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NHS Role - No COVID-19 vaccination - No Job


hayho1
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I wanted to share my story and hopefully get any support and guidance regarding my next steps. 

 

I work in the NHS as a Clinical Psychologist. I received a letter from my employer (Dated 07/12/21) re: my COVID-19 Vaccine status. The letter indicated that their records showed that I was not currently vaccinated and stipulated that:

 

on 09/11/21 the Department of Health and Social Care formally announced that individuals undertaking CQC regulated activities in England must be fully vaccinated against COVID-19 no later than 1 April 2022 to protect patients etc…. This means that unvaccinated individuals will need to have had their first dose by 3rd February 2022, in order to have received their second dose by the 1 April 2022 deadline. Being fully vaccinated will be a condition of employment for these groups of staff…. If you are unvaccinated, please indicate your reasons for this within your email above. This will help us to identify where we will need to provide additional focused support and information to colleagues

 

I spoke with my Service Lead (21/12/21) following their supervision around this topic (20/12/21). My employer was aware of my choice not to have the vaccine due to concerns around my fertility (2 miscarriages, most recent 04/21, under Gynecologic Team for investigation).  I was informed that the view from my service was that if I had not had my first vaccination by the second week of January 2022 that I would be in breach of my contact. If I’ve had both doses by April 2022 then I will be within my contract and able to carry on working; if I have not I would be in breach of my contract and unable to work in another NHS setting. Should I continue to choose not to be vaccinated, the service lead advised that the worst-case scenario would be I would we required to work out my notice. However, with an exemption then I would be redeployed. I was offered but declined the opportunity to meet with the COVID counsellor to talk through my rationale against being vaccinated. I was advised more guidance may be coming out in January 2022 which may offer more hope.

 

I subsequently contacted my service lead to explore where I could obtain a copy of the new contract which stipulates re: the vaccine being a new condition of my employment. I was informed ‘your original contract should be with HR. Whereas I don’t think they are up to the stage of issuing new contracts. I imagine this will be next year when the new guidance comes out’. I was informed that the guidance had came from the government directly and will be going into law by April 2022; all managers were told that the service will be adhering to the standard guidance; more detail will be in the guidance document that comes out in January 2022.

 

Many thanks for your support

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 Government is in the process of passing law in Parliament, so your NHS contract of employment will state something along the lines of,  to retain your employment status, you must ensure you comply with all legal and regulatory standards.

 

The regulations were laid in Parliament on 9 November 2021 and subject to parliamentary
passage will come into force on the 1 April 2022. If the regulations are approved,
unvaccinated individuals will need to have had their first dose of an approved COVID-19
vaccine by 3 February 2022 (this date is subject to change), in order to have received their
second dose by the 31 March 2022 deadline.

 

So your existing contract of employment would not need to be amended and if you did not qualify for a Covid vaccination exemption, your employment would be ended after giving you notice.

 

https://www.england.nhs.uk/coronavirus/wp-content/uploads/sites/52/2021/12/C1470-vcod-for-healthcare-workers-planning-and-preparation-guidance.pdf

 

Clinical exemptions
Some individuals may have grounds not to have the vaccine for clinical reasons. Anyone who is unable to get vaccinated for clinical reasons will have to use the NHS COVID Pass to show their exemption status.7
The domestic NHS COVID Pass will look and work in the same way for people with clinical exemptions as it will for people who are fully vaccinated. The pass will not show that a worker has a clinical exemption. Workers will receive a confirmation letter which they should 
keep for their records and use to prove that their unable to get vaccinated. The letter will explain that the individual is medically unable to get vaccinated, the pass does not


Partnership working within and across primary care networks and ICSs are also encouraged to share resources and expert knowledge. We will engage further with primary care representatives to consider any specific guidance needs for this sector.
 

How can workers evidence that they are fully vaccinated?
Recognised evidence of COVID-19 vaccination
The NHS COVID pass, or equivalent from NHS Scotland, NHS Wales or the Department of Health in Northern Ireland; or
The EU Digital COVID Certificate; or
The Centers for Disease Control and Prevention vaccination card; or
A certificate in English, French or Spanish issued by the competent health authority which contains:
a) the individuals full name
b) the individuals date of birth
c) the name and manufacturer of the vaccine that the individual received
d) the date that the individual received each dose of the vaccine
e) details of either the identity of the issuer of the certificate or the country of vaccination, or both.
NHS appointment cards cannot be used as proof of vaccination status.
Vaccinated abroad
Individuals who are vaccinated abroad will be required to provide evidence of their vaccination status and, where necessary, have a top-up dose with a UK authorised vaccine consistent with the UK Health Security Agency (UKHSA) guidance on vaccines. To avoid
doubt, mixed doses (that is, where different vaccines have been administered to complete the dose schedule) will be accepted for the purposes of the vaccination requirements.

