Complete Auto 100, Nottingham - Car purchased in July - Annual service discovers crack in head - **SETTLED**

[Ubwa]

Quote

 

Hi

Looking for some advice to get prepared for the worst. I purchased a 2015 car on HP in July for ~£33k. I took it to the main dealer for its annual service on the 25th November. As I went back waiting for the last bits to be done, I was called to the workshop to be shown one of the spark plug wells half full  of coolant. After an afternoon of inspection and an overnight pressure test, it was diagnosed as a crack in the water jacket. It is small, hence not noticing it by low coolant levels or other routine maintenance, and it’s the first service in the schedule where the plugs would be changed. 

 

I immediately contacted the finance company and said I am Informing them of the fault under my consumer credit rights and I will be in touch once I know more. I shortly thereafter got the report from the dealer and forwarded it to the finance company. They finally got back to me last Thursday (response speed not being their strong suite once agreement signed..). Initially they tried to say they are talking with the dealer and I said as far as I know my contract is with them, and it’s got a crack in a lump of aluminium and the only fix is a new head- so it’s just who does the bill get sent to. The issue is obvious. They tried to say that the dealer is jointly liable to me? Anyway I went ok whatever intending to contact the dealer myself if that’s the case, however they then phoned me back saying they spoke to their manager and they need to have the car “inspected”, again I argued this as they already had a report from a dealer from a prestige brands main dealer - it’s akin to dropping an egg on the floor and then insisting it goes through 5 experts to diagnose why the yoke is all over the place..but they said they “can’t take my word on it” and need their engineer. I said I insist on being there during the inspection which they said was ok. They said they will contact me later that day or Friday to book the inspection. They didn’t. They did give me the name of the company as Scotia Inspections. So off I go to Google and no medals for guessing how I got here..

 

So anyway, I don’t want to be given the run around, nor just pay it all myself - the repair is nearly £8.5k - especially considering the time of year… Any advice on how I can get ahead of the (what I am sure is the start of) stalling tactics, blaming it on the offside rear tyre not being from rubber from jungles roamed by unicorns or something. I want the car repaired- as it is brilliant otherwise. So far the dealer has been very accommodating but they are a business- where do I stand if they start wanting to charge storage fees or similar? It is not at the dealer I purchased it from as they are 100miles away.

 

 

Hi

Looking for some advice to get prepared for the worst.

 

I purchased a 2015 car on HP in July for ~£33k. I took it to the main dealer for its annual service on the 25th November. As I went back waiting for the last bits to be done, I was called to the workshop to be shown one of the spark plug wells half full  of coolant.

 

After an afternoon of inspection and an overnight pressure test, it was diagnosed as a crack in the water jacket. It is small, hence not noticing it by low coolant levels or other routine maintenance, and it’s the first service in the schedule where the plugs would be changed. 

 

I immediately contacted the finance company and said I am Informing them of the fault under my consumer credit rights and I will be in touch once I know more. I shortly thereafter got the report from the dealer and forwarded it to the finance company.

 

They finally got back to me last Thursday (response speed not being their strong suite once agreement signed..).

 

Initially they tried to say they are talking with the dealer and I said as far as I know my contract is with them, and it’s got a crack in a lump of aluminium and the only fix is a new head- so it’s just who does the bill get sent to.

 

The issue is obvious.

They tried to say that the dealer is jointly liable to me?

 

Anyway I went ok whatever intending to contact the dealer myself if that’s the case, however they then phoned me back saying they spoke to their manager and they need to have the car “inspected”, again I argued this as they already had a report from a dealer from a prestige brands main dealer -

it’s akin to dropping an egg on the floor and then insisting it goes through 5 experts to diagnose why the yoke is all over the place..but they said they “can’t take my word on it” and need their engineer.

 

I said I insist on being there during the inspection which they said was ok. They said they will contact me later that day or Friday to book the inspection. They didn’t. They did give me the name of the company as Scotia Inspections. So off I go to Google and no medals for guessing how I got here..

