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54 minutes ago, simeon1964 said:

Possible to ask court for Extension of time the claimant solicitor not responding to it. He was asking why I didn't reply his previous mail.

CAg Order TenJan.pdf 289.94 kB · 0 downloads

 

I thought you said that the order asked for you to submit a re-drafted defence and counterclaim?  Isn't that order just asking you to re-draft your counterclaim only, and for the claimant to draft a defence to your counterclaim?

 

Is the order only asking for a re-drafted counterclaim from you?

 

(I'm going out now for the rest of the afternoon... )

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Very quickly as I'm at work.

 

1.  I've read through about 75% of the massive work that Manxman in Exile has put in and I agree with it all, it makes the defence much clearer.

2.  I had intended to do some work myself last night in particular to separate refernces to Project 1 and Project 2, but ...

3.  ... unless simeon1964 explains, with copies of the correspondence, how the relationship with the builder broke down, then IMO we are at an impasse.  The defence does not defend the substance of the builder's claim.

4.  I have no idea if it's possible to get more time from the court, but I'll flag this up to the Site Team.

5.  From a quick read it seems that the order asks to redraft only the counterclaim and presumably the builder lost his claim for the £2866.

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Yes its possible to request an extension but it will cost an application and fee...and in reality of this matter and the length of time its being going on it shouldn't really be required...if your not ready by now you should never have counterclaimed in the first place.

 

As to the order it is now clear...we are only dealing with your counter claim (Part 20 Claimant)..the claimants claim was struck out...that's gone.

 

 

 

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1 hour ago, Manxman in exile said:

I thought you said that the order asked for you to submit a re-drafted defence and counterclaim?  Isn't that order just asking you to re-draft your counterclaim only, and for the claimant to draft a defence to your counterclaim?

 

Is the order only asking for a re-drafted counterclaim from you?

 

I am sorry to say that I didn't remember everything at the hearing . It was too much for me. First it was announced that it will be criminal offence to record and when  the Judge started to give the orders i didn't remember to write things down. I have read my old defence, needs tidy up.   I think we should go by the orders say. I Wonder if I can amend the defence or ask the court in an application? 

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Please understand what Andy is saying.  There were two parts to your court battle.

 

(1)  The builder's claim for £2866.

 

(2)  Your counterclaim for £16,500.

 

You have won regarding (1).  The judge didn't reinstate the claim.  No defence is needed.  Great result for you.  Well done.

 

It is (2) where the judge has ordered a rematch.  So please redraft What Manxman in Exile has prepared in post 48 into a counterclaim.  That is what you now need to do.

Edited by FTMDave
Typo

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1 hour ago, FTMDave said:

You have won regarding (1).  The judge didn't reinstate the claim.  No defence is needed.  Great result for you.  Well done.

Thank you didn't understand all that before. I had to order for this order today by phone to come through my email. cost me tenner and a bit

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I really don't want to make this any more complicated than it is already, but can I ask a really stupid question?

 

3 hours ago, Andyorch said:

... As to the order it is now clear...we are only dealing with your counter claim (Part 20 Claimant)..the claimants claim was struck out...that's gone.

.

 

1 hour ago, FTMDave said:

Please understand what Andy is saying.  There were two parts to your court battle.

 

(1)  The builder's claim for £2866.

 

(2)  Your counterclaim for £16,500.

 

You have won regarding (1).  The judge didn't reinstate the claim.  No defence is needed.  Great result for you.  Well done.

 

It is (2) where the judge has ordered a rematch.  So please redraft What Manxman in Exile has prepared in post 48 into a counterclaim.  That is what you now need to do.

 

Is it absolutely 100% clear that the judge has chucked out the builder's claim for £2866 and that no more work is required on the defence to that?  I'd just like to be certain that it's not the case that the original claim is still extant and is to be heard by the court, but that neither the claimant nor the defendant are permitted to change what they've already submitted to the court in respect of that original claim. (Does that make sense?  It's just that it's not as clear to me as it obviously is to Andyorch and FTMDave that the original claim from the builder is now dead.  But no doubt that is due to my lack of understanding!)

 

@simeon1964 - if Andyorch's interpretation of that order is correct (and his interpretation will always be better than mine!) then all you really need to concentrate on is justifying your counterclaim for £16000.

 

To do that you will need to demonstrate to the court several things: (1) that work you have already paid the claimant for was never completed by the claimant, and the value of that uncompleted work; (2) that damage you are claiming for actually exists; (3) that that damage was caused by the builder;  (4) that the builder caused that damage in such a way that he is legally liable to put it right (eg he carried the work out negligently); and (5) the cost of putting that damage right.

 

Can you do all that?

 

(If anybody else thinks I've got that wrong or that I'm telling simeon the wrong things to concentrate on - shout out and tell him!!!)

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If you refer to the order...nowhere is there any reference to original claim. A claim was submitted and a defence was submitted along with a part 20 counter claim. Simeon1964 will have to refresh us what was the outcome at that stage and was the original claim stayed... struck out or withdrawn or discontinued whatever......there is no reference to original claim in this or the original topic. Only that a counter a claim was submitted and the claimant failed to respond to the counter claim hence the Judgment.

 

The order refers at point 1.

The claimant is given relief from sanctions of the order of DJ Moss of 19th July 2021 (what the sanctions were I surmise the judgment of the Part 20 counter claim and failing to submit a defence) because the judgment of that same date is then set a side at point 2.

 

 

.

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On 17/01/2022 at 12:38, FTMDave said:

t's still unclear to me how the relationship between you and the builder broke down.