 

Pregnancy and Fertility
 

The Joint Committee on Vaccination and Immunisation (JCVI) has advised that pregnant women should be offered COVID-19 vaccines and that pregnant women should discuss the
risks and benefits of vaccination with their healthcare professional, including the latest evidence on safety and which vaccines they should receive8. Women trying to become pregnant do not need to avoid pregnancy after vaccination and there is no evidence to
suggest that COVID-19 vaccines will affect fertility.

 

While the Royal College of Obstetricians and Gynaecologists (RCOG), the Royal College of Midwives (RCM) and the UK Tetralogy Service recommend the COVID-19 vaccination for
pregnant and breastfeeding women, pregnant women are eligible to request short-term medical exemptions from vaccination.

 

For pregnant women, the exemption expires 16 weeks after giving birth. This will allow them to become fully vaccinated after birth. A MATB1 certificate can be used to provide evidence
of exemption status

For further guidance regarding supporting pregnant women in the workplace, please refer to Coronavirus (COVID-19): advice for pregnant employees - GOV.UK (www.gov.uk) and COVID-19 vaccines, pregnancy and breastfeeding (rcog.org.uk)

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Firstly, I am very sorry for your losses. 

 

Here is some background information.

 

  

WWW.CIPD.CO.UK

As the UK’s COVID-19 vaccination rollout continues, employers should prepare for its impact on the wider population and their workforce.

 

 

Following a consultation on mandatory jabs for frontline NHS and care workers in England it was announced that from spring 2022 it will also be mandatory for all health and social care workers, including volunteers who have face to face contact with service users, to provide evidence they have been fully vaccinated against COVID-19 in order to be deployed. This applies to NHS staff and other health and social care workers with direct, face-to-face contact with people while providing care. This includes doctors, nurses, dentists and domestic care workers, unless they are exempt. Staff such as porters or receptionists who have social contact with patients but are not directly involved in their care are also included.

 

The NHS considers there to be no evidence of risk to fertility or pregnancy from having the vaccine.

WWW.NHS.UK

Find out about the coronavirus (COVID-19) vaccination if you're pregnant, breastfeeding or might get pregnant in the future.

 

I would talk with the Covid counsellor. I would also ask to see the risk assessment for your role. For example, could it be done remotely in any way? Are you seeking a permanent exemption, or is it for a defined period of time? Be clear about what you want, and why, and for how long.

 

Sadly for you, the reality is that yes, if you are never going to be vaccinated, you may ultimately be unable to perform your work for the NHS, and subsequently be dismissed. 

 

I would speak with your union about the process and practical aspects of that. I hope your clinician has useful news for you soon.

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Never assume anyone on the internet is who they say they are. Only rely on advice from insured professionals you have paid for!

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Hi @hayho1

 

I'm a retired NHS manager who worked for 20+ years in a mental health trust (non-clinical posts).

 

While I fully appreciate your personal concerns about vaccination (and to be honest I'm not 100% convinced myself that the mandatory vaccination of clinical staff is strictly necessarily) I fear that you may be facing an uphill battle on this.

 

As others have explained, the government is passing legislation which will change your employment contract to the effect that both legally and de facto you will be putting yourself at risk of being sacked if you remain unvaccinated.  You can forget about what your contract said when you started employment.  (In fact it's very common for contracts of employment to be unilaterally changed by employers without your "consent" - unless you want to walk away from the job.

 

If I were you I would be contacting both my union and my professional body for advice and support.  (Sorry - it's so long since I retired I can't remember whether your professional body is your union or not!).

 

Also, as others have said, you should be seeking advice from your own GP and the other specialists investigating the miscarriages.

 

Is there any particular reason why you declined the opportunity to discuss your situation with your trust's COVID counsellor?  Were you advised not to?  I'm inclined to agree with Emmzzi that it would be to your benefit to talk to them.  I also agree with Emmzzi that understanding the risk assessment - if any exists - and exploring the possibility of remote working might be useful avenues to explore.

 

Good luck.  As a former NHS manager myself I feel quite uncomfortable with the introduction of "new" mandatory vaccinations, but I suspect that "greater good" arguments will prevail.

 

 

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Hayho1  to some extent I am walking on eggshells responding here since my gut instinct is surprise that you are working in the NHS seeing so many people dying from covid  and not wanting to be vaccinated. Especially as the Omicron variant appears to be much more deadly for those who are unvaccinated if what we are being told about it is true.

