Second hand car developed fault. Blue Motor Finance

[Checho]

Hi there,

 

Thanks for this amazing forum. Please see below 1-  letter I sent to financing company in regard of issues and 2- their response. 

 

What is the next step moving forward? 

 

Thanks

 

1- LETTER SENT TO COMPANY ON 2ND DECEMBER 2021( BOTH BY EMAIL AND POST TRACKED DELIVERY)

 

Quote

 

Dear Blue Motor Finance Team,

 

 

I entered into a Hire Purchase agreement with you on the 27th of October 2021. 

 

 I picked up the vehicle, a Citroen C4 Grand Picasso EXCL BLU on the 30th of October. On my way back home, after driving it for over an hour, the seatbelt alarm for the middle row left hand side seat went off. It was unsettling and dangerous as the alarm went off several times for long periods of time, distracting my driving. There was nobody in that seat, nor any object leaning on it.

 

 I also noticed last night that the clutch of the vehicle is slipping when engaged in gear and accelerating with emphasis. The engine revs up but the car does not react accordingly. This is a serious issue that needs to be fixed as soon as possible to avoid further and serious damage to the transmission. This issue only happens when the throttle is put down with emphasis in 4^th, 5^th and 6^th gear. When the car is driven slowly, the issue is not noticeable at all and the car responds normally, hence the fact I had not noticed before.

 

 I will not drive the car in order to avoid further damage to it.

 

 This car was not of satisfactory quality at the time of sale and if it was, it has not remained in that condition for a reasonable period of time.

 

 I would like to kindly ask you to provide a response in the next 7 days, as time is of essence here.

 

 I bought this vehicle for work reasons and I do not have a suitable alternative vehicle. I would like to kindly ask for a replacement vehicle until the car is repaired. If this is not provided, I might need to rent a vehicle for work. If this is the case, I will be looking for a reimbursement of the expenses incurred in doing so as well.

 

As I am within six months of the date of purchase, I am asserting my rights under the Consumer Rights Act 2015 and I am providing you with a single opportunity to repair the vehicle failing which I will consider a full refund.

 

 I have sent a copy of the letter to the dealership and I kindly require you to enter into discussions with each other to discuss whether or not you are going to repair the vehicle or declined to repair it in which case I would like to know what arrangements will be made to refund me my money and to remove the vehicle from my property.

 

 I would like to ask you if you are a member of or willing to use ADR to resolve this issue as an alternative to an undesired court case.
 

 Kind regards,

 

 

2- THEIR RESPONSE received on 6th Dec 2021 by email.

 

 

Quote

 

Good Morning, 

 

Thank you for your letter dated 2nd September. 

 

As the dealer has the first opportunity to repair under the Consumer Rights Act 2015, the vehicle has not been returned to the dealer and/or we have not been provided with evidence by means of a diagnostics to confirm the faults you are experiencing with your vehicle. 

 

The dealer has also advised that you have warranty with your vehicle, which enables you to take your vehicle to a reputable garage for repairs. Please could you confirm if you have exhausted all avenues? 

 

As a regulated business, the FCA allows us 8 weeks to investigate a Complaint and therefore please allow us this time to investigate your concerns, once we have sufficient evidence. 

 

Should we establish liability, we will review the possibility of offering a hire vehicle, however we are not required to mitigate customers losses as the vehicle should be for personal use not business. 

 

Once we have the evidence required to establish our liability, we will be able to discuss this with you further.

 

 

 

[Checho]

I must also add that I do not wish to use the warranty, as it is pretty much useless, and the car had around 115000 miles when I bought it. it has not 1000 miles more. 

 

The vehicle was purchased for £7499. The dealership is 3 hours drive away from me. I live in London N13 and they are in Blackburn. 

The dealership confirmed with me by email after the first fault was notified (seatbelt alarm going off) that they are willing to repair the vehicle at no cost to me if I returned it to them.  Should I let Blue Motor Finance know about this? Thanks.

[BankFodder]

Well done on buying a car by hire purchase. You can read up about the position you would have been if you had paid by cash or paid by bank transfer.

However, – Big Fail – on buying a car three hours away. You can see what we say about that in our used car guide.

You seem to be handling it very well.

It's a shame that you didn't report this within the first 30 days of ownership. The seatbelt problem would have been quite enough to amount to a defect sufficient to entitle you to reject the contract.

Yes, I think you should let blue motor finance know that there has already been an offer to correct the first fault. You say that this would be at no cost to you but of course you're going to have to incur the cost of driving to Blackburn and then return and presumably waiting around for them to complete the work – assuming they can do it the same day.

