NCP/BW PCN PAPLOC now claimform - New Gatwick Drop Off Zone - I thought I had paid for both visits? ***Claim Dismissed***

[MoaningCrusader]

I picked up my parents on 14th Oct and dropped them off on 18th Oct 2021 at Gatwick airport. I for all intents and purposes had thought I had paid for these sessions by way of the Gatwick Airport website, and certainly the attempt of payment for the particular 'PCN' I have received was witnessed by my parents while I used my phone to make it.

 

However no payments have ever been taken and no confirmation email was ever sent for both sessions. I called NCP on 20th Oct at 4.19pm to make them aware of my concerns. I was given very vague information about the last parking session and informed there were issues with their system.

 

I told them I didn't want to received a PCN when I have been willing to pay. I have now received one, with no doubt another on its way!

 

What is the best way to appeal this? I have acted in good faith, but sadly have no real proof of what went wrong with payment process.

 

I hope you can help. Or should I just pay the £15 reduced charge and let it go now, as there's nothing I can apparently do to prove my attempted payments? 

 

[MoaningCrusader]

Sadly, no Homer67. This is why I called them on 20th Oct to find out what had happened, as I wanted the receipts for my motoring accounts.

1 Date of the infringement 14/10/2021
 

2 Date on the NTK [this must have been received within 14 days from the 'offence' date] 22/11/2021
 

3 Date received 24/11/2021
 

4 Does the NTK mention schedule 4 of The Protections of Freedoms Act 2012? [Y/N?] N
 

5 Is there any photographic evidence of the event? Yes
 

6 Have you appealed? [Y/N?] post up your appeal] N
 

Have you had a response? [Y/N?] post it up N/A
 

7 Who is the parking company? NCP

8. Where exactly [carpark name and town] Gatwick Airport - Drop Off N Terminal
 

For either option, does it say which appeals body they operate under.  POPLA

Sorry dx100uk full sticky now above. Please advise. It seems Barrowboy maybe correct on this occasion?

NCPNTK22-11-21.pdf

HB I have. I have yet to receive any other advice to my sticky that filled out?

I don't think I have defence in regards to my thinking I had paid my parking sessions online, but clearly the payments did not process.

Despite my honest attempt to find out what happened to my payments, NCP did not allow me to get to the bottom of it. Is there any point in pursuing this appeal?

[MoaningCrusader]

So to clarify. I am being advised to ignore all correspondence to await a court summons, if one should arrive at all.

 

Or is it advisable for me to write a letter from the registered keeper informing them I will not be paying and give the grounds on which why I will not be paying and then ignore all subsequent correspondence from them?

[MoaningCrusader]

On the whole are NCP particularly litigious, in your opinion? Or do they do the usual 8 escalating letters, then a further 8 or so from the sister debt collection agency and then give up?

 

I have rode out quite a few private parking firms in my time. I do normally respond as the registered keeper and inform them that I will not be disclosing the driver details nor will I be paying their 'unreasonable' parking charge invoice and then ignore any subsequent correspondence. But I am also aware that recently quite a few have started to take court actions.

 

It appears here that the fact that they have failed to send the NTK in time I don't really have to engage with them at all, am I right? 

[MoaningCrusader]

Hi dx

 from what I have read so far, it appears I should wait until I have received a 'letter before court claim', and then respond with my complaint in regards to the non POFA & GDPR issues around this particular invoice from NCP, while also drawing their attention to stated system failings in the phone call made on the 20th October by myself at 16:19hrs.

Will I be able to get help with the wording of this response, should the time come?

You have all been very helpful up to now.

I can't thank you enough.

[MoaningCrusader]

Hi Everyone. 

 

Thank you all for your time in commenting above.

 

It has been sometime since I started this thread, and I have been receiving a constant flow of letters from NCP and then BW Legal debt collection agency. I also have two more NTK's that I since received when I thought I had avoided the drop off zone in Gatwick airport by using a hotel forecourt, however they too were both received over 14 days since the contraventions, so I will probably have to follow the same course of action on all of them.

