BRM Select cars - Sold Mercedes not as advertised ***Resolved with Full refund***

[Catter]

Firstly, Hello to all fellow members, from me a new member but long time reader. nice to join the ranks.

 

On 22/11/21 i bought a Mercedes c250 from BRM specialist cars, Scunthorpe. 2014. 73700 mls. The car was advertised with a good spec. including the xenon lighting system, which was one of the specs. i required.

 

My  inspection/test drive was in daylight. A lot to take in with this car, thus i relied on the description/spec. being accurate.

 

Last week, during my first nightime drive, the lights proved to be woefully inadequate. On inspection it is now obvious that xenon lights are not fitted. Halogen bulbs are fitted. This is confirmed by an independent Mercedes specialist.

 

My telephone calls to BRM cars requesting a reject and full refund on the grounds of incorrect description, ended with a point blank refusal by the dealer.

I have now emailed my request to them and await the response.

 

I think this will be interesting .

Edited December 20, 2021 by dx100uk
formatting

[stu007]

Hi Catter

 

Welcome on joining CAG after viewing for a while.

 

Now is the Dealership actually called BRM Select Cars? is this them:

 

Used Vehicles At BRM Select Cars Ltd In Scunthorpe Lincolnshire

WWW.BRMSELECTCARS.CO.UK

---

BRM Select Cars Ltd Have A Great Selection Of Quality Used Cars In Scunthorpe Lincolnshire. If You Need High Quality Used Vehicles Or...

 

[BankFodder]

So you say it is going to be interesting. It sounds as if you have it completely under control.

Meanwhile, maybe you'd like to post up a copy of the email that you sent them.

Also maybe you can tell us a bit about the car.

How much did it cost? How old is it? How did you pay – did you pay by cash? Did you pay by bank transfer?

What is the name of the person at the dealers that you were dealing with?

[BankFodder]

I took a chance and sent a Facebook message to BRM and they messaged me back and said that they are in contact with you.

That doesn't mean that they're helping you – but please keep us updated.

 

[Catter]

Hi stu007. Yes that is the company. I got the name wrong on my post, sorry.

 

Hi BankFodder.

Thanks for your interest so far.

 

I would prefer to not put my emails up at this time. Briefly, i have outlined to them the problem i find with a mis-described car.     I have asked for a full refund and asked them to take the car back.

 

I have pointed out that, under the Consumer Rights Act(2015) i have the right to a full refund, if the goods are not as described, Within 30 days.

 

I have given them 7 days from the date of my email (20/12/21) to favourably respond. I have informed them that a failure to favourably respond will lead to legal action using the CRA.

 

Also i informed them, that to ignore the findings under the CRA will lead to a criminal conviction.

 

Today, i have sent a second confirmation email to them. Also informing them that the car is secure and in the same condition as when purchased, +500 miles.

 

The car is a Mercedes c250cdi  Premium plus. 2014. 73700 miles. Some service history. 3 owners. £13450          Good specification, apart from the lights being the wrong spec.

 

Unfortunately i paid a cash deposit and bank transfer for the balance. I now realise my error in not paying by card.

 

At this time, i have had no response from BRM cars.

 

 

BankFodder

 

I would be interested in the content of your Facebook message to BRM cars.

 

TIA

[stu007]

Hi

 

Thanks for updating us that the link I post in post#2 is correct that your car is a Mercedes C250 CDI Premium Plus, 2014, 73700 miles, 3 previous Owners, Cost £13450

 

Have you ensured to take a screenshot of the website advertisement? (if viewed online)

 

Does the Documentation that you got from the Dealership mention this xenon lighting system?

 

Have you went on the Governments website and done a wee MOT check to see the History of the car:

Check the MOT history of a vehicle - GOV.UK

WWW.GOV.UK

---

Check the MOT history of a vehicle from 2005 onwards, including if it passed or failed, its mileage and why it failed

 

 

As you have confirmed the Company I mentioned with the website link is correct then if you look closely at there website they are part of the AA 'You're in safe hands This dealer has signed our Dealer Promise'

Aa Dealer Promise At BRM Select Cars Ltd In Scunthorpe Lincolnshire

WWW.BRMSELECTCARS.CO.UK

---

Aa Dealer Promise From BRM Select Cars Ltd In Scunthorpe Lincolnshire, Visit Us Today For The Best New And Used Cars For Sale

 

 

This is the AA link to the Dealer Promise:

Dealer Promise | AA Cars

WWW.THEAA.COM

 

 

So you also have another avenue to approach this as they signed the AA Dealer Promise via AA (have a good read of both the links above of the Dealer Promise.

