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    • I unexpectedly had a couple of hours free this afternoon and thought I would have a bash at helping simeon drafting his counterclaim.  Everybody please feel free to comment on and - hopefully improve it!  (In particular I am not sure if I've got the terminology correct vis a vis counterclaimant and defendant - so that may need correcting).   I am aware that Andyorch and BankFodder often stress the importance of keeping POCs to the bare minimum so as not to give away your case too much.  Whether I've given too much detail - or not enough - here, I don't know.  As I say, it's free to be pulled apart, but simeon seems to have nothing else.   Paras 1 - 16 (in black typeface) are simply a precis based on what has gone before and I've used them to put the counterclaim in context. Paras 17 - 19 (in red typeface) are simply my attempt to provide a basis for simeon's counterclaim.   At the end of the day this is simeon's documant - nobody else's.  simeon has to satisfy himself that it is both accurate and true, and also says what he wants it to say.  He will also have to order and sort out any attachments.  As I said earlier, I'm NOT giving legal advice!   Here goes... ===================================================================================================== Counterclaim   1.      The defendant agreed to undertake building work (Project 1) at the counterclaimant’s property in relation to 3 specific areas of work for an agreed price of £4300.  The work was:   a. To underpin the bay window at the property, b. To replace and repair a previously removed chimney breast and, c. To install a new beam to the patio door.     2.      It was agreed that Project 1 was to be carried out under the instructions of a structural engineer engaged by the counterclaimant and that the defendant’s work would be as a result of instructions received following the structural engineer's assessment of the property.   3.      Between June and July in 2020 the counterclaimant provided the defendant with a full copy of the structural engineer's report which detailed instructions to the defendant for the works to be carried out.   4.      It was agreed between the parties that the works would commence on 13 August 2020.     5.      It was agreed between the parties that payments for Project 1 would be made in three instalments. The first payment would be made at the start of the defendant's work. The second payment would be paid at the halfway point of the defendant's work. The final payment would be made on completion of the total works.   6.      The defendant commenced work on 13 August 2020 and the first instalment due was paid.     7.      On 24 August 2020 the defendant asked the counterclaimant to arrange an inspection of his work by the Building Control Inspector.  The defendant also stated that Project 1 was approaching mid-way and the counterclaimant paid the second instalment due.   8.      The Building Inspector arrived to inspect the defendant’s work but the defendant was absent.  The inspector was obviously very displeased by the standard of the defendant's work.  The inspector spoke to the defendant by telephone, asking him why he was absent and interrogating him about the work he had done.  The inspector then gave him some instructions over the telephone and also left a list of instructions with the counterclaimant to be passed on to the builder.  The building inspector then said he would be getting in touch with the counterclaimant’s structural engineer with his findings and the counterclaimant should hear from the engineer soon.   9.      The counterclaimant passed on the Building Inspector’s instructions to the defendant who agreed to follow them.   10.  The structural engineer visited and recommended piling to complete the underpinning for Project 1.  The defendant explained that he could not undertake this work. The structural engineer then suggested an alternative company to the counterclaimant to do the necessary work and this company was engaged by the counterclaimant to complete the necessary piling at an additional cost to the counterclaimant of £3300. (See receipt at Attachment1).     11.  The defendant asked if the counterclaimant needed any more work to be done and, despite the problems encountered on Project1, the counterclaimant agreed on 7 September 2020 to have more work done (Project 2) at an agreed price of £2580 and on similar payment terms to Project 1.     12.  As work commenced on Project 2 and was continued on the remaining work for Project 1, the counterclaimant had occasion to make several complaints to the defendant regarding the standard of his work.   13.   Barely a week after starting on Project 2, the defendant demanded payment for that work.  After a period of negotiation the counterclaimant agreed to pay him £2000 on 18 August 2020.    14.  The counterclaimant subsequently paid the defendant  £1500 in cash.  Both parties agreed that this left a balance outstanding on Project 2 of £1080.     15.  It later came to the counterclaimant’s attention that the defendant had removed material (including a steel beam) from the counterclaimant’s property that the counterclaimant suspects either belonged to him or had been paid for by him in connection with Project 1.  When challenged the defendant admitted he had done this.  The counterclaimant has included the value of this material in his counterclaim detailed below.   16.    On 21 September 2020 the counterclaimant highlighted and sent a snagging list to the defendant (Attachment 2).  Over a month later the defendant sent an employee to attend to this work.  It was not carried out satisfactorily and resulted in an updated snagging list being sent to the claimant (Attachment 3).  All of this snagging work remains undone by the defendant.     17.  Apart from the outstanding snagging work referred to in para 16 above, the defendant also left other work from Projects 1 and 2 uncompleted.  That work which was not completed is listed at Attachment 4.   18.  During the course of carrying out work on Projects 1 and 2 the defendant also negligently caused substantial damage to the counterclaimant’s property (as itemised in Attachment 5) by not executing the work with the skill expected of a reasonable tradesman.   19.  The counterclaimant seeks an order from the court directing the defendant to pay to the counterclaimant the sum of £nnnnnnn {Simeon - put in the actual total amount here} in respect of:   (a)   the cost of the piling referred to in para 10 above which the defendant could not undertake and another contractor had to be paid to complete; (b)   the cost of completing work the defendant had left undone from Projects 1 and 2; (c)   the cost of remedial work to put right the damage negligently caused by the defendant and referred to in para 18 above; and (d)    the cost of the steel beam referred to in para 15 above.   A receipt in respect of item (a) - see Attachment 1 - and two priced quotes in respect of items (b) and (c) - see Attachments 6 and 7 - are attached in support of this counterclaim.     =================================================================================================================   What I'm not entirely clear about are two points.   First, it's not 100% clear to me whether simeon can properly claim the £3300 in paras 10 and 19(a) or not.  What I mean is, simeon is arguing that this work required by his structural engineer was always within the agreed scope of Project 1.  But it's not clear to me if it was within scope or whether it was entirely new and unforeseen work.  As I see it simeon can only counterclaim this amount from the builder if it had already been incuded in Project 1.   Second, the basis of the counterclaim still seems extraordinarily thin to me.  Is it sufficient at this stage just to allege that the builder caused any damage negligently and is therefore liable to pay to put it right.   That's it from me I think...    
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PRAC/BW chasing deceased mothers £89 EON bill.