 

So anyway, I don’t want to be given the run around, nor just pay it all myself -

 

the repair is nearly £8.5k - especially considering the time of year…

 

Any advice on how I can get ahead of the (what I am sure is the start of) stalling tactics, blaming it on the offside rear tyre not being from rubber from jungles roamed by unicorns or something.

 

I want the car repaired- as it is brilliant otherwise.

 

So far the dealer has been very accommodating but they are a business- where do I stand if they start wanting to charge storage fees or similar?

 

It is not at the dealer I purchased it from as they are 100miles away.

Edited December 6, 2021 by BankFodder
Restructured in order to make it readable

[BankFodder]

Well done on having paid by hire purchase. People who pay by cash or who pay by bank transfer are not in such a fortunate position.

In terms of buying a second-hand car 100 miles away – big fail.

As you have said, it is the hire purchase company which is liable. It is their vehicle. What exactly have you told them in respect of the consumer rights act? Have you asserted your rights and made it clear that you will be relying on your six-month right to reject if they fail in a single repair?

What's the name of the hire purchase company?

You say that the dealer is acting responsibly – but maybe you could tell me who they are as well

[Ubwa]

Thanks for the reply except for distance part.
 

Not a fail when it’s only one of a few in the UK(at the time only 3 where for sale from dealers in the uk- I would never buy a car privately or at the least on a credit card). I only tend to splurge big (to me)bucks on what I actually want and I am a bit of a petrol head. It’s more than a form of transport for me.

 

I am not naming dealers at this time as they have yet to do anything wrong and the one acting (more than) reasonably is the main dealer that identified the issue, not the one I got the car from so no need to name them at all. They have in fact worked with me to get a very good price to replace the head with support from the manufacturer - to the point of the original dealer would not be able to buy just the head for the all in price on offer. So I have done half their leg room for them too. I will phone the dealer myself today to get their story and if they play silly buggers up their name will go. As I said in the original post - I am hoping for the best, expecting the  worst and want to be prepared. 

 

Finance company is Oodle. I did say I am contacting them under my rights from the consumer credit act but didn’t say I am rejecting, but did say the outcome I am looking for is for it to be repaired.

[BankFodder]

I hope you notice that in your first post I had to restructure the solid blocks of text that you posted. It will be very helpful if you would make sure you  introduce better spacing because we have lots of people who come to this forum using telephones and it is extremely difficult for them to read.

The fact that you assert your six months right to reject does not mean that you are then obliged to reject the vehicle. It simply reserves your position on that matter. You always retain the option to reject or to keep the vehicle.

However it puts more pressure on the dealer or the hire purchase company – whoever happens to be the responsible party.

If you are doing things on the telephone then make sure you have read our customer services guide and implement the advice there. It really is important and if you don't then at some point you will regret it.

if you are strapped for the car and if you haven't have the money then probably a good option might be to pay for the repairs yourself and then proceed directly get the hire purchase company for reimbursement. However this means that you would be out of pocket for a while.

Also if you did this then we would have to be very careful about giving the hire purchase company advance notice of what you are doing and of the expenses you are about to incur on their behalf.

In any event, you are just within the six months and if I were you I would assert the right.

If you want, draft a letter and then we will have a look at it here

[Ubwa]

I typed it on my phone, ironic. I’ll use my laptop for more substantive updates.

 

I have another car - I’d rather not splurge out multiple thousands at an already expensive time of year - the service was £1000 in itself.

 

My immediate concern is their inspection company. Do I pre-empt and pay for my own to coincide with theirs, even though its not needed in anyone with common senses eyes? It just seems like knuckle dragging.

 

I’ll take you up your offer, thanks. Communication has been mostly via email, and I have followed up calls immediately with an email of what was discussed. Got it the 7th of July if I recall, notified them of the issue on the 25th November.

[BankFodder]

So it is currently with a repair garage near to your home.
Presumably the hire purchase company know about this – and have they expressed any view.

It's very important to try and notify the hire purchase company of everything you do – well in advance – including likely costs of any action so they have an opportunity to object or to propose an alternative.

