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    • OK, I've sorted out using the correct terminology to refer to the parties.   The original document was absurdly long and filled with waffle. I reduced it. Then MiE did so further – twice. I've continued on the theme and have merged (13) & (14) as I don't think we need to go into detail of why a £2000 payment because £1500, it'd just confuse the judge.  Feel free to disagree!   I've sorted out the new numbering and references to paragraph numbers.   IMO (16) needs beefing up to explain why the builder disappeared, but simeon seems to not want to explain this properly, so so be it.   Apart from that it looks about ready to go.   Counterclaim   1.      The original Claimant agreed to undertake building work (Project 1) at the original Defendant/now Part 20 Counterclaimant’s property in relation to 3 specific areas of work for an agreed price of £4300.  The work was:   a. To underpin the bay window at the property, b. To replace and repair a previously-removed chimney breast and, c. 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HA refusing to replace shed destroyed by tree falling on it during storm Arwen. Who's responsible for paying for new shed?


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I live in a housing association house, we have lived in house since it was built, when we moved in there was a shed in garden, it was installed when house was built and so there before we moved in. There for surely shed is seen as supplied with house and their for housing associations property.

Last Friday storm Arwen caused a tree in school ground behind us to fall, it hit roof at the back of our house, slipped sideways and smashed down on top of the shed, destroying it and everything inside shed.

I contacted housing associations to report what had happened, they have agreed to fix the house roof, but claim the shed is nothing to do with them and they will not replace it. They have told us we have got to pay to replace it and to claim on our insurance, but we only have contents insurance, I have been told this does not cover shed.

We were told when moved in that as we were renting we only needed contents insurance and that building insurance was landlords responsibility.

Am I right in saying that home building insurance covers the shed and that the building insurance is housing association responsibility.

Who should be the one to have to pay bill to replace shed. We have already lost everything in shed which includes 2 road bikes, children's bikes, kayak, tent and camping equipment and fishing rods, I don't see why we should have to pay to replace shed too.

 

As the shed is the housing associations property shouldn't they be paying for and replacing it?

or would it be the school that should pay for the damage as its one of their trees on their school ground that has fallen and smash our shed.

 

The School have not maintained the trees properly,  I have only seen the school trim the trees once since we have lived here and we have lived in this house 11 years, branches have been overhanging our garden, touching the house for a long time. I've asked them many times to trim trees but they never did. It was a accident waiting to happen.

 

who is responsible for replacing shed, what should I do and who should I speak to.

Any advice much appreciated
Thanks in advance

Edited by dx100uk
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It really sounds to me as if the school should be responsible for the whole thing.

Of course your buildings insurance might cover it as well but one would have to see the terms and conditions of the building insurance.

Which school is it?

Have you any photographs of the trees and their condition?

Have you got any written evidence that you ask them to maintain them?

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I don't have building insurance I only have content insurance as rent house from housing association.

It's a small church of England ( CofE) primary school in a small village.

I have some photos yes, I also have copy's of letters I hand delivered to school asking then to trim and maintain trees. And some emails I sent to school.

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Building insurance is down to the HA and not tenants.

 

Are you sure the shed was built by HA or maybe previous tenants built it, if there were any before you.

 

What does it say in your tenancy agreement about repairs, the shed ?

Edited by 45002

Please use the quote system, So everyone will know what your referring too, thank you ...

 

 

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Also, have you obtained a detailed list of the value of the various items which were damaged – including the shed?

What is your contract with a housing association say? Could it be interpreted as including the shed?

If the shed is the responsible to the housing association then the damage problem is between them and the school.

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House is a new build house, we have been living in house since the house was finished being built, the shed was put up in the garden when they built the house.

 

No previous tenant put it up as there was no previous tenant.

 

Every house on our estate has the same shed in garden, all were put in when the houses were built

Edited by dx100uk
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I'm going to go and have a look at tenancy agreement.

 

I am going to make a detailed list of all damaged items and shed and their values but don't know the full extent until the tree has been removed and can see if any thing has survived.

 

No one will take responsibility for having tree removed either, it's blocking all access to the back of the house and has  destroyed over half of  my garden. i can't even begin to know the full extent let alone clear up until the tree is removed.

 

Beginning to think im going to have to pay out for every thing myself including tree removal. Not fair really and not what we wanted just weeks before Christmas. If I have to pay for everything then that's Christmas cancelled.

 

Housing Association point blank won't help, woman I spoke to was rather rude, she said its my problem, they don't do shed repairs, or replacements . I have to pay for the shed and the tree removal is my problem too and to contact them when the tree is removed and debris gone and they will fix roof.

 

They told me to contact council about the tree and they might be able to help with removing it, but not had much luck with council yet. 

 

Just got told something about they only clear trees that have fallen on roads and council property which my house is neither.