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Hi,

I have just received a letter at my address from BW Legal/PRAC on behalf of Eon in the name of my deceased mother who passed away in May 2020. In the letter, it says she owes E.ON a sum of £89.59. 

 

Last year she was transferred into a care home for palliative care from hospital in February and therefore would not be returning to her council house and I informed council, utilities etc etc. We had 3 weeks to clear her house which we did. We cleared the house and handed it and the keys over to the council. We then informed Eon that the house is now empty and is in the possession of the council. Mum passed away in May 2020.

 

I was her executor of her will. The will was very basic and it was just small possessions to give to family. There was no money to leave. In a part of the will was she had life insurance policy which was spent on a headstone for her and my father. 

 

Please advised what to do next. 

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Arh probate - A Tough one. 

Once of the team will be along - Pretty sure you just need to send confirmation of her passing (Death Certificate) and confirmation that no further money exists in the estate. 

 

But weirdly enough - CARP Financial and Borked & Witherings Legal do initial background checks on their portfolio purchases so they should already know this. 

Hold out for a member of the team here... 

 

We could do with some help from you.

 

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**Fko-Filee**

Receptaculum Ignis

 

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If EON still own the debt, then write to them with a photocopy of the death certificate advising them that there are no funds remaining and that the Council took the property back from xx/xx/xx date.    Enclose a copy of the debt chasing letter from BW Legal and advise EON to ensure that no further letters regarding this matter are sent.

 

Because of the amount,  once the letter is received, they should just cancel the debt and stop writing.

We could do with some help from you.

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  • dx100uk changed the title to PRAC/BW chasing deceased mothers £89 EON bill.

do as above

stuff and all anyone can really do.

a dca is NOT a BAILIFF. zero legal powers

 

i would suggest that this debt has been SOLD to PRAC, and PRAC's letters do not state at the top 'our client EON'

 

 

 

dx

 

please don't hit Quote...just type we know what we said earlier..

DCA's view debtors as suckers, marks and mugs

NO DCA has ANY legal powers whatsoever on ANY debt no matter what it's Type

and they

are NOT and can NEVER  be BAILIFFS. even if a debt has been to court..