If you have put it into a garage of your choice, then you certainly need to make sure that the hire purchase company know about this and have had an opportunity to express a view.

Waiting to see your draft letter

[Ubwa]

It is at the dealer that performed the service that identified the issue. I have not moved it, because even if I wanted to I came drive it now knowing what I do. I told the finance company sitting in the dealership reception.

 

I did not decide to take it for repair to a garage near me. I had no idea this was there until it was shown to me. I have also straight up asked them if they are happy where it is and they said yes. I have incurred no further costs outside the initial service it was due, that I have obviously no intention of claiming back. 
 

to summarise facts:

1. I purchased a 2015 car on HP for £31,980 in July from an independent dealer. The car has full main dealer service history and had done 36000 miles
2. Car went in for its 6 year service at my nearest main dealer on 25th November
3. When it came to change the spark plugs, coolant was found in the spark well for cylinder 7. I saw this myself. Could not definitely say what it was caused by (apart from the obvious - a crack) as no one had seen a similar fault so performed more diagnostic tests.
4. I contacted finance company via their live chat informing them of issue- yes I have a transcript. Was told a complaint was raised and they would be in touch. I then went home.
5. when I got home a form had been emailed to me to fill out that asked questions such as what I had done so far, where it is, what resolution I would like and other needless things like was it taxed or insured. I completed and forwarded the form
6. Dealer diagnosed a crack in the cylinder heads water jacket the next morning, causing a slow leak under pressure. The dealer did not charge for the diagnosis.
7. I asked the dealer to email me a report. I then forwarded this to the finance company with an updated version of the form sent the previous day.
8. The following Tuesday I got an email saying they tried to phone me and asking, I quote “I understand you were in the process of getting a Diagnostic Report completed on the vehicle, please can you send this into us so we can forward this on to the dealer to investigate?” To which I sent it again, informing them I sent it the previous Friday 
9. I contacted their customer services to ensure receipt, getting through to my case handler appears impossible. They said they had.
10. Not having heard anything I finally managed to get through to my case handler last Thursday. They say they are waiting on the dealer. At this time I said I am raising it under my credit agreement with you to be told “ we do this everyday we need to hear from them”
11. I get an email back, back peddling a bit saying 
    “Further to our conversation, we have forwarded the information and report you have sent in to the dealership <name>. 
    
    We are jointly liable with the dealership for the issues with the vehicle, however as we don't have a work shop to repair the vehicle, we give the dealership the responsibility and a single opportunity to repair the faults.
    
    Once the dealership have reviewed the information we have provided, and we receive a response from them, we will contact you to update you. ”
     
12. I then received a phone call where I was told they need their engineer to inspect the vehicle, I asked if that was necessary as they already have a report for a pretty simple fault. I was told yes. I then said I insist on being there for it. I also confirmed if the car is ok where it is. I followed up with an email summarising our call and haven’t heard anything since.

I don’t want to be bent over here, nor do I want this to drag on. So I am not keen on waiting eons for the local guy from the pub to inspect it then get his mum to write a report which evidence points to being the quality delivered from the engineering company they use. I may be over cynical here but I’ve already had one crappy bit of news so why not more.
 

If I have to pay for it myself then try claim it back I’d probably go down a more legal route. What is a reasonable time frame to agree that the solution is to fix a crack in a lump of aluminium?

 

 

Edited December 6, 2021 by Ubwa

[BankFodder]

Thanks for the summary of events. It's very helpful.

However you haven't put any dates in but I gather that the crack was diagnosed on 26 November and that you informed the hire purchase company immediately.

They want an inspection – done by their own people. Do I gather they want the car taken back to the dealer who sold you the car?

You seem to be using the word "dealer" to refer to the dealer which sold you the car and also the dealer which diagnosed the crack. This is confusing.

You contacted the finance company last Thursday and they said that they are waiting on the dealer – but it's really not clear which dealer you are talking about.

Given that this is a £33,000 vehicle with only 36,000 miles on the clock, I would have expected the whole thing to be diagnosed and fixed within 10 days.
They aren't necessarily aware that you have a second vehicle and most people would be stranded in similar circumstances.

