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When does a SIP become a SAP?


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Another year and another attempt to have my 'service invaliding pension' (SIP) changed to a 'service attributable pension' (SAP).

 

A brief time line of events.

 

1989 Joined Army

2005 Attempted suicide on return from OP Telic 6. Various musculoskeletal injuries and a traumatic brain injury.

2007 MD'd with a SIP

2018 Diagnosed with CPTSD

2019 Awarded token WP gratuity payment circa 6k

 

2020 requested Vets agency to look at changing SIP to SAP, no response.

2021 as above.

2022 this is the year I want to get an answer

 

Does anyone have any thoughts or suggestions as to how and whose cage I need to be rattling please?

 

Who ever heard of someone getting a job at the Jobcentre? The unemployed are sent there as penance for their sins, not to help them find work!

 

 

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Hi Bazooka Boo

 

You need to make a Formal Complaint to the Veterans Agency that they have not responded to your request nor pointed you in the correct direction as to who deals with these matters.

 

Now as this is an Army Pension (still complain as above to Veterans Agency) it is out with the Veterans Agency as this is dealt with via the Forces Pensions Provider which you should get the quarterly updated mag from them due to your SIP (I get the SAP) and I can understand from your short brief why you want to try to get it changed from SIP to SAP.

 

My advice to do this is going to be difficult so I would have a wee chat with the Veterans Gateway as they can point and get different resources to contact you to assist with doing this from RBL to different Military Charities (some may even be in your area) to assist you with this.

 

WWW.VETERANSGATEWAY.ORG.UK

The Veterans' Gateway team is the first point of contact for the welfare needs of veterans and their families.

  

EQUINITI.COM

How can we help today?

 

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  • 4 weeks later...

Little update, I lodged a complaint with Vets UK copying in my local MP, lo and behold 48 hrs later Vets UK rang full of apologies.

 

I explained the situation, and in the space of ten minutes she gave me an answer, Glasgow.....

 

Vets UK wouldn't be able to alter the SIP to a SAP, however, she did say that it should have been done within six months of being awarded the WP.

 

So I have got onto Glasgow (email) and am waiting for their response, calling them is a non starter....unless I have a couple of hours to kill.

Who ever heard of someone getting a job at the Jobcentre? The unemployed are sent there as penance for their sins, not to help them find work!

 

 

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Hi

 

Thanks for the update

 

As I suspected Kentigern House in Glasgow.

 

Pension Address to contact if not already given:

 

Quote

Armed forces pensions enquiries

 

Joint Personnel Administration Centre (JPAC)
Mail Point 480
Kentigern House
65 Brown Street
Glasgow
G2 8EX

 

Phone: 0800 085 3600

 

Phone (from overseas): 0044 141 224 3600

 

Phone (military): 94560 3600

 

Email [email protected]

 

Above from this Link: 

WWW.GOV.UK

Information related to the Armed Forces Pension Schemes.

 

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  • 2 months later...

JPA got back to me today with an answer.

 

They say that because my principal invaliding condition on my final med board is different to that on my War Pension that they are unable to change the SIP to a SAP.

 

Not what I was hoping for, but at least I have an answer!

I shall either have to appeal the original WP  award, although it would be out of time, or start a new claim for the principal invaliding condition...??

 

Going to mull it over for a few days, do some research and seek advice from others in the know.

Who ever heard of someone getting a job at the Jobcentre? The unemployed are sent there as penance for their sins, not to help them find work!

 

 

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Hi Bazooka Boo

 

Thanks for the update it is appreciated.

 

I know this has been going on for well some years and that is the last thing you wanted to hear.

 

IMO I think if you haven't done so is to contact the Royal British Legion to give them your version from start to finish on this to see what they say that is if you haven't already done so.

 

The question I have forgot to ask when you were MD and they made the decision on your entitlement were you actually made aware at the time of any 'Time Limit' to appeal their decision and the in fact could you understand at that time their was this 'Time Limit' bear in mind your condition at that time?

 

 

 

 

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TBH Stu my mental capacity at that time was bad due to the brain injury, I had a social worker from Headley court with me when the med board sat to explain things that I couldn't understand.

 

Time limits for appeal, if they were mentioned which I'm sure they were, didn't register I was only six months out of a coma, so I'm certain I have mitigating circumstances in order to bring about an appeal out of time, I'm just about to give Vets UK a call and see what they advise, but yes, the RBL will be my go to I think.

 

They have a Pop In shop where I can drop in for advice in Newcastle, so I can always drop in and speak to someone face to face.