 

Quote

Dear Sir/Mdm

Reference number XXX

Thank you for your letter of XXX date.

As you know, this is a hire purchase agreement and as such you are effectively the dealer to all intents and purposes. You have a contract with the dealer but that is a different matter and of course it isn't a contract governed by the consumer rights act because neither of you are consumers.

However I am a consumer and I'm protected by the consumer credit act and you have all the responsibilities to me as if you were the retailer (which you are).

You are a business which is regulated under the FCA – but also you are a business which is regulated under the consumer credit act and this makes you liable under any consumer legislation which I enjoy – in particular, the Consumer Rights Act 2015.

The retailer has already indicated that they are prepared to repair the first full which occurred – the seatbelt fault. 
I'm fully prepared to drive the car back to Blackburn for this repair and also for a further diagnosis of any other defects. Of course I shall be claiming the costs of this from you – in particular if it means that the car has to stay with the dealer overnight or longer and I have to return at a later date.

As a gesture of goodwill to you, I'm prepared to try and take steps to mitigate your losses by taking the car to a repairer local to me in order to have the work and diagnosis carried out out there.

Of course this will depend on your preference is the liability rests with you and so I'm giving you seven days to let me know which course of action you would prefer me to take.
I hope you understand that I'm trying to have your best interests in mind at all times.

I should warn you that if you do prefer me to return the vehicle to the retailer in Blackburn, then I may well decide to carry out my own independent inspection should the retailer not agree that the faults which I am describing exist. If an independent inspection confirms my own view then I shall be looking to you to reimburse the cost of this inspection in addition to any other costs I reasonably incur.

You may feel that it is more cost-effective for you in the long term if I have the car repaired locally and diagnosed locally because then this will also amount to an independent inspection.
 

In respect of your reference to a warranty, please don't stop trying to fob me off on to warranties.
I am perfectly happy to rely on my statutory consumer rights – and I think you had better understand that.

I hope you also understand that warranties are subordinate to statutory consumer rights.
 

You say that your business is regulated by the FCA – and of course that is correct – and that also means that if you start making misleading statements or try to avoid your responsibilities to me then in addition to county court action I am entitled to make a complaint to the financial ombudsman service.

The FCA may allow you eight weeks to investigate a problem and to produce a final response, but what the FCA permits you to do is subordinate to my rights under current consumer legislation.
Your trumpeting of what you are allowed to do by the FCA is calculated to mislead me.
Don't do it.

You have told me a vehicle which is defective and not satisfactory quality. This is a breach of contract. Your statement that I'm not entitled to recover any reasonable foreseeable losses caused by your breach of contract is incorrect.
In particular, your statement that as a consumer I do not have the same entitlement as a business customer is quite wrong – and also calculated to mislead me because I'm sure you must know better.

I accept that it is fair enough that the retailer should have an opportunity to inspect the vehicle and to ascertain the fault. I'm putting this in hand immediately and as soon as my position is confirmed then I shall be looking to you to either arrange or at least to agree the cost of repairs so that they can be put in hand without any delay.

Don't imagine that that will be as long as eight weeks.

If you want eight weeks then you had better stop taking steps to acquire the evidence you think you need and you had better start counting from now.

Yours faithfully

 

 

Check the letter – especially for typos because I use dictation software.

Check that it addresses all the points above and you think you are prepared to send it.

[Checho]

Thanks for the feedback, letter template and tips. I love this forum. Great work done here. Congratulations.

 

My only concern with the letter is the fact that, if they accept me driving the vehicle to Blackburn for diagnostics or repairs, they may be able to claim that I drove the vehicle, making the issue (slipping clutch) worse and refusing to pay for it.

My approach to this is to ask them in the letter if they are accepting this risk?? I could also ask them to arrange a visit to a garage for diagnostics and provide the details of the appointment and provide them with a reasonable timeframe for repairs to be carried out. What is a reasonable timeframe for this? 7 days? 

I could also suggest that they provide a garage around here and I will take the car for a diagnostic, if they take responsibility for the fee. Any comments on this? 

 

Thanks again. So grateful for the service provided by you. 

 

 

 

[BankFodder]

Good point. Yes make it clear that you are giving them a couple of days notice in order to object to you driving it to Blackburn. That if you don't hear from them then you will take that as a sign that they don't have any objection.

Incidentally, I've corrected a typo in my draft above in red

Don't offer them other options for the moment. Simply say that you are proposing driving the vehicle to Blackburn and you are giving them 48 hours notice to object

[Checho]

Great. Thanks.  I will give them the option of it being diagnosed near me too, as I do not see any cons to this and seems reasonable in order to minimise disruption to me. 

 

One more question.. how many days I give them to responde? Seven? 