 

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  • dx100uk changed the title to HA refusing to replace shed destroyed by tree falling on it during storm Arwen. Who's responsible for paying for new shed?

IMHO

The whole thing, bar shed contents, which are your own personal property, is down to the Housing Association to get sorted, inc the tree removal.

now if they have to latterly bill the school etc etc , that's down to them and the school to sort out not you as a tenant at all.

 

your only task should be to pursue the school for the value of your useless shed items , YOUR personal property.

 

dx

please don't hit Quote...just type we know what we said earlier..

DCA's view debtors as suckers, marks and mugs

NO DCA has ANY legal powers whatsoever on ANY debt no matter what it's Type

and they

are NOT and can NEVER  be BAILIFFS. even if a debt has been to court..

If everyone stopped blindly paying DCA's Tomorrow, their industry would collapse overnight... 

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My experience of dealing with Insurance for years and now having worked in public sector dealing with Housing Associations, is that sheds provided with HA properties don't often form part of the HA's responsibilities.  The shed is provided as an extra storage facility on a courtesy basis, will not be included in any tenancy information and will not be insured by the HA.

 

A tenants own Contents Insurance policy can include some items that would be classed under Buildings for standard Insurred perils including storm damage, damage from falling tree/branches, however, any cover will most likely exclude damage to sheds.  You may be able to claim for the shed contents.

 

Check all of the documents as suggested by other, but I think you will find yourself responsible for clearance of the tree and if you want a shed, you will have to replace it.

 

And you will find it very difficult to claim against the School for not maintaining the trees. If you tried to claim against them, they will pass it to their Insurers, who will say that this was a once in 20 years storm and the trees falling had nothing to do with lack of maintenance.

 

Nb.  If the HA won't help with costs of removing the tree, you could contact the local Council Authority to see if they can help as they may provide this service to residents.

We could do with some help from you.

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Hi

 

What you need to understand importantly as the tree that came down onto the Housing Association roof and your shed was on that Primary Schools land that Primary School is responsible for all the Damage and Removal Cost of that Tree.

 

You need to write to that Primary School asking them for a copy of their Public Liability Insurance and for the Urgent Removal of there Tree and briefly explain the damage caused do not go into to much detail.

 

Take photographs of all the damage including each item.

 

As for your Roof the Housing Association will get this repaired as they need to by Law as your Property requires to be Wind & Water Tight. What they will them do is pass this onto their own Public Liability Insurer who will go after the Primary School to get there cost back.

 

Your contents within that shed you will have to claim for these from the Primary Schools Insurance Company that is why you need to write to them.

 

As for the Housing Association Claim that Shed is not there responsibility this really comes down to what it states in your Tenancy Agreement as to who is responsible for that Shed.

 

I would still challenge their claim and always title your letters from now Formal Complaint


Dear Sir/Madam

 

Formal Complaint

 

Thank you for your response dated XX/XX/2021 in which you Claim you are NOT responsible for the Damage to the Shed which has been destroyed and your Properties Roof Damaged due to a tree falling onto your Properties Land from the Primary Schools Land (insert schools name here) on XX/XX/2021.

 

At the time I moved into this property the were New Builds and all Properties on my Estate all have the exact same Shed therefore these Shed are part of the Property and the Housing Association responsibility. As you claim they are Not your responsibility I therefore require full clarification from yourselves where it specifically states this and to be provided with copies. As these were New Build at the time you will have the
Plans for these properties as you would have needed planning permission I would like to be provided with a copy of these also.

 

As this Tree has Fallen onto your Land and Property from the Primary School I find it unacceptable that you seem to be passing the responsibility for the removal of that tree onto me the Tenant when in fact this is your responsibility to take the relevant action necessary to have this tree which is a Health & Safety Hazard Removed and I require full clarification from yourselves why you are failing to take action for the removal of this tree.

 

I also require copies of the following:

 

Complaint Policy (not the leaflet)
Compensation Policy (not the leaflet)
Repairs & Maintenance Policy (not the leaflet)
Right to Repair Policy (not the leaflet)
Health & Safety Policy (not the leaflet)
Public Liability Insurance 

 

Amend the above as you wish

 

 

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Hold the school responsible as recommended  although the land  and tree is likely to owned by the C of E Diocese not by the school so expect your letter to be passed to them. 

 

The tree belongs to the school or diocese and they should remove it it at their cost.

 

Whether they are liable for the damage caused to your shed and other property is more complicated. They aren't automatically liable, only if they have been negligent in maintaining the tree and ensuring it was safe. That will depend on its pre-storm condition, whether the school/diocese had a regular inspection programme, whether they should have known the tree was dangerous. Make sure you get as many photos as possible of the the tree  which may show it's pre-storm condition - cracks in the trunk, large boughs broken off, etc. Your earlier letters asking them to maintain the tree might be helpful evidence for you that the school/diocese did not have an adequate inspection and maintenance programme.