 

Thank you for your help Stu!

Who ever heard of someone getting a job at the Jobcentre? The unemployed are sent there as penance for their sins, not to help them find work!

 

 

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Hi Bazooka Boo

 

I think you fight on this is to point out you were not in a fit state mentally nor medically at that time to understand the 6 month rule to appeal due to the serious nature of your injury and since trying to get this changed from SIP to SAP keep having that rule thrown at you when you were in no fit state at that time to understand this.

 

I can appreciate where you are coming from and when you are out the supposed help that is meant to be their is really seems more a paper exercise to make the Government look good when in fact its a load of rubbish and don't work.

 

Make sure and you probably have already but get copies of the Regs on SIP & SAP at the time of your MD (not the present ones) as that is what you also use to challenge them not their present Regs.

 

They more than likely just don't want to change the SIP to SAP as they may have to back date it and also what it opens up to yourself.

 

You may also have already done this but have you via your GP requested a copy of your Military Medical Records from the MOD (note the MOD will only give these to a GP and not yourself)? Have a wee look at this link:

 

WWW.NHS.UK

Find information about leaving the armed forces, including actions to take and services who can support you in your transition period.

 

 

 

 

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Thank you Stu, all good points taken on board!

 

Just off the phone to Vets UK and they have emailed me a ''Further condition'' form to fill in and send off.

 

As I said to them, I'm not trying to apportion blame, I simply want my SIP changed to a SAP and acknowledgement that my head injury which is what I was MD'd for was due to PTSD which I get a WP for, I simply want them to agree that the undiagnosed PTSD was the cause of my head injury.

 

To be honest it isn't going to make a massive difference in my pocket anyway as I only pay around £20 a month tax on my SIP, but if it were tax free it would take me out of the tax threshold all together.

 

I will have a look at my docs regarding my MD and see what QR's they discharged me under, plus I do have a copy of my med docs which I requested from Glasgow some years back, amazing how inaccurate they are!!

 

So the answer to my own question, ''When does a SIP become a SAP'' is, when the principal invaliding condition matches the condition on your War Pension.

Who ever heard of someone getting a job at the Jobcentre? The unemployed are sent there as penance for their sins, not to help them find work!

 

 

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Hi Bazooka Boo

 

When it comes to specifically SAP which is Attributable is comes down to Burden of Proof and basically proving that the MOD is Attributable for your Injury that you were MD for and proving this to any Decision Maker as that Attributable part means the MOD has admitted liability for your Injury.

 

I have both the War Disablement Pension with Mobility Supplement and SAP was MD in 2002 after 18 yrs Service.

 

It will be a challenge to get them to see sense in this and that you capacity at that specific time you were neither in a fit state to understand this supposed 6 month to appeal rule and adjusting to civilian life. The MOD still to this day do not understand just how hard it is for those that have served to suddenly lose their career after X years service then to just get on with it in civilian life.

 

My problem was the largest local authority in Scotland for HB/CTB more CTB classing my Army Pension (non taxable) at the time as an Occupational Pension which it is not.

 

Long story short fought them for over 3 years with all my proof, they tried everything to get me to go away, knocked on all doors for help including the War Pension Agency at the time to be told by all that I am wrong the Council are correct.

 

Outcome after 3 years of hell fighting it on my own was I had a meeting in the City Chambers and it all back fired on the Council and I Won my fight, all back dated and the best part the Council had to check every single veteran records for same Army Pension and give then their money back and give them that entitlement that they should have had in the first place.

 

The below PDF is what I used against them and a few other documents but that PDF was the clincher: (may give you some ideas)

 

cis27698.pdf

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Seems we've both had the same issues regarding local authorities.

 

When I was living down in Portsmouth, a chance encounter with a case worker from SSAFA in the street informed me that I should be classed as SMI due to the CPTSD, I applied for SMI with my DR who agreed, after a little pointing in the right direction and further information, I was classed as SMI since the date of my RTA and had 10 years of council tax refunded!

 

Then with the whole debacle of migrating from Incapacity Benefit to ESA, that took another three years of tribunals and pointing out the errors of the DWP before I was successfully placed in the SG of ESA, and I was left alone.

 

I have absolutely no qualms of fighting them (MOD) on this front either, just looking at my med docs, it is clear I wasn't very well long before my suicide attempt.

 

Having served for 18 years and MD'd in '07 with the support network pulled from underneath you, as they wash their hands of you, it's little wonder Veterans feel short changed and used.

