FTMDave]

If this place is local to you, is there any chance of you going back and taking photos of the signage and the machines?

 

I know it's a long shot, but a tactic we've seen with these disgusting companies is to deliberately leave broken machines broken so they have excuses to issue their PCNs, so it's not impossible that a machine broken a month ago is still broken.

 

In any case photos of what could be carp signage is always useful.

[Eagle15]

Hi all - thanks for your help previously. I’ve today received a Notice of Debt recovery regarding this parking charge, from Direct Collection Bailiffs Ltd.

 

As you all advised before, I still don’t need to do anything until if/when I receive a letter of claim, is that correct?

 

thank you

 

[honeybee13]

Yes, you only act if you get a letter before claim which should be headed as such or court papers.

 

HB

[lookinforinfo]

You will get several letters for unregulated debt collectors threatening all sorts of ever larger sums of money.  Don't worry they have been described as a rip off so take absolutely no notice of debt collectors ever. They have no power at all.

[dx100uk]

Open

 

Dx

[Eagle15]

Hi all, thanks for your help on this earlier this year. I've been receiving various debt collection letters (which as advised, I've ignored), however today received a 'Letter of claim' from DCB Legal, see attached.

Please can someone advise the best course of action here? I believe the initial PCN to be completely invalid due to the fact it was not issued within 14 days, but would be good to know what to do next. Thanks

 

2022-09-01 dcbl letter of claim.pdf

Edited September 5, 2022 by dx100uk
pdf not redacted properly again

[dx100uk]

We ideally you should have used your selfhelp hat and read a good few pcn threads here to get an idea what might happen later, instead of vanishing for five months.....

 

type in snotty letter in our enhanced foogle search box.

 

You have 30 days.

Dont rush! But post up your version here 1st.

 

Dx

[Eagle15]

Hi dx100uk, I have read quite a few threads which all seem to mention waiting until the letter of claim.. which is what I have done.

 

I've searched 'snotty letter' and can find lots of threads mentioning that one needs to be sent, for people in a similar position to me, but can't see any actual examples of what to send? Please could you point me in the right direction or send me one?

Apologies, I haven't had to deal with this before hence am coming here for advice. Thanks

[dx100uk]

Programmable Search Engine

CSE.GOOGLE.COM

 

clickme

[Eagle15]

Thanks dx.  I've read a few examples and drafted the below as a 1st attempt.. any help appreciated.

 

Not sure if I should be specifically calling out why their claim has no basis in law due to it not being received within 14 days of the alleged offence? Or can I take that part about Schedule 4 out?

 

 

Address xxx

Date xxx

 

Your ref number xxx

With regards your letter date xxx

 

Dear DCB Legal,

 

Thank you for the rather laughable Letter Before Claim I have received from you, regarding the above speculative invoice sent out without consideration to the current codes of practice laid out by UK Law and your client’s own governing bodies.

 

There is absolutely no intention of contributing to what must almost certainly be your healthy income by paying the sum mentioned to your client, Civil Enforcement Limited. It’s fairly ridiculous that you believe people will fall for your nonsense and pay you their hard earned cash.

 

I can assure you I will certainly not be doing so, as I am fully aware your claim has no basis in law whatsoever, given it fails to comply with the requirements of Schedule 4 of The Protection Of Freedoms Act 2012. You now have two options, the first of which is to drop this hopeless case, or continue to go to court where I will embarrass you and go for an unreasonable costs order under CPR 27.14(2)(g).

 

With best wishes

full name

[dx100uk]

no you dont play any cards until or unless it ever gets to court and gets to the witness statement time.

 

dx