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Is there any proof the tree was diseased or of an old age, so it was forseeable that it would have fallen ?

 

If you are going to pursue the school or landowner,  whoever is responsible for maintaining the land including the trees, then you need to obtain evidence.   Otherwise you will find that those you are trying to get to clear the tree or reimburse you for removal may decide not to be liable for what has happened.  And if there is no admission of liability, they won't pay you so you can replace the shed.

We could do with some help from you.

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Hi

 

No harm in naming the School so we can do a bit of research for you.

 

 

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I would rather not name school right now as so far they have been helpful, they got tree removed and have given me there insurance details, head of school even came over to apologize so don't want to risk any upset naming school right now.

 

I read my tenancy agreement and it was very short,  it has housing association's name and address, mine and my husband's name , address of property then description of property.

Under description of property it says the following 

 

" Which Comprises of a 3 Bedroom house. In these conditions "Premises" means the dwelling including fixtures and fittings and (if applicable) any garden, paths, hedges and or fences, garages and outbuildings owned by association, which are the subject of this tenancy."

 

Then it has start date of tenancy and then just our signatures.

 

Am I reading it's correctly as they say premises includes fixtures, and fittings, paths, fences garages and outbuildings. Doesn't that mean the shed is part of property and there for the housing associations property.  Isn't shed classed as a outbuilding.

 

I have a tenants hand book which we were given a week after signing tenancy agreement when we moved in.

In tenancy hand book it states under who is responsible for what repairs that tenant is responsible for repairs to shed even if owned by housing associations. Doesn't seem fair if it's not ours. Is the tenancy hand book legally binding.

 

I have spoken to housing associations again and this time they claimed shed was gifted to us when we moved in and there for shed was ours. But was never told before that shed was a gift and have not been given any thing to say shed was a gift.

 

Also it gets more confusing, I sat and read tenants hand book fully and under section about if you move out it says make sure you empty your property out of shed, loft and other storage places before leaving. And leave these places clean and tidy.

 

Surely this emplies that if we move out we have to leave shed, there for its seen as there property. How can they have it both ways it is and isn't there shed?

 

I'm now concerned that If I do have to payout for a new shed my self which is looking likely, that I will be force to leave it behind if I ever do move.

 

Am I reading this all correctly

 

Any advice much appreciated

 

 

 

 

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The claim that they gifted the shed to you when you moved in but somehow forgot to record this "gift" anywhere or tell you about it is nonsensical.

 

They are trying to get around the bit of  the tenancy agreement that refers to "...outbuildings owned by association" by claiming that the shed isn't owned by them so not their responsibility. But the shed was there when you moved in, it's a new build (isn't it?) so the only people who could have supplied and erected the shed is the HA. Where else could it have come from!

 

The HA bought the shed and paid for it to be in your garden. So they owned it when it was installed and unless they can prove they gifted it to you they still own it. So ask them for evidence that it was gifted to you. If they can't they are responsible for its repair as they are for the repair of everything else of theirs damaged by the storm.

 

So the fallen tree has now been completely removed from your garden by the school at no cost to you?

 

The tenancy handbook is usually made part of the tenancy agreement. Often there's a clause in the agreement that refers to the handbook and requires you to comply with it. 

 

[EDIT] They can't deny they owned it originally because they couldn't have "gifted" it to you if they didn't own it! You can't "gift" something that isn't yours.

 

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Hi

 

Well that Shed is in your Tenancy Agreement as your Agreement states 'Outbuildings' therefore that Shed is an Outbuilding.

 

I have to agree them saying they 'Gifted' it to you but they cannot provide any evidence is complete rubbish so you write to then and demand that they provide written proof where you signed for this shed as 'GIFTED' and that you also require a copy of they plans and Planning Permission for when the Estate was built which you the Housing Association will have copies of.

 

Note: you can lookup your Local Councils Planning Portal and do a search for your estate to see if the Plans are their and download a copy they should be free to download but each Council is different so check their is not a cost just in case.

 

Your HA are playing games to get out of paying for the shed which all that would happen is they would claim this through there Insurance.

 

Anything they state in writing you challenge them and ask them to provide written evidence/proof of their claim to backup what they are saying.

 

I could be a trainee with that HA and put that in a letter in the hope that you will go away in the belief that the HA are Right in what they are saying this is what they do hoping you do not know your actual rights.

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I suspect the real reason they are trying to claim the shed isn't theirs is to avoid setting a precedent that would apply to all the houses, which all have sheds too (don't  they?). If they agreed it was theirs they would become reponsible for the ongoing maintenance of the sheds and replacing them when they rotted. That's the responsibility they are trying to get out of, rather than one storm damaged shed.

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