 

It may be that you have an underlying health problem that may be  exacerbated by being inoculated. Indeed a friend of mine has been afflicted by small cuts or lesions on her lips, tongue and elsewhere inside her mouth  which have been extremely painful and perhaps affected by the vaccinations reacting to some of the medicines she takes all the time. On the other hand the pain around her mouth has now gone and she is still alive which may not have been the case had she not taken the vaccines. 

 

On the one hand you do have the right not to be vaccinated but at the same time those around you also have the right not to be in contact with unprotected people. This is probably more important when people are visiting  hospital either as patients or visiting patients. My wife has a number of underlying health problems so much so that when she goes to hospital I am able to accompany her as her carer. She only visited hospital five times last year and stayed only twice which sounds like she had a good year compared to earlier years but she did suffer at home instead.  So you will understand that I have to be extra careful myself not to contract the virus  as I would feel so bad should I get it and pass it on to my wife. For that reason I would not want to have to deal with you were you in my local hospital. 

 

I guess that we are not going to eliminate the virus any time soon, if ever. But with so many anti vaxxers in our Country it doesn't help us as a community to minimise the spread of the virus. Sadly it appears that the death rate for anti vaxxers who contract covid is higher than those who have taken the inoculations. Which was the point of producing the vaccine in the first place-to preserve lives.  I doubt that you will be swayed from your own convictions though I would be interested to know the reaction of your fellow workers who have taken the vaccine to your stance on the matter.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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  • dx100uk changed the title to NHS Role - No COVID-19 vaccination - No Job

Some helpful posts there regarding the employment issues, and there are a number of guidelines which appear to be targeted at assisting psychologists to continue practicing with patients who are unvaccinated which may be relevant and possibly offer options, 

but perhaps there is the other issue that needs attention which has been gently touched on by others here?

 

Serious questions:

- As a clinical psychologist, How would you address similar concerns if a person was referred to you with the same?

- What was the result of raising the issue in Clinical supervision?

 

 

 

Not sure if either of the following will help? You assessment and opinion would be appreciated.

 

WWW.NCBI.NLM.NIH.GOV

Vaccine hesitancy refers to delay in acceptance or refusal of vaccination despite availability of vaccination series. The majority of...

 

https%3A%2F%2Fcpe.psychopen.eu%2Findex.php%2Fcpe%2Farticle%2Fdownload%2F7525%2F7525.pdf&usg=AOvVaw31Crp4vo3s0D8xdCiMhBck

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 "Moral emptiness and epidemiological stupidity”

"unrepentant and inveterate liar" “tinpot dictator” “mired in sleaze”

Boris Johnson Mendex est

“as he waded through the empty bottles and platters of sandwiches, he didn’t realise it was a party”

 

“The failure of the cheerleaders of Brexit to acknowledge the consequences of Brexit as due to Brexit remains remarkable.” - David Schneider

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Posted (edited)
15 hours ago, lookinforinfo said:

...

 

On the one hand you do have the right not to be vaccinated but at the same time those around you also have the right not to be in contact with unprotected people. This is probably more important when people are visiting  hospital either as patients or visiting patients. My wife has a number of underlying health problems so much so that when she goes to hospital I am able to accompany her as her carer. She only visited hospital five times last year and stayed only twice which sounds like she had a good year compared to earlier years but she did suffer at home instead.  So you will understand that I have to be extra careful myself not to contract the virus  as I would feel so bad should I get it and pass it on to my wife. For that reason I would not want to have to deal with you were you in my local hospital. 

 

...

 

@hayho1  -  while I don't necessarily agree with everything else in @lookinforinfo's post, I think they have put their finger squarely on the crux of the problem in the two sentences I have highlighted.  Patients and/or their carers - especially if they are clinically vulnerable - will be understandably reluctant to visit hospital unless they can be 100% confident that staff they will come into contact with have been vaccinated.

 

As I said in a previous post, I am not personally convinced of the necessity of having all NHS clinical staff vaccinated, but if the NHS as an organisation is fearful that people who need to be seen in hospital will not go to hospital for fear of coming into contact with unvaccinated individuals, then even I can see that vaccination should be mandatory.

 

I would repeat what Emmzzi and I posted earlier - I think you do need to discuss this with your trust's Covid counsellor and not avoid them.  And seek advice from your union and professional body.

 

It seems at the moment that your only realistic options are to seek a medical exemption and/or explore teleworking remotely.  If you are not able to do either of those, you are in a difficult position.