 

Surely it shouldn't be this much of a struggle, we're not asking for the Queens silver, just acknowledgement that whilst we were prepared to pay the ultimate sacrifice for Queen and Country, some of us got broken along the way and that sacrifice needs to be reciprocated.

Who ever heard of someone getting a job at the Jobcentre? The unemployed are sent there as penance for their sins, not to help them find work!

 

 

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Oh don't mention Portsmouth to me bring back bad memories of what that dam Royal Haslar Hospital in Gosport done to me if it wasn't for that place I would be fighting fit and not have got MD

 

Had serious back injury got casevac to Cyprus then onto Germany and in German Hospital for almost 1 year of trying different treatments then decision need to operate on back but tight MOD cost to much casevac back to UK Royal Haslar Hospital in Gosport and that's were it all went wrong for me and why I got MD.

 

As it was that place that left me as I am today as they completely messed up my back operation cutting into my spinal cord / giving me 2 strains of meningitis entered via operation site leaking spinal fluid/ bone fragments left in back / placed on end of life care with parents flown down .

 

Month after I woke up from above sent to Headley Court and was there for over 6 months and I can't fault the treatment I had there as it was them that made me realise (as I was determined to get fit and back to my regiment) that it wasn't happening. OK I could hardly walk without aids and in constant pain, blackouts due to pain etc. 

 

 

Any way back to you I know you say you have a copy of your medical records now my but do those records include the records from your injury right through and include Headley Court? the reason I ask this as you may have an edited or only what they thought at that time they could give you. (remember this is the MOD they don't want you to get something that you can come back and sue them with).

 

IMO I would still go via your GP and get them to request your full Medical Records from the MOD using that link in post#8.  So you do that and wait for the GP to get these and you ask your GP to view your Medical Records (remember you are allowed to do that now but must ask the GP) that way you can see if the medical records you have are different to what the GP has been given by the MOD. I as you had a copy of my Medical Records but when I done the above what the GP got to what I had there was a difference

 

Now you probably have already done this but make sure that your GP has it noted on your Medical Records that you are a Veteran as they need to be aware of the Priority of Treatment for a Subject Access Veterans for your Medical Conditions.

 

I would also suggest if you haven't already done so sending the MOD a Subject Access Request for your Service Records:

 

WWW.GOV.UK

If you are, or have been, a member of the armed forces you can request a copy of your service records.

 

 

On a different note the fight I am taking on at present is why Veterans who have been MD and it is Attributable to Service are having to pay for a Blue Badge they are entitled to due to their Disability.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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Good point, I will get onto  my GP surgery and request they seek my med docs, funny because there is nothing in the ones I have regarding my 6 month stay on the Peter Long unit at Headley, what an absolutely superb place, I can't sing it's praises high enough, everyone you meet there is an expert in their chosen field, and the nurses are pleasing to the eye!

 

Before I moved up from Pompey, every Wednesday I would go to 'Shore Leave Haslar' a garden for veterans wishing to access therapy through horticulture, they've pulled most of hospital down now, not the old buildings mind they're listed, it was fantastic a great huge garden at the back of the grounds down by the commanders old quarters, very very good for the mind and soul.

Who ever heard of someone getting a job at the Jobcentre? The unemployed are sent there as penance for their sins, not to help them find work!

 

 

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Hi Bazooka Boo

 

That the point I was exactly the same the medical record I had did not have the info from Royal Haslar Hospital not Headley Court so I done as I suggested then asked my GP to with request my MOD Medical Records, once they got them I made an appointment with my GP to view my Medical Records and it was amazing the difference to what I hat to what the GP had got from the MOD including my stays at Royal Hospital Haslar and Headley Court.

 

With the above I ask my GP for copies of certain parts of those records and they were happy to do so.

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GP has requested my Med docs from the email address and has confirmed that my records show that I am a veteran.

 

Currently going through the info I have and filling in a new claim for the principal invaliding condition that I was MD'd for.

 

It's a 50/50 I guess, but I'm like a dog with a bone and more than happy to fight this for years, they taught us some unique skills in those 18 years service, never give up is one of them!

Who ever heard of someone getting a job at the Jobcentre? The unemployed are sent there as penance for their sins, not to help them find work!

 

 

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  • 2 weeks later...

Hi Bazooka Boo

 

Just thought I would pop in to see how things are going with this?

 

Now when your GP gets your actual records back from the MOD depending on how your GP Surgery operates you may have to  put the request in writing asking to see your Medical Records (check their website) specifically the newly received Medical Records from the MOD. (due to DPA/GDPR they will more than likely ask for the request in writing).