 

 

Can you clarify for us as I have done a search from your updated vehicle details and everything I am coming across for your cars make, model and year of manufacturer all show 'Bi Xenon Headlamps' is this correct with your car?

 

 

 

[Manxman in exile]

13 hours ago, Catter said:

...

 

Also i informed them, that to ignore the findings under the CRA will lead to a criminal conviction.

 

...

 

 

You've told them it will lead to a criminal conviction?

 

(Very nice 'bike in the avatar... )

[BankFodder]

16 hours ago, Catter said:

BankFodder

 

I would be interested in the content of your Facebook message to BRM cars.

 

TIA

 

Quote

Is it true that you sold  a Mercedes which was advertised as having xenon lighting but in fact it didn't have that kind of lighting at all and now you are ignoring your customer?

 

[Catter]

 

Hi all. These are the emails i have sent to BRM select cars.

 

emails1.pdf

[BankFodder]

When you get this stuff about it being a criminal offence not complying with the Consumer Rights Act?

Apart from the lights, if they were as described – Xenon – would you be prepared to keep the car?

How much would it cost to have the lighting system converted?

 

What is the name of the person you have been dealing with at BRM?

[Catter]

Hi BankFoddder.

 

I have uploaded the emails i have sent to BRM select cars, just a little while ago.

 

The person i dealt with is called Harry Bing.

 

'IF' the lighting system was correct, as advertised, i would keep the car.

 

The cost to convert to the correct spec. Would involve changing the complete headlamps, adding motors for directional system, wiring the whole lot into the ecu and reprogramming. Who knows?, perhaps £5-6k.?

 

I know i read somewhere, perhaps on this forum,? that to ignore the findings under the CRA, would/may lead to a criminal conviction.

 

Thanks for the copy of your fb message.

[BankFodder]

If you read on this forum that ignoring obligations under the Consumer Rights Act is a crime then I'd like to know where it is please.

You can take it right now that it's not a crime and by telling the dealer that it is a crime, you simply make it clear that you don't know what you're talking about you lose credibility.

I think you need to get a proper estimate for the light conversion job. – "Who knows?" Is really not very sufficient because you are dealing with a serious matter and where you will probably end up bringing legal action.

I'm afraid that "who knows?" Is on a par with trying to tell somebody that if they ignore their obligations under the Consumer Rights Act then they are committing a crime.

You have indicated to the dealer that you are rejecting the vehicle. That is absolutely correct thing to do – but the problem is that if you then have to sue the dealer – as you may will do, then you are immediately going onto the fast track on the County Court and this means that if you lose (extremely unlikely) then you would have to bear the costs of the other side. It's always a slight risk.

On the other hand, if your claim is for less than £10,000 then you go onto the small claims track and this means that even if you lose, you would not have to pay the winners costs.
It's simply one less thing to worry about.

I think you ought to consider having the lights converted if you are happy with the car generally and it would be worth getting a proper estimate – probably two estimates from reputable authorised garages for the work. In writing.

I forgot to ask you how far BRM is away from you?

Of course if you decide to keep the vehicle and simply get the lights converted then it means that you are in full conflict with the dealer and if any other defects occur in future, you will find yourself having to deal a garage that doesn't feel very good about having you as a customer.

Finally, it's all very well to get a judgement in your favour – and on the facts that you have given us, this would be straightforward – but enforcing the judgement could be a different matter.

We don't know whether this particular dealer is a slippery customer and tries generally to avoid the consequences of being sued. But a determined dealer can do this quite easily and we have lots of instances on this forum where that has happened.
A customer/victim as for a county court action, secured a judgement – and then been unable to enforce which means that they have been left with the defective vehicle, the bill for repairs and also having to bear the County Court fees – as well as the wasted enforcement fees.