 

[EDIT:  Just to add, I don't under-estimate the difficulty of your situation.  I can understand your reluctance to be vaccinated and I appreciate your concerns about the vaccine, but I suspect you might be steamrollered by this as being in the interests of the greater number - which I know is not always a convincing argument.]

Edited by Manxman in exile
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18 hours ago, Manxman in exile said:

 

As I said in a previous post, I am not personally convinced of the necessity of having all NHS clinical staff vaccinated,

 

I cant think of any valid circumstance where they should not be with the possible exception of staff permanently working from home - and what happens should that circumstance quickly change for any reason?

. Even back office staff regularly come into contact with other staff, and move around the hospital, and employed staff who work from home rarely do so exclusively.

 

I am a great believer in personal choice .. alongside personal responsibility in equal measures.

... but I would no more accept that a person unvaccinated (or unmasked) through personal beliefs (whether unfounded or not) should put others at risk in a hospital (or elsewhere), than I would a personal choice to carry a firearm in a hospital.

 

 

I dont know enough about the OP's circumstances, let alone any basis the OP may believe they have for what they seem to believe, and I am not a doctor of medicine, but might be worthwhile the OP considering if there is an aspect of  'false/mistaken beliefs' at work here?

The op should be more aware of that issue than I, and although such are apparently notoriously difficult to self review I would have thought it should have been raised in clinical supervision as part of their well-being in professional practice, alongside any advice she may have been given as a patient by medical practitioners?

 

 "Moral emptiness and epidemiological stupidity”

"unrepentant and inveterate liar" “tinpot dictator” “mired in sleaze”

Boris Johnson Mendex est

“as he waded through the empty bottles and platters of sandwiches, he didn’t realise it was a party”

 

“The failure of the cheerleaders of Brexit to acknowledge the consequences of Brexit as due to Brexit remains remarkable.” - David Schneider

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I think we've been asked only to comment on the employment law aspect. I am fairly sure OP will have heard many views on vaccines by now. She has a personal set of circumstances which none of us are living through.

 

Never assume anyone on the internet is who they say they are. Only rely on advice from insured professionals you have paid for!

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Posted (edited)

The op has asked for "support and guidance regarding my next steps",

 

and the employment issues are relatively clear, seem unlikely to offer a resolution and have been detailed by those far better than me at it - including your own post detailing near future NHS requirements.

 

Whereas the other part of this might be able to present a number of other possibilities for next steps

What I have presented goes directly to (should be) available support and possible next steps

Edited by tobyjugg2

 "Moral emptiness and epidemiological stupidity”

"unrepentant and inveterate liar" “tinpot dictator” “mired in sleaze”

Boris Johnson Mendex est

“as he waded through the empty bottles and platters of sandwiches, he didn’t realise it was a party”

 

“The failure of the cheerleaders of Brexit to acknowledge the consequences of Brexit as due to Brexit remains remarkable.” - David Schneider

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Gentlemen please dont hijack this thread.

 

DX

please don't hit Quote...just type we know what we said earlier..

DCA's view debtors as suckers, marks and mugs

NO DCA has ANY legal powers whatsoever on ANY debt no matter what it's Type

and they

are NOT and can NEVER  be BAILIFFS. even if a debt has been to court..

If everyone stopped blindly paying DCA's Tomorrow, their industry would collapse overnight... 

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I think you have misunderstood what I am saying, which the op should understand better.

I'm not pressing my beliefs, just my limited understanding of the OPs situation.


It seems to me that refusing to discuss the issue with the covid councillor and/or clinical supervision leaves little options for the organisation ... or the OP.

Opening up that dialogue could well open up some options for the OP and organisation which otherwise seem to be almost totally lacking.

Not saying they would open up, just that the options seem to be very limited as it is and badly need expanding.

 

Would they use any information given in a dialogue with the councilor or clinical supervision (not supervisor) against the op? Depends what it was really,

and if help is requested by the op, that could also be used by either side in a way not clearly intended - it all relies on an open and honest approach .

But it does seem the OP is in a position which desperately needs improving.

 

 

I have little doubt that seeking help and assistance from the organisation will be far more effective than digging in, although if one of the experts here says theres a realistic chance of success in any tribunal as things stand, I'll take that as given.

Anyone?

 "Moral emptiness and epidemiological stupidity”

"unrepentant and inveterate liar" “tinpot dictator” “mired in sleaze”

Boris Johnson Mendex est

“as he waded through the empty bottles and platters of sandwiches, he didn’t realise it was a party”

 

“The failure of the cheerleaders of Brexit to acknowledge the consequences of Brexit as due to Brexit remains remarkable.” - David Schneider

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