[BankFodder]

Yes, giving them the option of it being diagnosed by you is a pretty good idea and in that case I would tend to express it as giving them an opportunity to mitigate any losses by agreeing that you can have the car dealt with locally.

I've amended the letter above to reflect this. See what you think

[Checho]

Again, massive thanks to you for the help provided. Two questions: Should I show the dealership correspondence from Blue Motor Finance? Should I send them this letter?

 

I have changed a couple of bits from your letter. Please see below the final draft:

 

Quote

 

Dear Sir/Madam,

Thank you for your email on 6^th December 2021

As you know, this is a hire purchase agreement and as such you are effectively the dealer to all intents and purposes. You have a contract with the dealer but that is a different matter and of course it isn't a contract governed by the consumer rights act because neither of you are consumers.

However I am a consumer and I'm protected by the consumer credit act and you have all the responsibilities to me as if you were the retailer (which you are).

You are a business which is regulated under the FCA – but also you are a business which is regulated under the consumer credit act and this makes you liable under any consumer legislation which I enjoy – in particular, the Consumer Rights Act 2015.

The retailer has already indicated that they are prepared to repair the first fault which occurred – the seatbelt fault. 

I'm fully prepared to drive the car back to Blackburn for this repair and also for a further diagnosis of any other defects. Of course, I shall be claiming the costs of this from you – in particular if it means that the car has to stay with the dealer overnight or longer and I have to return at a later date. By insisting on this option,  I take it that you do not have any objection in me driving a faulty vehicle for over three hours, therefore assuming the risk of making the transmission issue worse or even risking a possible catastrophic transmission failure.

 

As a gesture of goodwill to you, I'm prepared to try and take steps to mitigate your losses by taking the car to a repairer local to me in order to have the work and diagnosis carried out there.

I should warn you that if you do prefer me to return the vehicle to the retailer in Blackburn, then I may well decide to carry out my own independent inspection should the retailer not agree that the faults which I am describing exist. If an independent inspection confirms my own view, then I shall be looking to you to reimburse the cost of this inspection in addition to any other costs I reasonably incur.

You may feel that it is more cost-effective for you in the long term if I have the car repaired locally and diagnosed locally because then this will also amount to an independent inspection and avoid further damage to the transmission.
 

In respect of your reference to a warranty, please stop trying to fob me off on to warranties.
I am perfectly happy to rely on my statutory consumer rights – and I think you had better understand that. I hope you also understand that warranties are subordinate to statutory consumer rights.
 

You say that your business is regulated by the FCA – and of course that is correct – and that also means that if you start making misleading statements or try to avoid your responsibilities to me then in addition to county court action I am entitled to make a complaint to the financial ombudsman service.

The FCA may allow you eight weeks to investigate a problem and to produce a final response, but what the FCA permits you to do is subordinate to my rights under current consumer legislation.
Your trumpeting of what you are allowed to do by the FCA is calculated to mislead me.
Don't do it.

You have sold me a vehicle which is defective and not of satisfactory quality. This is a breach of contract. Your statement that I'm not entitled to recover any reasonable foreseeable losses caused by your breach of contract is incorrect.
In particular, your statement that as a consumer I do not have the same entitlement as a business customer is quite wrong – and also calculated to mislead me because I'm sure you must know better.

I accept that it is fair enough that the retailer should have an opportunity to inspect the vehicle and to ascertain the fault. As soon as my position is confirmed, then I shall be looking to you to either arrange or at least to agree the cost of repairs so that they can be put in hand without any delay.

Don't imagine that that will be as long as eight weeks.

 

I'm giving you seven days to let me know which course of action you would prefer me to take.
I hope you understand that I'm trying to have your best interests in mind at all times.


Yours faithfully

 

 

[Checho]

Happy New Year to you all. 

 

I sent the above letter on the 13th Dec 2021 and gave them 7 days to reply. However, I have no received any reply. Absolute silence on their behalf. 

 

I suppose the next step is a letter before court claim. Am I right? I would appreciate some advice, please. 

 

[BankFodder]

You'll have to remind me – have you had an independent inspection carried out?

Also, I'm a loss to understand why you send them a letter giving them seven days and then at the end of the seven days you do nothing. Do you think this enhances your credibility?

[Checho]

Hi there,

 

You'll have to remind me – have you had an independent inspection carried out?

 

No. Not yet. I am waiting for their response. 

 

Also, I'm a loss to understand why you send them a letter giving them seven days and then at the end of the seven days you do nothing. Do you think this enhances your credibility?

 

No. It doesn't. I have been very busy. My fault. Although it doesn't enhance my credibility, I hope it doesn't trump my statutory rights. 

