WWW.247MONEY.COM Finance - Serious fault with used car after only 3 months of ownership

[MRMH01]

Hello, hope you’re all well.

 

We purchased a 2012 BMW 5 series with 95k miles on the clock around 3 months ago (end of July). Everything has been good with the car, until I noticed a noise coming from the engine bay when parked next to another vehicle (with the windows down). 

 

I opened the bonnet to locate the noise (a metallic rattling sound, almost like someone is playing a tambourine) at the rear of the engine. From further research and collecting several videos of the noise and sending them to various BMW specialists, the issue would appear (without having a formal diagnosis done) to be with the timing chain (apparently a common issue on the 2.0 diesel (N47 engines), the common consensus is that the timing chain guides are worn, and if not rectified would likely cause the chain to fail. 

 

My issues are as follows;

 

• I’ve stopped using the vehicle because there’s a real risk that the timing chain could fail, causing the engine to be destroyed, at which point I likely wouldn’t have a claim.

 

• To have the problem diagnosed would likely cost hundreds of pounds because it requires the engine to be removed from the car to access the timing chain. I don’t see why I should have to foot this cost. So how should I go around exercising my rights under the Consumer Rights Act 2015 with respect to having this problem diagnosed at the dealers cost? I appreciate the problem will likely exceed £1,300 to repair, and that the dealer is probably not going to want to pay this. 

 

• The car is on hire purchase, and technically doesn’t belong to us, what rights do we have if the dealer doesn’t play ball? If we were to seek a repair and this gets refused, do we then reject the vehicle and hand it back to the finance company? We contacted the dealer last week who still hasn’t replied to us. We were very polite and reported the issue asking for help, they’re a highly recommended and highly rated small car dealership.

 

I’m presuming our next steps should be to stop using the car, notify the finance company that there’s a major issue with the car? We would rather not have to reject the car, however this issue clearly needs to be addressed asap, and if no party want to accept responsibility, I’m presuming we look to reject the vehicle?

 

Many thanks for your help. 

[dx100uk]

Hit the finance company ...who are? Its not your car.

 

You are within 6 mts so its their job in conjunction with the dealer to investigate . Its also their option going forward if it repair/refund/replace. Forget any warranty...totally worthless

[BankFodder]

How much did you pay for the car?
Who are the dealers?
And as you have already been asked – who is the finance company?

Yes you should certainly stand on your rights under the consumer rights act but we need a bit more detail

[MRMH01]

Car cost us £7,995 (was high specification compared to other 520d’s), we paid zero deposit purely because it wouldn’t have dented the monthly payment much, finance company is 247 Money (tailored towards those with no credit history to some negative history). 
 

Dealer I’m keeping anonymous for the time being, they have an excellent reputation on social media and review websites so I’m hopeful they’ll pull through, of course this will all change if I make no progress, hope you don’t mind this. 
 

If I approach the finance company tomorrow and state the issue, because I don’t have a formal diagnosis of the issue, if they want to problem diagnosed, how would I be best off going about this?
 

A visit to any specialist or main BMW dealer will likely see me needing to part with hundreds of pounds simply to get the fault diagnosed. The car has a full BMW service history and I honestly thought the timing chain issue affected older BMW 2.0L models. 

[dx100uk]

diagnosis it not your problem

< 6mts since purchase

 

 

[BankFodder]

The fact that 

247money.com

WWW.247MONEY.COM

 deal with people who have poor or negative credit records doesn't bode well.

You are wrong not to name the dealer. It will help others and you might find out more about how this dealer works if other people who might have been similarly affected find that this is being discussed on the Internet.
I notice that you have already contacted the dealer about this last week and you had no reply. I would have thought that a really good dealer with a proper customer-facing approach would have responded immediately. And yet you are already shielding them.

You should start off by writing to the finance company and copy to the dealer and put them on notice that the car that they sold you three months ago has started to demonstrate a serious defect and therefore it is clearly not of satisfactory quality and even if it was satisfactory quality at the time of sale it has not remained in that condition for a reasonable period of time.

Therefore as you are within six months of the date of purchase, you are asserting your rights under the Consumer Rights Act 2015 and you are providing them with a single opportunity to repair the vehicle failing which you will want a full refund.
Inform also that if you incur any ancillary losses you will be looking for them to reimburse you those as well.

 

Point out that you have sent a copy of the letter to the dealership and you require them to enter into discussions with each other to discuss whether or not they going to repair the vehicle, or declined to repair it in which case you want to know what arrangements will be made to refund you your money and to remove the vehicle from your property.

This may seem like a very strident tone to take in a first letter but I think you need to make your position clear and they need to understand from the outset that you won't accept any nonsense and that you have taken control of the problem and you will not cede control to them.

If you want you can post up a copy of the letter that you are going to sent here so we can check it.

Send the letter by email and also by recorded delivery to both parties

 

[BankFodder]

Incidentally, once you have sent this letter if you don't get a response within seven days then come back here because we will then help you ramp it up – and maybe by that time you'll be prepared to tell us who the dealer is

[MRMH01]

Many thanks for your replies.

 

We went with them as the interest rate payable wasn’t bad given our financial backgrounds, our previous car was a lease vehicle that I had since new which went back in September due to the lease period expiring, hence why we ended up financing something larger (the lease car was a Seat Leon which was somewhat smaller), the monthly payments on the 520d are less than our previous lease, so it made sense to continue with the finance. 

 

I shall get a letter drafted up and sent off to both the finance company and car dealership (will send via recorded delivery), I’ll also send a copy via email. 