 

I have now unfortunately received my letter of claim from BW Legal, who are the debt collection agency for NCP, for the first contravention. They are requiring me to respond to this letter of claim by the 29th May 2022.

 

I was advised here on my thread to contact you again for further instruction on how to handle the claim, as they had failed to send their Notice to Keeper within the 14days from the apparent contravention.

 

Could you please advise me what I am to do next? I believe you have some standard responses I can use to make my case, or that you could help me complete my Letter of Claim response form sent to me by BW Legal.

 

I hope to hear from you all soon and that we can all deal with this. Do let me know what you will need from me.

 

MoaningCrusader

[MoaningCrusader]

Hi FTMDave,

 

Just to clarify with you, no these further NTKs were from NCP as well.

 

I was informed by a taxi driver that the charge could be avoided by using the hotel pick up area. However, I discovered that wasn't the case. And I received the NTK for both pick up and drop off using this method. 

 

 

[MoaningCrusader]

Hi Dx

Thanks for that.

I just searched the above, but I am only getting brought to threads, not a letter?

Is there something I'm missing.

Sorry if I'm being a bit search engine illiterate here.

PS once I get into my office I am going to scan the Letter of Claim for you all to see with my details obscure obviously.

[MoaningCrusader]

Thanks Dx

 

I am reading through one of the threads now.

 

Am I right in assuming this letter still does not mean they are actually going to take me to court? Just keep ramping up the threats of doing so?

 

Does it need a response now from me? Or do I wait for the County Court docs to arrive?

[MoaningCrusader]

I will take some time to read through all the threads that have come up on the BW snotty letter search. I think I will compose my own response using some of the advice and ideas from the search and this thread. I will post that before sending it.

 

I am willing to take this all the way, as I find the tactics of these companies just awful. How they prey on people's fear that the legal system is their enforcer, when in fact it is most probably our protector!

 

I will of course be donating to this site once this is over, as your help and support has been much needed.

 

 

[MoaningCrusader]

Thanks FTMDave!

 

I'll hold off on sending any letter for now. 

 

The principal debt on the Letter of Claim is £160 (that's broken down in a statement as £100 principle balance + Total Debt Recovery Costs of £60), Estimated Interest of £6.70, Estimated Court Fees of £35, Estimated Solicitor's Costs of £50. This is all comes to an estimated total of £251.70.

 

I was thinking I may be in a pickle with 3 claims running. But they have all been issued well after 14days from the date of the contravention, so technically as the keeper of the vehicle I am not liable. Am I right? I will raise another thread for those asap.

 

Once again thanks for your assistance. It's all much appreciated.

 

MC

[MoaningCrusader]

Hi Dx

 

I have spent my morning looking into everything in regards to this first BW Legal 'Letter of Claim'...

 

However I was hoping to spend a bit more time going through some of the other relevant threads that had come up on my initial search last week.

 

They now no longer appear to be on the site?

Have they been deleted?

 

I was hoping to see what standard case the BW Legal mob send in.

I assume they use a generic approach and wording to all court cases?

 

Here's my offering in regards to a snotty letter... Thoughts will be welcomed

 

COPIED TO NATIONAL CAR PARKS LTD

 

Dear BW Legal,

 

Re: PCN no XXXX

 

Thanks for your ‘Letter of Claim’ in regards to the above speculative invoice sent out without consideration to the codes of practice laid out by UK Law and your client’s own governing bodies.

 

You have clearly done little, to no research into the specifics surrounding the claim made against me, the registered keeper of the vehicle, in your letter. If you had done so, you would have discovered the driver did nothing wrong.