[BankFodder]

No it doesn't trump statutory rights but I do think that credibility is at least as important

[Checho]

Point taken. Thanks. I will be on top of it. 

 

What is the next step moving forwards, please? A letter before court claim? Any other options available?

 

[BankFodder]

You can either send a letter of claim immediately – but am afraid that it is so close to their eight weeks that it might almost be worth waiting to see whether they breach their deadline.

It would help if you had an independent assessment and if you decided to that then the sensible thing to do would be to write to the finance company, tell them that you are about to get an independent assessment and it will cost £XX and you will be seeking reimbursement of that sum as well as reimbursement of the cost of the car and any ancillary expenses.
Tell them that if you don't hear from them within, say, five days that you will proceed with your plan.
Tell them that after that you will be sending them a letter of claim

[Checho]

Great. Thanks. I did send them a letter on the 3rd Jan 2022 following your suggestions. 

 

On the 5th Jan 2022 I received this from the complaints team:

 

Quote

 

Further to my letter of 8th November 2021, regretfully, I have been unable to fully resolve your complaint.

This is because you were not happy to go through your warranty therefore I have been in discussion with the broker/dealer about the repairs of your vehicle.

 

explained in my email dated 21st December 2021, the dealer have agreed to repair your vehicle but they will need the vehicle to be taken back to do so.

 

I am sorry that I have yet to reach a decision. I would like to thank you for your patience and understanding as I realise this investigation has taken a little longer than expected.

 

In the meantime, if you would like to discuss the matter further you can contact me 020 3005 9334. Our phone lines are open from 8am to 8pm on Monday to Friday. Alternatively you can write to me at the address above.

You have the right to refer your case to the Financial Ombudsman Service as I have not resolved your complaint

yet, but I hope you will allow me a little more time to reach a conclusion.

 

The Financial Ombudsman Service can be contacted using any of the following methods:

 

 

It seems to me it took them 8 weeks to let me know the dealer is willing to repair the vehicle.

 

I think this is the way forward and my plan is to push for this to happen asap.

 

Am I right with this approach?

I plan to contact the dealer and confirm in writing the terms of the repairs (how long it will take them to inspect and repair the car). 

 

I'd like to claim all the ancillary expenses incurred too.

How can I do this?

 

Is there any better plan or alternative? 

 

Thanks

 

If I decide to take the car there, I will also tell them that by doing so, they accept the risk of making the fault worse.

[dx100uk]

well there is only one chance to rectify anyway under cra else you are entitled to then totally reject it for a full refund.

 

dx

 

[BankFodder]

There are several problems here that I can see.

First of all as you obviously understand, you have to get the car to the dealer and if you decide to driver there then there is a risk of causing further damage.
Secondly, you haven't so far obtained an independent inspection – and I believe that you haven't even begun to make the arrangements for an independent inspection despite the fact that this was suggested earlier.
You are attempting to return the scarf or repaired to a dealer who is clearly already reluctant and will be unhappy at what is happening and you have no idea whether they will do a good job or not and also you have no idea whether they will agree with your view that the faults exist.

You have got no independent evidence which confirms what you consider all the defects in the vehicle. You could easily find yourself in a position where the dealer makes some kind of repair and then informs the finance company that the repair has been carried out. You then bring the car back and you find that either the repair hasn't been completely carried out or there are other defects which have not been addressed and you are almost back to square one.

Of course under the legislation, the finance company has a single opportunity to carry out a repair – but if that repair is carried out and other defects emerge then you are still in the same problem and also you will have exceeded your six months right to reject and that will plunge you into further legislation.

You have bought a car three hours away and that means that you will have to arrange to return the vehicle to them and I suppose they will want the car at least overnight and maybe two or three days so you will then have to arrange to return to your home, wait for the repair to be carried out and then you will have to travel to Blackburn again to collect the vehicle and then return again.

Assuming that it is confirm that the defects exist and therefore they are in breach of contract, we will help you get your ancillary losses but you won't get anything at all – or nothing satisfactory in terms of all the time you have wasted having to deal with all of this.

Also bear in mind, if any further defects manifest themselves – even minor defects you will have to factor all of this in when deciding whether or not to go to the dealer again.

You may well find yourself so fed up with it that you end up paying for the repair of defects at some local garage to you. At the end of the day this car is going to cost you far more than you thought you paid but that is always the case with cars which are bought at a distance.

I'm emphasising this not only to make you realise what you have got yourself into – but also for the benefit of others who may visit this thread and it may help them think twice about buying a car in the way you have done.

As we already said, at least you bought it through a finance company because if you hadn't I'm pretty sure that you would be into very serious conflict with this dealer.