[dx100uk]

A crack in a coolant jacket an on ally engine is very common. Another inspection using a pressure test wont conclude anything different!!

 

Dx

 

 

[Ubwa]

I will add explicit dates to the list.

 

Well since the dealer i purchased the car from appear to be taking the stance of "not my problem" I will name them. Auto 100 in Nottingham.

https://www.auto100.co.uk/

 

The servicing Dealer is a Lexus dealer.

 

I notified the dealer on the 25th there was an as of yet undiagnosed fault and I would update. Fully diagnosed on the 26th and finance company updated on the 26th. Their engineer will be going to the Lexus dealer as realistically they are the only ones that can fix it this side of sanity - and are the best equipped to do so.

 

Auto100 do not have sufficient garage facilities to do the work themselves I believe. I have heavily suggested to the finance company I would not want it repaired by anyone other than Lexus as if it is repaired by anyone else I:

 

1. Lose the years MANUFACTURERS warranty I get on the car after each service. I am not interested in a third party warranty as evidence shows they are better suited as a form of composting media.
2. I have negotiated a massive reduction in price. It is without a doubt no other dealer can do it cheaper.

 

4 hours ago, dx100uk said:

A crack in a coolant jacket an on ally engine is very common. Another inspection using a pressure test wont conclude anything different!!

 

Dx

 

First reported for this engine in the model car ann the dealer network - worldwide. I must be cursed

[BankFodder]

Please monitor this thread for a reply later

[Ubwa]

Can't edit to add dates. If they help they are 

1. 8th July 2021 - car purchased from Auto 100
2. 25 November 20201 - Lexus services car, discovers coolant where there should be none. I tell finance company there is a problem and raise a formal complaint and stated the outcome i would like is for the car to be repaired.
3. 26th November 2021 - Confirmed crack in water jacket, I update finance company. Confirm its ok to leave it where it is. I forward engineers report from Lexus to Finance company
4. 30th November finance company responds to report and forwards to Auto 100
5. 2nd December notify it needs an "inspection". I confirm car is ok to stay where it is. I say I wish to be present at inspection.
6. 6th December told Auto 100 not interested, they will fight them but thats their responsibility not mine. I again confirm if car is ok where it is and what to do in case Lexus start charging for storage.. I am currently waiting on the phone to get a ate for inspection from Scotia Inspections. Dealer will have a technician dedicated to the time they are inspecting the car to make sure no silly buggers are played and to get straight to the fault. I receive repair quote from Lexus

[BankFodder]

So the dealers aren't interested

It doesn't matter, as you already understand the liability rests fully with the finance company and frankly I think that you are probably waited long enough because nobody seems to be committing themselves to sorting the problem out.

There are a couple of technical problems that you need to understand.

A quick of English law is that you must actually have suffered a financial loss in order to bring action. Although clearly the damage the engine represents a substantial amount of money – it isn't actually money.

Normally speaking if you're suing for breach of contract you would have to demonstrate a pecuniary loss and that means that you would actually have had to spend the £8000 to repair the vehicle and then claim it back.

I think that the county courts are sufficiently modern-minded that they may run with it anyway but I would be surprised if your hire purchase company objected in the first place to bring an action for the value of work which had been carried out.

The second thing though is that if you are not actually out-of-pocket then you won't be able to claim interest. The County Court rate of interest at the moment is extremely high comparatively speaking – it is 8% simple. You won't get that rate of interest anywhere else.

If you simply sue for the value of the repair without having spent the money, then assuming that nobody raises some technical legal objection, then all you will be able to recover is the £8000 for the repair and no interest.

If you spend out the £8000 now and have the car repaired then you will be to recover that money +8% until the money is repaid to you.

Of course the hire purchase company won't actually want to go to court about this and eventually they will pay. However they will simply try to pay you your net sum – but if you have actually started proceedings then my advice would be that you should stand your ground and tell them you want every last penny including the interest – as well as your court fees.