 

If they accept this request and you get to view your records don't be afraid to ask them if you can have copies of certain parts of those records (they will either say NO or YES if they say NO ask them for a specific reason as these are not NHS Records but MOD Health Records)

 

 

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Hi Stu, yes they got back to me to query a name I have used on the request form, it was the name I had during my service, which was changed on discharge which the MOD are aware of, my GP wasn't, and assumed I had made a mistake on the form.....which is unlikely as it's both forename and surname that has been changed.

 

I have asked that they inform me when they receive the documents so I am able to make an appointment to see the Dr and view them.

 

I will confirm if they need this request in writing,  tomorrow.

 

Thanks again!

Who ever heard of someone getting a job at the Jobcentre? The unemployed are sent there as penance for their sins, not to help them find work!

 

 

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  • 9 months later...

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Put in a 'further claim' for ''Head Injury'', as this is what I was MD'd for.

 

As expected, they refused my further claim.

 

In their own words; ''There is no evidence to confirm this injury, illness or condition was caused or made worse by your service''.

 

The decision is made by a medical advisor, and is clearly a standard template response.

 

So I have 12 months in which to send them my appeal, it will be done sooner than that I should hope!

 

I will point out the evidence to them again in my appeal, but am pretty confident this will go all the way to tribunal.

Who ever heard of someone getting a job at the Jobcentre? The unemployed are sent there as penance for their sins, not to help them find work!

 

 

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Appeal sent in the post today, simply stated that I do not believe that evidence provided surrounding the suicide attempt, mental health and medical history have been explored or taken into account, and is a direct result of service.

 

Start the ball rolling.:playball:

Who ever heard of someone getting a job at the Jobcentre? The unemployed are sent there as penance for their sins, not to help them find work!

 

 

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  • 2 months later...

Email landed today that to say that they (HMCTS) have received my papers from Vets UK regarding my appeal, and they will aim to list it for a hearing within the next 4 months...

Slightly panicked by this, as I have no clue where to start?

I'm unsure of what documents they have, and whether I need to send them everything I have, which has already been provided in the build up to this tribunal .

Ultimately though, I need to get myself representation and have someone listen to my argument against their decision not to award me a SAP.

Who ever heard of someone getting a job at the Jobcentre? The unemployed are sent there as penance for their sins, not to help them find work!

 

 

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Hi Bazooka Boo

Thanks for the update and as for representation try speaking to the RBL or any local Veterans Groups.

I know you probably have but have you sent the MOD a SAR if not I would and mark it URGENT as required for a Tribunal.

WWW.GOV.UK

Information and forms to request personal data held by the MOD for current or former civilian staff or members of the armed forces.

 

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Cheers Stu.

 

Just spoke with The RBL, they are going to represent me, just filling in the listing questionnaire, have ticked hearing via video link, but am second guessing myself whether that is a good choice??

 

Already have all my docs and paperwork, it just needs a day or two to go through their response pack and ensure they have looked at the documents I used for the initial appeal..  

Who ever heard of someone getting a job at the Jobcentre? The unemployed are sent there as penance for their sins, not to help them find work!

 

 

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Hi Bazooka Boo

One thing I did well it was the War Pension Agency at the time when they refused my Hearing Claim and I challenged them.

1. The Audiologist in London that carried out the Test wrote to the WPA and challenged them on who made the decision and there Medical Qualifications.

2. I also wrote and challenged on what Medical Qualification the individual hade that made the decision to refuse my claim.

They ended up playing ping pong letters until the London Audiologist basically threatened them if they were challenging his medical experience and qualifications and they basically backed down.

 

In your case I would ask for the Medical Qualification of those Individuals that mad the decision to refuse your claim as IMO this is very relevant because if they have NO Medical Qualification then what right do they have to refuse such a claim.

 

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Yeah, spoke with an RBL rep earlier, he talked me through the whole procedure and told me that doing the tribunal over the internet is the better option and doesn't put you at a disadvantage.

 

He also questioned whether I had thought about putting in a further claim for my PTSD as when I was awarded it they gave me the bog standard 6-14% rate, which they always do apparently because they know people won't appeal it.

 

So food for thought as he says I should seriously consider putting in a  'deterioration' claim.

 

Still, he's put my mind at rest that everything will be taken care of and seems quite positive about it all.

Who ever heard of someone getting a job at the Jobcentre? The unemployed are sent there as penance for their sins, not to help them find work!

 

 

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