I'm saying once again that I think you should get an independent inspection to confirm all the defects. This is been going on since the beginning of December and you had ample opportunity – and I don't understand why you don't want to take this simple step. If an inspection confirms the defect and other defects then you will be able to get the cost of any inspection back although of course you will have to lay the money out in advance.

Secondly I think that you should write to the finance company and tell them that you are having an independent inspection carried out to confirm the defect and to identify any others and that you are arranging to return the car to the dealer for repair and you are proposing that the most cost-effective way will be to drive it there.
Have they any objection.

 

You certainly need someone to commit themselves to saying that it is okay for you to drive it there.
However, I can tell you now that it would be extremely foolish for the finance company to tell you that this would be okay and they would be far more prudent simply to say that you will have to make your own appropriate arrangements according to your judgement.

That would place the responsibility completely in your court and if you did drive it there and it made the situation worse then you would have another conflict on your hand. It is even possible that a dealer might claim that you had made the situation worse simply to reduce the liability on their own shoulders.

The solution then would be to have the car transported but you would have to let them know in advance that you are doing this and the cost of it and give them notice that you will be looking to them for reimbursement.

If later on, the dealer came back and said that in fact the defect which you have detected doesn't exist, you might find the finance company then saying that transporting the car was unnecessary and they are going to pay out.

Of course if you had an independent inspection which also advised what was necessary to address the problems, this would help you – but you haven't done that.

And if you think I'm being overcautious or over suspicious about everything, then you really don't understand the tricks that these dealers and these finance companies are prepared to play to avoid paying out even just a few hundred pounds.

[Checho]

Thanks for your prompt response. I appreciate your straightforwardness and I do not think you are being over suspicious or cautious. 

 

I will have an independent inspection of the car asap and let the finance company and dealer know of it and once the result of the inspection has been provided to me, ask them if the have an objection in me driving the vehicle to the dealership for repair. 

 

If the inspection reveals the fault and the finance company/ dealership keep playing tricks, I will seriously consider to exercise my right to reject. 

 

Thanks again. 

 

 

[Checho]

The car will be inspected next Tuesday morning. Thanks.

 

 

[BankFodder]

That's great.

You need a proper written report – identifying all defects and proposed work required to remedy the defects.

If they want to give a quote for the work that would be useful but the most important thing is to have a complete diagnosis of the defects and how they are fixed – so for instance if there is an engine problem, they should identify the engine problem and they should say whether it needs a new engine or whether it can simply be repaired and what the repair might entail

[Checho]

Hi,

 

I have an inspection done to the vehicle with a full diagnosis confirming my claims: the clutch slips and it's worn to excess and needs replacing. The other issues found are due to the battery levels being low (due to not driving the car). The seatbelt issue is there too. I am not bothered by it as it is easily dealt with by having the seatbelt clicked in place. That sorts it out. 

 

So I plan to write to the finance company and the dealer letting them know about the outcome of the inspection and asking them to repair the vehicle and if they object to me driving the vehicle to the dealership and give them 5 days to respond. Is this the best way forward? 

 

Thanks. 

[Checho]

Hi,

 

I had an email from Blue Motor Finance yesterday:

 

Good Afternoon,

 

As I have not heard back from the broker since advising them you did not want to go through your warranty. I have arranged an independent inspection with a company called Scotia inspections. 

 

They will be in contact with you to confirm a date. Once this has happened we can confirm the faults with the vehicle and look into the repairs as requested.

 

Kind regards 

 

How should I respond? 

 

Thanks a lot. 

[BankFodder]

I'm trying to get back into the loop on this.

Looking back at the thread, I see that you started off with a reply from them claiming a weeks which apparently was dated 6 December. Yet elsewhere you refer to a date – 8 November and the finance company requiring a weeks from then.

You may already have made this clear but maybe you could explain again what the chronology is please

[Checho]

Hi,

 

The 8th November 2021 was the first time I sent a letter to them letting them know about the seatbelt alarm going off. I had not spotted the slipping clutch issue then. 

 

On the 2nd Dec 2021 I let them know about the slipping clutch issue. I gave them 7 days to respond, which they did on the 6th Dec 2021, claiming they needed 8 weeks to investigate and stablish liability.

 

They replied to me on the 5th Jan 2022 ( letter copied above) and then again yesterday the 12th Jan 2022 telling me they will make an inspection of the vehicle. 

 

I hope that helps. Please let me know if u have further details. I have always included their correspondence in this threat. Noting else has been received. 

Thanks again. 

 

 

[Checho]

I meant if you need further details, not if you have further details.  Sorry for the typo.