If everyone stopped blindly paying DCA's Tomorrow, their industry would collapse overnight... 

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Well I know that you are probably in a bad place right now but if it is correct that they've been informed and they have simply not processed the information correctly then frankly I would be after them for wrongful processing of personal data causing distress and I reckon the compensation payment would probably be in the region of £500 in the circumstances.

If you want a hand then we are here for you

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So I phoned up BW and informed them of the circumstances. I was asked to provide proof etc. This is the email and actual letter I sent to all parties involved (E.on, PRAC and BW)

 

Following my telephone call with your agent on the 4th December 2021, I wish to inform you that my mother xxxx xxxx passed away on the xxth May 2020. I enclose a copy of her death certificate for proof as requested. 

 

My mother has never resided at this address. It was used as a care of address whilst she was moving into a care home for palliative care. E.on was informed of the circumstances as soon as possible.

 

I was also informed by your agent that no further action would be taken and that I consider this to be end of the matter. 

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I really would send eon and also PRAC each a subject access request. It costs nothing and it may help you to understand what has gone on and also the route out of it

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My best guess is that when we surrendered the house back to the council, we informed them of the utilities already in place and that the council didn't contact eon. 

The council was going into lockdown that day and I guess things got missed etc. 

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I would send them an SAR as well.

I would find out who had made the mistake then I would go in all guns blazing – although that may not be to your taste.

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Don't worry I intend to get to the bottom of this. 

I assume that I cannot be chased for this in anyway ? Or if I am chased I can ignore and not play their game ? 

It's just the principal of it all. To ask my mother to pay a "debt" 18 months after her death isn't on.

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no you can't

yes you can ignore

 

have you a PRAC letter par chance?

does it say our client EON.?

 

i suspect EON sold the debt on to a debt buyer (PRAC) hence the letter from BW states our client PRAC.

 

it would say our client EON if the debt was not sold on.

 

a dca can't assign a debt to a 'solicitor' (even if it is a fake paperwork one in a way as its PRAC using their letterhead in the same printer) when they are not the debt owner.

 

 

please don't hit Quote...just type we know what we said earlier..

DCA's view debtors as suckers, marks and mugs

NO DCA has ANY legal powers whatsoever on ANY debt no matter what it's Type

and they

are NOT and can NEVER  be BAILIFFS. even if a debt has been to court..

If everyone stopped blindly paying DCA's Tomorrow, their industry would collapse overnight... 

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What fun it would be if it went quite far with "collectors" turning up at my door. Imagine the service charges adding up and all for nothing 😜

 

Yes I do have a PRAC letter and it does say Our Client E.ON.

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really, they should not be putting a sols onto her, as thats just another DCA then now anyway.

 

you might well get some serious compo out of EON for this.

 

atrocious behaviour for EON.

please don't hit Quote...just type we know what we said earlier..

DCA's view debtors as suckers, marks and mugs

NO DCA has ANY legal powers whatsoever on ANY debt no matter what it's Type

and they

are NOT and can NEVER  be BAILIFFS. even if a debt has been to court..

If everyone stopped blindly paying DCA's Tomorrow, their industry would collapse overnight... 

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The actual timeline is mum transferred from hospital to care home 18 Feb. We cleared house etc and handed keys back to council 17 March. We informed Eon on the 17 March and gave a final meter reading (Key meter) We assumed that was it. Mum died 25 May in care home. 

Don't know if this makes a difference ? 

 

Just remembered that when giving final meter reading to Eon, the final balance was worked out to be in credit for what they are chasing for now £89.59.

They sent a cheque to my address. It was spent on admin for her estate, death certs, letters to creditors etc.

 

Also BW are saying the debt owed is from the 7th March to 10th May 2020. 

This clearly cannot be possible. 

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Then if you want to press forward, send the subject access requests. There could be some reasonable compensation here – and maybe your mother would be pleased about it.

Until you send the SARs, I'm afraid everything is speculation

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so its an old bill that they found she had not paid when closing the account.?

 

 

please don't hit Quote...just type we know what we said earlier..

DCA's view debtors as suckers, marks and mugs

NO DCA has ANY legal powers whatsoever on ANY debt no matter what it's Type

and they

are NOT and can NEVER  be BAILIFFS. even if a debt has been to court..