There may be other losses which you are incurring why this car is off the road. Presumably you are paying insurance. Presumably also you are paying road tax. You have an alternative vehicle so you aren't really in a position to claim for alternative transport but on the other hand if the loss of this vehicle is costing you anything else then we need to know about it.

You certainly need to calculate a daily rate for the insurance which is basically money thrown away and also a daily rate for the road tax which is also money thrown away.

If there are storage fees then they should be recoverable as well.

My recommendation to you is that you get the work done after having given proper notice to the hire purchase company that this is what you going to do and that you are then going to see them to recover the money.

Let us know what you think about this.

Have you asserted your right to reject?




 

[Ubwa]

Thank you for your advice so far, I appreciate it. However, while I don't have a problem with (subjective) reformatting of my posts, adding hyperlinks to keywords, etc., please can you stop editing the content of what I write - in this case, making sure this now potentially appears prominently for anyone searching the purchasing dealer on search engines? It is putting words in my mouth and is just rude. My earlier comments are based on what the dealer told me. Had I known what would have happened, should I have named them, I wouldn't have, as I cannot guarantee the veracity of the claim with my own eyes. 

 

I am aware of the basic intricacies of needing to prove law, and how it works in general, and having to prove loss, etc. The only legal recourse mentioned was if I needed to pay for it myself - and if I need to go that way, I will keep a running update here to help others. I am aware I will have to pay for the repair myself before I go down any legal recourse. There are other aspects of the various acts that can also be explored if it appears they are not following their obligations, other than me paying and claiming back. I am not a lawyer, nor have I needed to understand that the legislation does this depth in the past - hence my asking for assistance here. The only reason I mentioned it in passing is that it is the last resort.

 

And again, I don't mean to sound ungrateful for the advice given thus far, and appreciate it, and you have already helped. I feel like we have gone straight to level 11.

 

My current view of this is:

• It's closer to £9k, having looked at it again today. You may be able to drop £9k at the drop of a hat - but I can't, especially around an already expensive time of the year. And I earn enough to put me in the smaller percentage of the county’s earners. I hated having to type that as it can come across as boasting, but I did it to explain that having that much liquid cash is unrealistic - especially with interest rates what they are. I would have to sell equity, cash out saving etc. This will take time. The only card I have with enough credit limit to cover that much is my company one, which is a no-go.
• I agree this is taking too long for a simple, albeit expensive fault. It's analogous to fixing a crack in a windscreen. No one would call for an engineer report on that situation to know what the cause and solution was
• The core driver for me arriving here asking for advice is the additional delay their potential cowboy of an engineering company will introduce. A view reinforced having spoken to them to arrange a date.

I am not putting any more exact details or prices at this stage, because I don't want to be any more identified than you already have by changing the thread title. One Google and those with knowledge know exactly who I am, and I don't want to potentially damage relations with the parties on my side by opening a potential can of worms. Law of unintended consequences and all that. In hindsight, I regret naming anyone yet, as this can still realistically be resolved this week. I just wanted to initially come for education and understand my options. Hope for the best, plan for the worst. And to escalate if plan A or B didn't work.

 

To answer:

 

7 hours ago, BankFodder said:

Have you asserted your right to reject?
 

 

I think I have. I phoned them today again, asserting the complaint was raised as a rejection under section 75 and recorded the call. I plan to follow this up tonight in an email with all the magic incantations and keywords I seem to have to include. However, I would still appreciate it being proofread if I could send it to someone via a PM. This is not because I have left any details out, it is just that it will include details around the repair I do not want to put in the public domain at this time, as it may compromise my position.

[dx100uk]

just to be clear, the 'hyper links' are somewhat automatic in the forum software, sometimes we are not a direct party to what issues these are causing users?

[Ubwa]

I thought that was the case, that's not the issue, it's more putting the dealers name in the title, and I know exactly why it was done.

 

I just think it's jumping the gun IMO as I didn't hear from them directly. Then again I put them in the body, which would have had the same outcome more or less.

 

Would you mind proof reading/sanity checking the email before I send it to finance co, please? It can be posted here after it has been settled one way or the other.