 

The greed of your clients has also placed them in a rather precarious legal position in regards to escalating costs. As supposedly professional solicitors, I would’ve thought you would have been familiar with the UK Government’s Code of Practice for your client, a private parking company, and advised your clients thus. Might I be so bold as to suggest a little homework for you all and refer you section 9 of the aforementioned Code of Practice.

 

I would suggest you contact your clients now and advise them to stop this course of action or be prepared for a costly experience in court. I will first be obtaining an unreasonable costs order under CPR 27.14(2)(g).

 

I really can’t say I look forward to hearing from you again.

 

Regards,

 

FTMDave

 

I am a little concerned to follow this course of action, as would it not include me admitting I was the driver? Can I pursue this course and still maintain my 'Registered Keeper' status?

[MoaningCrusader]

Hi Dx

 

My apologies, I was not referring to my 'snotty letter' in the above post to FTMDave. In fact my individual posts appear to have been merged?

 

That comment was directed at defending myself on the grounds of the ANPR & parking payment systems having failed to operate correctly. As per FTMDave's suggestion in a previous message quoted below.

 

"Apologies for my own maths.  I thought there were two earlier tickets and two later hotel car park tickets.  But I now realise there was only one earlier ticket.  So if I've got it right -

 

14/10     No payment taken     PCN issued

18/10     No payment taken     No PCN issued

20/10     You phone and try to sort things out with NCP

 

If this is right then there is further evidence that their technology was rubbish - on 18/10 not only did they not take the money but they didn't realise you were there and didn't issue a PCN!"

 

 

[MoaningCrusader]

My apologies for the quoting...

 

However as I was posting a number of different things I wanted to indicate who and what exactly they were directed at.

 

It was clearly necessary to do so as you yourself thought that I was referring to my snotty letter when i wasn't. I am trying to plan my defence with that particular question.

 

Thanks also for clarifying, but I am completely aware of where we are at right now with this all, and that I am not actually presenting a defence.

 

However, I am equally aware and anxious that I may well have to do so in the future.

 

My separate question in regards to using the phone call in my defence is that should I do so it, it involves me admitting I was the driver, does it not?

 

Because in the phone call recording I am technically discussing the the fact that I, not another person, was at the Gatwick drop off zone on the dates and times in question.

 

To be honest, I can't remember exactly what was said, so I guess we need to hope that they have not kept any recording of the conversation.

 

In regards, to the snotty letter i have composed, what are your thoughts?

 

And do you know what happened to the other threads that came up on the search 'BW + snotty + letter'?

 

Once again thanks for all your help so far.

[MoaningCrusader]

Yes they have.

 

To clarify... I am asking you all to read my snotty letter and give some feedback, before I send it.

 

If I don't hear any direct responses to it, I will assume that no-one has any problem with the contents of the letter I have drafted and I will post it to them recorded delivery.

 

FTMDave - I drafted my own version as I am not a fan of copy & paste approach to anything. I decided to go for a more acerbic approach as opposed out and out in your face piss take. As it's more me and I may have to stand by the words said in court.

 

Can you confirm I have covered what needs saying at this stage in the letter?

 

Many thanks

[MoaningCrusader]

Thank you Gick & FTMDave. All points have been taken on board.

 

I agree that the wording needs updated. I'll have another think.

 

Once again thanks. I do hope we don't have to go all the way. But I am digging in here and preparing for the worst, so I look forward to your help in building the best researched and strongest defence I can.

[MoaningCrusader]

Hi Everyone... Here's what I consider my final draft...

 

I will get this sent as instructed first thing Monday morning.

 

COPIED TO NATIONAL CAR PARKS LTD

 

Re: PCN Ref XXX

 

Dear BW Legal,

 

Thank you for your rather laughable ‘Letter of Claim’ regarding the above speculative invoice sent out without consideration to the current codes of practice laid out by UK Law and your client’s own governing bodies.