If everyone stopped blindly paying DCA's Tomorrow, their industry would collapse overnight... 

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No not a bill at all.

She was in credit by £89.59 when the account was closed. 

They sent the check to her care of address (my address) as she was in a care home.

Edited by dx100uk
unnecessary previous post quote removed
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5 hours ago, HertsCorn said:

My mother has never resided at this address.

 

so the eon A/C was never in her name anyway?

please don't hit Quote...just type we know what we said earlier..

DCA's view debtors as suckers, marks and mugs

NO DCA has ANY legal powers whatsoever on ANY debt no matter what it's Type

and they

are NOT and can NEVER  be BAILIFFS. even if a debt has been to court..

If everyone stopped blindly paying DCA's Tomorrow, their industry would collapse overnight... 

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EON may have paid £89 refund in error and now they want it back.

 

Up to you really. But once you have sent the copy death cert that should stop any further communications.  You can of course look to take this further, but whether you would easily gain any compensation, is the question that you need to ask yourself.  They may dig their heels in and you then get into months of ping pong communications.

We could do with some help from you.

PLEASE HELP US TO KEEP THIS SITE RUNNING EVERY POUND DONATED WILL HELP US TO KEEP HELPING OTHERS

 

 Have we helped you ...?         Please Donate button to the Consumer Action Group

 

If you want advice on your thread please PM me a link to your thread

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7 hours ago, dx100uk said:

 

so the eon A/C was never in her name anyway?

Yes it was in her name at her address. 

She used my address as a care of address when she moved into a care home. 

I was managing her affairs from my address while she was in the care home. 

Eon was made aware of this and agreed to it. 

She/we used the Royal Mail redirection service from her old address to my address. 

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28 minutes ago, unclebulgaria67 said:

EON may have paid £89 refund in error and now they want it back.

That's their problem. They said account was £89 in credit when it was closed. Sent the cheque after about 3-4 weeks.

They can't get it back from dead people. Unless they hold a seance.

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So we are talking about money which they may have paid her an error.

This is well over 12 months ago.
When was a refund actually made

How long ago did they start chasing for this debt?

What are BW legal proposing to do about this debt? Are they chasing you personally or are they chasing your deceased mother?

It is most unlikely they'll take any action on a debt this size – but if they did then there is clearly an estoppel.

It might also be worth looking at the effect of the backbilling code on this. If the time between making the refund and the time they started chasing for it is more than 12 months, then they are breaking the code.

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Sorry to hear about your mother's death @HertsCorn

 

I had a similar situation with E.On when my mother died and I was her Executor, although not involving DCAs. Some organisations seem unable to grasp that the person they claim owes the bill is no longer alive. I did find though that once I'd provided the Death Certificate that was the last I ever heard of it. Even debts my mother had owed and I was willing to pay from the Estate were never collected.

 

Can you clarify your post #7. Have BW agreed that they will not pursue you for payment and won't contact you again? Have they confirmed it in writing?

 

In answer to your general question about whether they can pursue you personally the answer is no (assuming you weren't personally guaranteeing your late mother's E.On account, which I'm sure you weren't). As Executor you have to settle the bills of the deceased out of the Estate but you were fully entitled to assume that E.On had closed the account as they'd sent you the closing account balance by cheque after you had given them the final reading. Neither Executors nor family members are legally responsible for the debts of someone who has died. And even if the Executor had been negligent no-one is likely to pursue court proceedings for £89.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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22 hours ago, BankFodder said:

So we are talking about money which they may have paid her an error.

This is well over 12 months ago.
When was a refund actually made

How long ago did they start chasing for this debt?

What are BW legal proposing to do about this debt? Are they chasing you personally or are they chasing your deceased mother?

It is most unlikely they'll take any action on a debt this size – but if they did then there is clearly an estoppel.

It might also be worth looking at the effect of the backbilling code on this. If the time between making the refund and the time they started chasing for it is more than 12 months, then they are breaking the code.

Refund was in March/April 2020.

 

The first I became aware of this was the 4th December 2021 via letter to my address.

 

BW wants to offer a 70% reduction to about £26ish.

They are not chasing me personally. They are chasing my dead mother. 

 

I'm not paying towards their Christmas party drinks bill. 

 

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