 

And again, apologies if I'm coming across insincere - I have just had one of those Mondays, only to have to come back to sort this out.

[BankFodder]

Yes, we do put the dealer's name in the title and precisely to make it more available for others who might find themselves in the same boat as you.

If it encourages other people to come forward with similar experiences then that is good for them and good for you.

In terms of spending the money. We are not instructing you to spend the money – we have just let you know the situation – it would be easier and more profitable to you to fork out for the repair now and then to reclaim the money.

The liability is clearly with the hire purchase company and it seems to me that it would be helpful to you if you took a firmer approach to them.

I asked you if you had asserted your right to reject and you have said simply that you believe that you have done so on the telephone.
Of course that is more than adequate to satisfy the Act – but like many of these things, if you don't have evidence that you did it then it is easily deniable by the other side.
Unfortunately this is why things should always be in writing and it's also why we encourage people to read our customer services guide.

When you say that you believe you did assert your right on the telephone – was that to Auto 100 or the hire purchase company?

Of course as you want to keep the car then the right to reject may not be relevant to you – but you may as well have that in reserve in any event.

Also, because of the seriousness of the defect which has manifested itself, you probably have the right to say that the contract has been terminated by the breach of the HP company and therefore you are accepting the termination and you simply want your refund.
That's a fundamental principle of contract law and in your case it would probably mean that you would need to fall back on the right to reject.

You want it all coming across as insincere but you are certainly coming across as exasperated by and a bit exhausted by it. I can't say I blame you.

Where is the email that you want us to check?
However, you might as well go through the motions of asserting your right.

[Ubwa]

I can't seem to send you a PM with the email. I don't want to put it on the public domain at this stage, not because I have left anything material out, but because it may compromise my position (not regarding finance company) if I do so at this time.

[Hammy1962]

There are all sorts of reasons a Cylinder Head might crack. A suitably qualified independent Engineer (Here we go again) might be able to identify the reason.

They also, probably, have never worked in a Pub.

 

H

[BankFodder]

2 hours ago, Ubwa said:

I can't seem to send you a PM with the email. I don't want to put it on the public domain at this stage, not because I have left anything material out, but because it may compromise my position (not regarding finance company) if I do so at this time.

 

Please will you just simply put the documents up all the emails up. There's no disadvantage to you. As long as you are honest and straight dealing about what you do then everything is fine.

We don't play secret squirrel skulduggery here.

I'm afraid this kind of reticence is simply slowing everybody down. 

 

 

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

4 minutes ago, Hammy1962 said:

There are all sorts of reasons a Cylinder Head might crack. A suitably qualified independent Engineer (Here we go again) might be able to identify the reason.

They also, probably, have never worked in a Pub.

 

H

and none of it is relevant to this thread

[Ubwa]

 

5 minutes ago, Hammy1962 said:

There are all sorts of reasons a Cylinder Head might crack. A suitably qualified independent Engineer (Here we go again) might be able to identify the reason.

They also, probably, have never worked in a Pub.

 

H

Not where it has cracked and in the manner it has - the only reason would be a defect in the casting. Its already gone all the way back to HQ and they sent someone to look over and above the dealership technician to have a look.

 

Look at the reviews on the named company, you will see why I said my pub comment. I have no problem with a qualified independent Engineer looking at it. I may even organise one myself from a reputable company.

[Hammy1962]

It would be advantageous to find out why though. What if you fit a new head and that cracks as well, possibly from overheating due to a water pump fault for instance.

 

H

[Ubwa]

I explained why - a manufacturing defect from what can be gleaned with it on the car and  where the crack is . It is the only instance of it happening on this vehicle in the world to Lexus' knowledge, it was in the dealers interest to find out the cause too. I believe the broken head will be sent to Japan for further investigation, one replaced. No engineer inspection can add to the level of scrutiny it has had or will have.

 

It is in a place where no load or overheating could have caused it.

[BankFodder]

How many miles have you driven the vehicle since you bought it in July?

[Ubwa]

roughly 2500