  

The greed of your clients has also placed them in a rather precarious legal position regarding costs. As supposedly professional solicitors, I would’ve thought you are familiar with the UK Government’s Code of Practice for your client, a private parking company, and advised them thus. Might I be so bold as to suggest a little homework for you all and refer you to section 9 of the aforementioned Code of Practice.

 

I would suggest you contact your clients immediately and advise them to stop this bullying course of action or be prepared for a costly experience in court. I will first be seeking an unreasonable costs order under CPR 27.14(2)(g). After this, as you have clearly done little, to no research into the specifics surrounding the claim made against myself, the registered keeper of the vehicle, I will look forward to clarifying them and the procedural short fallings of your client, while seeking the awarding of the associated costs of doing so in a court. 

 

I really can’t say I look forward to hearing from you again.

 

Regards,

[MoaningCrusader]

Thanks all for taking your time to respond to my draft.

 

I have taken all your points on board, but I do feel there's a balance. As FTMDave says, it doesn't really matter what type of response you send at this stage as there's no guarantee either will get them to change their minds. Let's face it as LFI says, they will profit from a court a case more than any of us, no matter what is said and done.

 

As I said before, I want to send something that should it be submitted in a court that I would be happy to stand by. I feel I have made it perfectly clear that I have no respect for their actions in my own words without giving away too much of what my defence will be, which is most important.

 

I will send this off and share any response I get. I hope to also be able to use my experience with all of this to help other drivers who approach this group, as your advice has been invaluable so far.

 

FTMDave - I will look into the SAR once I am back from work travels next week. I am not entirely clear on what that is exactly and how it all works. So I may contact you for clarity once I have read up on it.

 

Once again, thank you all!

 

 

[MoaningCrusader]

Hi Guys,

 

I have now received a response from BW Legal to my letter. See attached letter. I feel we are now back to where we started. No threat of court, just another round of letters to come from these idiots.

 

Apparently, NCP have given up on the case and handed to BW Legal (who I assume are a related company?)

 

I am leaving them believing they have me on the new codes of practice not actually being enforced yet and keeping my evidence in regards to their faulty system, and NCP issuing of the PCN outside of POFA rules for private parking notices to keeper, until any court action, as clearly they have no clue what they are at.

 

Sorry, I was away on holiday end May/early June. But would like to now look at SAR as well. Or is it too late?

BWLegalResponsetoLetterBeforeClaimJune22.pdf

[MoaningCrusader]

Thanks FTMDave. I thought as much. If anything the whole thing has technically de-escalated... As we are back to square one.

 

I'll look at the SAR on Monday and get it submitted. And I'll keep this thread updated of any developments

[MoaningCrusader]

Hi Guys,

 

I am afraid to say I received a Claim Form from the County Court Business Centre in Northampton (issue date 28th July).

 

I will now have to prepare and present my defence. Any guidance from here will be much appreciated. I am at work today & away tomorrow. But will aim to prepare a bullet point defence on Tuesday afternoon to work from. Will I need to supply evidence at this stage, or just the basics of my defence?

 

Any pointers on what I need to do before then will be welcomed. If you look through this thread I feel I have strong evidence that the NCP systems were not working and despite my attempts to pay their system failed. 

 

 

 

[MoaningCrusader]

Hi FTM Dave,

 

I am just about to do the acknowledgement of service online to buy me the extra time.

 

I did not complete a SAR NCP as I got a bit confused by what I was actually meant to write to them about. I will look at it again today and get that all off this afternoon.

 

I did get supplied with a load of evidence documents from BW Legal/NCP with their Letter of Claim. How much more info I am looking for from them.

 

Sticky on it's way.

 

 

 

I have filled in the Sticky below and will continue to read the related threads now

 

Which Court have you received the claim from ?