Just to rub it in a bit – but also for the benefit of others who visit this discussion, if you had paid by some consumer credit loan then you wouldn't have any of this problem.

[Catter]

Hi stu007

 

Yes, you have the correct details for the car. And yes, that is the lighting spec.that should be installed.

It is called 'intelligent lighting system' automatic levelling, directional following steering, oncoming vehicle sensors etc. That is why i bought the car, i had researched for that spec.

 

None of the above lighting system is fitted.

 

I have printed off and kept, a copy of the ebay advert on which i first saw the car advertised.

 

I did have a look at the mot history. That doesn't show any dubious information.

 

The HPI check i had done after discovering this light problem, shows that the car should be fitted with LED headlamps. This is also incorrect. Halogen bulbs are what the car is fitted with.

 

None of the documentation from the dealer mentions xenon lights. But their advertisement and verbal confirmation certainly do.

 

I will have a read of the AA links thankyou.

[Catter]

Hi BankFodder.

 

I am somewhat offended, that you imply, that i do not know what i am talking about, when i said, to ignore findings under the CRA is a crime. Surely those findings are legally enforced? then, to ignore that legal enorcement is to commit a crime.?

 

Briefly,The Legal Aid Sentencing and Punishment of Offenders Act (2012) Commencement No11 order 2015   (s1 2015.504) became law. Thus bringing into effect s85(1)(2)and (4) of the above. Magistrates can now issue unlimited fines for breaches of Public Law. Which includes the Consumer Rights Bill 2015.

 

It is certainly not my plan to, consider converting the lighting system, thus, i have not looked at any costings.  I would guess those costs, could be 1/2 again of what i paid for the car. Therefore a guess, so, who knows?

 

[BankFodder]

I think you're quite wrong about the criminal aspects of consumer rights legislation – but I wouldn't be offended I would be pleased to learn something which I hadn't known about and which was important to the role I play here.

Please would you be kind enough to quote the actual words you are relying upon and provide a link.

It may not be your plan to consider converting the lighting system but I think it should be and in any event, I think you should find out what the costs are. I think this is important.

I think there is another dimension to this which you haven't considered.

If you decide to sue BRM for the cost of conversion, and if you are right that it will be about £4500, that will probably remove the entire profit margin for them and in fact they will probably be down on the deal.
This would be a considerable disadvantage to them.

On the other hand, if you sue them for the refund on the vehicle, they will get their vehicle back which they will then be able to go on to sell either correctly advertised or continue to advertise it incorrectly and if they are lucky to some other person who is less worried about the description or who does not find their way to this forum, will end up buying it.
In other words, if they accept the vehicle back and provide you with a refund, they really don't lose very much at all.

On the other hand if they fork out simply to upgrade your own vehicle, then they will definitely be out of pocket.

I don't expect that you have seen it in this way.

This is something I would put to them in advance correspondence so they understand the issues and the economics of behaving themselves.

However you will be able to do this unless you have a proper quotation and this is why I don't think casual approach this is sufficient – but of course it's your vehicle, your money, your case to win or lose and so it's up to you.

You come here for advice – I don't think you are acting in your best interests at the moment.

I'm looking forward to receiving the information about the criminality of breaching the Consumer Rights Act

[BankFodder]

I realise that you haven't responded to my question about how far away from use the dealer. Is there a reason for this?

[Manxman in exile]

11 hours ago, Catter said:

Hi BankFodder.

 

I am somewhat offended, that you imply, that i do not know what i am talking about, when i said, to ignore findings under the CRA is a crime. Surely those findings are legally enforced? then, to ignore that legal enorcement is to commit a crime.?

 

Briefly,The Legal Aid Sentencing and Punishment of Offenders Act (2012) Commencement No11 order 2015   (s1 2015.504) became law. Thus bringing into effect s85(1)(2)and (4) of the above. Magistrates can now issue unlimited fines for breaches of Public Law. Which includes the Consumer Rights Bill 2015.

 

It is certainly not my plan to, consider converting the lighting system, thus, i have not looked at any costings.  I would guess those costs, could be 1/2 again of what i paid for the car. Therefore a guess, so, who knows?

 

 

As I suggested yesterday morning in #7 (and BankFodder since then) I don't think you know what you are talking about.