 

21 September, you sent the snagging list.

There was no money issues between us as I always gave money when he asked and he did ask in accordance with the contract agreement, when he went out of contract agreement was when he was begging to want to pay staff on Project2, I was not happy but had sympathy. I was not happy that he slapped the cheques in my face but  i didn't get upset because I wanted him to finish his work. Relationship never broke down as such, he wanted more money than I gave him because he never complete the work and trying to want payment,  but he didn't know how to go about it, and this frustrate him i believe.  I would say i noticed his discomfort with me around the 18/09/2020.

 

I am looking for Quantity surveyor to assess the cost of restoration of the uncompleted work. Dont know how soon i can get this done but I am racing.

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So what happened to their claim ...as per my last post?

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5 hours ago, FTMDave said:

unless simeon1964 explains, with copies of the correspondence, how the relationship with the builder broke down, then IMO we are at an impasse.  The defence does not defend the substance of the builder's claim.

These are all copies of correspondence to the claimant

Letters sent aut 2020Cag.pdf

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Are my posts invisible ?  :???:

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27 minutes ago, Andyorch said:

So what happened to their claim ...as per my last post?

Don't know the answer to this one,  Andyorch. cant remember. Claimant's  solicitor was not helping either when I asked last week. 

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1 hour ago, Andyorch said:

So what happened to their claim ...as per my last post?

 

As he appears not to be able to remember, should he ring the court ASAP tomorrow morning and ask?  I fear it may be a waste of time but what else can he do?

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May be worthwhile given that Solicitors were dealing with the initial claim /defence...although I'm sure it must be one of the above reasons I have referred to already as the counter claim couldn't proceed on its own alone.

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So apart from drafting a counterclaim that explains why he's suing his builder for £16000, what else do you think @simeon1964 should be doing?

 

I freely admit I'm well out of my depth here and I don't want to inadvertantly guide simeon off in the wrong direction.  And I think FTMDave probably feels the same way.

 

I'm a bit concerned that it will turn out that there has never been any "real" evidence to support the value of the counterclaim and that at the time it just seemed like a "good idea" to both simeon and the legal friend who helped him draft the original defence and counterclaim.

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On 13/01/2022 at 12:53, Andyorch said:

You will have to add a little more detail/breakdown to the counter claim to quantify loss...don't forget to request interest also section 69 @ 8% 

 

 

As above....the court now require a full particularised counter claim (in a statement form) along with evidence (exhibits) and the claimant part 20 Defendant will have to respond with a fully particularised defence....by the dates stated in the order.

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And presumably that fully particularised counterclaim will need to give a breakdown of the amount (£16k) claimed, or can that wait until later?

 

(I'm asking because I don't know and I'm pretty sure simeon doesn't know either... )

 

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A breakdown should be given within the particularised claim to quantify the losses claimed along with whether in negligence of breach of contract......breach of duty causation and loss as the Defendant Part 20 Claimant must be in a position to be able to plead with fact given that counterclaim has already been submitted earlier albeit with no great detail or support but now the court wish to test the counter claim.

 

Its no use now rushing around to try and get expert testimonial and what it will cost to correct....that should have all been finalised at the time the counter claim was initially filed....after all the OP was prepared to plead this last year at the time of the claimants claim and all though we are not aware of what happened to the claimants claim....if it had proceeded to a hearing he would have had to plead the counter claim with supporting evidence.

 

The fact is that the OP got judgment on a technicality ...the claimant did not file a defence so the counter claim was never challenged..

 

Point 5 of the court Order confirms that Directions Questionnaires must be submitted by 4.00pm 28th Feb and he can request permission for expert testimony report at this stage so the claim will then move to allocation  which will then allow further directions with regards to submitting witness statement and evidence at a date to be confirmed.

 

Hope that clarifies

 

Andy

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15 minutes ago, Andyorch said:

we are not aware of what happened to the claimants claim

We are aware - well, sort of.

 

The claimant didn't bother to abide by court orders, multiple times.

 

Eventually there was a default judgement both ways - the claimant's case struck out, the counter claim allowed.

 

The builder then applied for set aside for (1) his case to be reinstated and (2) the counter claim to be set aside, but only (2) was granted.

 

I agree with everything you have posted that evidence for the counter claim should have been there when it was filed and in any case the OP has had nigh on a year to get such evidence together.

 

So now up to the OP to prepare the best itemised counter claim they can by the court's deadline.

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Thanks FMT...glad someone knows what happened to the initial claim.....given the OP has no idea  :roll: 

 

 

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Thanks Andy

 

Whether that makes things clearer for simeon or not, I don't know...

 

Yes - simeon should have ensured long before arriving at this point that he had an accurate breakdown of the uncompleted work, the damage caused by the builder and what it will cost to put that damage right.  Why he didn't have that before he submitted the counterclaim is unclear.  But that's where he appears still to be even now.

 

The only possible explanation as I see it (and I have no idea if this is true or not) is that simeon's solicitor seemed to advise him not to bother to get a surveyor's report before the court hearing. 

On 12/01/2022 at 15:58, simeon1964 said:

I remember the former [my solicitor] saying that i should wait till we go to court before I get a surveyor to give assessment of the damage and that the judge might say both parties would pay for the cost, But am not very clear on this.  

 

I'm also wondering whether because of the excessive delay in the solicitor enforcing the original default judgment and simeon's subsequent dismissal of the solicitor, that the need to back up the counterclaim was overlooked.

 

Of course, that's all pure speculation on my part, and I have no idea whether it might help simeon buy more time or not?

 

[Edit:  I was replying to Andy's #71 and I see I've cross-posted.  I think I agree with FTMDave that simeon can only do the best he can and hope...]

Edited by Manxman in exile
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Well he has already stated a ball park figure so has some idea...as said this statement does not need to include expert proof...estimates will suffice...but more importantly the legal basis of the counterclaim clarified.

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