CCBC, 4th Floor St Katherine's House, 21-27 St Katherine's St., Northampton, NN1 2LH

 

Name of the Claimant : NCP Ltd., Saffron Court, 14B St Cross Street, London, EC1N 8XA

 

Claimants Solicitors: BW Legal, Enterprise House, 1 Apex View, Leeds, LS11 9BH

 

Date of issue – 28 July 2022

 

Date for AOS - Monday 15th August 2022

 

Date to submit Defence - Sunday 29th August 2022 (33days from and including the 28th July)

 

What is the claim for –

 

1. The Claimant's (C) Claim is for the sum of £105.74 in respect of a Parking Charge Notice (PCN) payable by the Defendant (D) to C.

 

2.On the 14/10/2021, the driver of a vehicle, registration ******, breached C's terms and conditions of parking at Gatwick Airport North Terminal Drop Off RH60NP which is managed and operated by C.

 

3.The PCN was issued for : No Payment. The terms and conditions were displayed on signage in situ and, D, as the driver and/or the registered keeper of the vehicle is liable to pay the PCN.

 

4. The claim also includes Statutory Interest pursuant to s.69 of the County Courts Act 1984 being an amount of £5.74 (calculated at a rate of 8%n p.a at a daily of £0.02 from 14/10/2021 to 27/07/2022). C also claims £60.00 debt recovery costs as set out in the terms and conditions and in C's ATA AoS Code of Practice.

 

What is the value of the claim? £250.74

 

Amount Claimed: £165.74

court fees: £35

legal rep fees £50

Total Amount £250.74

 

Plse find attached to this post the form minus any of my personal details 

 

NCPN1ClaimForm28-07-22.pdf

 

Hi Guys,

 

I have now drafted a CPR letter to BW Legal. Is there anything further that you think I should add to it, having seen the Particulars of Claim on the N1 form?

 

I will not upload this letter as it has been noted that it should not be shared on threads, but I have edited as instructed and inputted the particular details of the claimant's etc and defendant's details.

 

I will await your approval to send the basic template once you have had a chance to look over the above info I have supplied.

 

FTMDave, 

 

When do I seek to obtain the unreasonable costs order?

 

[MoaningCrusader]

Thanks Dx. I will do.

 

Is it still worth me requesting SAR at this stage. I never did it before. I was a little confused on what I was asking for exactly.

 

If it's still worth it, I will try and get to grips with it tonight and get that all off as well.

[MoaningCrusader]

OK FTMDave. I will start that now. just to have it on file for court.

 

But as dx100 has said it will all come out the witness statements from them anyway now.

 

Ok. I have sent the CPR to BW Legal.

 

I have sent off a SAR with an bank letter for ID to NCP anyway, as I quite like the idea of them having to do some admin! As I am now having to do a lot more myself. I also have 2 other PCNs running so any further info that arrives, even if too late for my defence submission on this one it could prove handy.

 

Is there any reason why I shouldn't send a SAR to BW Legal just to make them do something extra?

 

Thanks guys for the help today. I haven't had a chance to bullet point my defence yet. I will do so, and would appreciate what is the stronger elements in it. Is there not a good reason to simply focus on the fact that the PCN is not POFA compatible and therefore as the registered keeper they have no right to pursue me... End of?

 

I can then add in the more generic defence after this and the witness statements of my family watching me make the payment therefore putting forward the case that their APNR and processing systems were not operating up to a reasonable standard.

 

What in your opinion is the strongest position to take?

 

 

[MoaningCrusader]

And for the benefit of anyone else who is reading this thread and looking at submitting a SAR using the template on the sticky. You need to click on the expand for the template to appear.

 

The confusion I was getting, was all this detailed info about SAR and GDPR but no template appeared to be present on the sticky. Leaving me a little lost as to what I was meant to write or request. I finally spotted the there was an 'expand' to be clicked on the relevant post on the sticky. And there it is! It took me 4 attempts to spot it!

 

As Dx100 points out it's just a question of putting 2 addresses a P,CN Number for ref, some ID verification to prove name and address (council tax bill or bank statement without any unnecessary details showing) and if you want specific dates.