 

s85 of the Act you quote relates to certain fines in respect of criminal convictions in magistrates courts  The Consumer Rights Act has nothing to do with either criminal offences or criminal convictions.

 

Ignoring a civil court decision is not - on its own - a criminal offence, but can be enforced by further civil action.

 

The point is that stating something that is not correct will tend to suggest to the car dealer that you may be all bluster, not understand your actual rights, and be a bit of a pushover.  Best not to mention anything you aren't 110% sure of or don't fully understand...

[Catter]

BankFodder,

Manxman in exile.

 

My interpretation of the legallities of the CRA is, that to ignore the findings and any directives, can lead to a criminal conviction.

 

Any Court hearing, concerning the CRA, is conducted by a Judge eg. Disrict Judge. County Court Judge.Therefore, to ignore that Courts findings/rulings is a criminal offence.

 

 

The amended rules in 2015 have huge implications concerning all aspects of trade and public laws.

The House of Commons Library is a good source to start your own research.

[BankFodder]

Well if that is the way you want to handle it , it's up to you . It is your case to win or lose .

 

Maybe you could explain to us how you are going to proceed because I'm sure we will be interested to see what happens and to learn any lessons

[Catter]

BankFodder

 

Thanks for the suggestion of getting quotes for a lighting upgrade. I had not thought of that in the manner you present. I will get some quotes for the job.

 

The dealer BRM select cars is about 50 miles from me. They were the closect i could find that had a car with the spec. i required. Which turned to be incorrect, as i have discovered.

 

[dx100uk]

1 hour ago, Catter said:

Any Court hearing, concerning the CRA, is conducted by a Judge eg. Disrict Judge. County Court Judge.Therefore, to ignore that Courts findings/rulings is a criminal offence

 

be careful here what you mean or are intimating is correct , civil courts, ie county courts are not criminal courts, thats a magistrates court and above.

[Catter]

dx100uk.

 

I stated that ignoring findings under the CRA. is a criminal offence.

 

I am using the scenario that a trader totally ignores any findings/directives. Then Trading Standards could/should become involved and assuming continued ignoring/non compliance, TSO can take criminal court action. Penalties can imposed and convictions.

 

Ref. Business Companion (Trading Standards Laws explained)

 

I know the above would be the extreme, but it could happen.

[dx100uk]

35 minutes ago, Catter said:

I stated that ignoring findings under the CRA. is a criminal offence.

it is not.

 

now if TS take it on and use their powers is a totally different thing.

but i seriously doubt that unless there are numerous reported cases on their files lodged against a retailer, they would never get involved in a case like yours and escalate it to such levels....forget it in your case.

 

the car is unfit for purpose, not as described and you are within 30 days so exercise your short term right to reject it.

 

stop using ruddy email.!!

 

write a formal letter of complaint, then follow that up with a letter of claim giving them the required 14 days. then off to small claims court.

 

stick with the tried and tested method we know has worked 100's of times here not start fluffing your feathers out an spouting total BS, that puts you on the backfoot with them from the get go, but like using freemen of the land twaddle.

 

dx

 

 

 

[BankFodder]

6 hours ago, Catter said:

dx100uk.

 

I stated that ignoring findings under the CRA. is a criminal offence.

 

I am using the scenario that a trader totally ignores any findings/directives. Then Trading Standards could/should become involved and assuming continued ignoring/non compliance, TSO can take criminal court action. Penalties can imposed and convictions.

 

Ref. Business Companion (Trading Standards Laws explained)

 

I know the above would be the extreme, but it could happen.

 

I don't know where this discussion is going. You are clearly in a minority of one in what you are saying about this – but the most important thing is do you want to move on and if so what is your gameplan?
This forum really is about taking action and providing solutions to problems – so shall we get going?

[Catter]

BankFodder

dx100uk

Manxman in exile

stu007

 

I have re read all my posts on this subject and realise that i have been coming across as a complete T*T. I humbly apologise to you all for that.

 

I recieved an email attachment from this dealers solicitor this morning.

 

As it is the Christmas nothing can be done at the moment, so i will post further in a couple of days.

 

I wish you all a Merry Christmas.