 

I just wanted to give the dealer ample opportunity to sort this out before naming them, so I can say I tried my hardest to be fair with them. If I hear nothing within 7 days then I’ll name them here. 

Edited November 16, 2021 by dx100uk
formatting

[MRMH01]

Just a quick update.

247 money called and have instructed the dealer to “inspect and repair the defects as required under the Consumer Rights Act 2015”, their words not mine, however they’re communicating with the dealer.

 

How does rejection work if things don’t go to plan?

The car is owned by the finance company, so in the instance of rejection, I’m presuming we notify both the dealer and finance company and make the vehicle available for collection to the finance company? I’m honestly hoping we don’t need to reject the car though. 

 

Finance company are currently very supportive of our situation. I took the car for another inspection at another garage who have mentioned the same thing, timing chain guides are likely excessively worn (a BMW defect that plagues the N47 series engine), and that the Dual Mass Flywheel is worn causing noise when accelerating through the gears (most noticeable in 4th gear). 

 

Total cost for work is probably around £2.5k to £3k (DMF can be done when the chain is done because the engine comes apart from the gearbox when doing this job), I sense the dealership is probably not going to play ball here due to the cost. 

 

My other concern is,

is what if the dealer takes the car to some third party garage that they’re “pals” with in the trade, and they claim there’s nothing wrong with the car?

 

Am I best getting some kind of written report from either BMW or a BMW specialist to note the problems? 

Edited November 23, 2021 by dx100uk
spacing

[BankFodder]

It would certainly be a good idea to get an independent assessment so that you have got some solid evidence in case the dealership causes problems as you are suggesting.
Also you should ascertain a timescale for addressing this problem.

I would suggest that you write to the finance company and copy to the dealership, tell them what is your maximum acceptable timescale for the repair of the problem and the return of the car to you. I think 10 days more than adequate – but it's up to you.

Also let them know that once the car has been returned to you you will be taking it for an independent assessment in order to gauge the quality of the work. Also you will be asking for a detailed explanation of the work which has been carried out and the parts which have been used.

[MRMH01]

Thank you for your replies so far. 
Just a quick update.

Finance company has arranged inspection/repair with the dealership, however they want to me to find a garage that will work on the vehicle and send them the quotation for work and depending on the quote, depends on the next steps. 

The terms are it has to be a small VAT registered garage, having approached 4 garages in my local area, all 4 have said that they will not undertake the work, mainly due to space issues (because it’s an engine out job). I maintain that it’s a job for a specialist or a BMW dealer to undertake, if the quotation for work is too expensive then further options will be explored (their words not mine), I’m not sure what arbitrary figure they’re working on though.  

I’m going to message them today and explain that no small garage I’ve approached will touch this job, either the garages are too busy and booked up into February, they don’t have room, it’s not a job they do, it’s just an annoyance having to write emails and chase up garages for quotes, if they’re going to impose terms then I’m going to ask that they arrange the work, not me, the CRA 2015 specifically states that a repair should be done with the least inconvenience to the consumer also. 
 

I’m grateful that they’re assisting, however it’s me who’s having to do all the leg work.

Should I give them a time scale of 2 weeks to get work underway, otherwise we’ll reject the vehicle?

I can see the dealer taking the car back personally over having to pay a 4 figure sum for a repair. 

[BankFodder]

I think you are completely right.

 

They should be doing it and you are absolutely correct to give them a two week deadline.

 

That is more than reasonable

[MRMH01]

Hello, hope you’re all well and looking forward to Christmas. I haven’t written anything further here because there’s been nothing worth noting until recently. 

 

I’ll try to keep it brief. 

 

So far;

 

• Fault occurred with car on finance a few months after purchase, we notified dealership and finance company that we want a repair as per s.23 of the Consumer Rights Act 2015.

 

• Finance company offered a 50/50 contribution with the dealer for a repair, the only terms are that I find a garage, said garage is VAT registered, said garage must not be a main BMW dealer or BMW specialist. Whilst it’s not for me to arrange the repair, I thought I’d try to help.

 

• I’ve approached around 10 local garages (within 30 minutes driving time of me), all of which have essentially refused the job (because it’s an engine out job with around 20 hours of labour). 

 

• I contacted finance company on Wednesday to state that I had been unsuccessful in finding a garage, and asked that they search and arrange the repair with the dealer (as per s.23). 

 

• I received what can only be the most passive aggressive email possible, basically stating they’re doing it as a good will gesture, and that because I’m away with family in the Czech Republic until January 3rd, that they’re unsure whether the dealer will contribute, even though they’ve had a month to arrange a repair at this point. Car is still on driveway at home and should they arrange a repair the car can be driven to any garage by a family member who will be insured to drive the car etc.

 

• I’ve replied essentially stating that the Consumer Rights Act supersedes any “good will gesture”,  I’ve also noted that I’ve used another car at my own expense, using my own fuel in my own time to try and get a garage to take on the work (which I’m not required to do but did so to try and help everyone out). I’ve asked that they arrange the repair, otherwise I will have no choice other than to reject the vehicle as “not fit for purpose”, “not as described” and “not of a satisfactory quality”. The finance company also tried to allege that a timing chain failure is “wear and tear”, which of course is nonsense because timing chains in the F10 520d are made to last the life of the engine (there is no service period or inspection period for this component in any of the BMW service books/schedules). I understand that timing chain failure is common across the N47 series of Diesel engine due to poorly designed timing chain guides that are made from plastic. 

 

Would I be best rejecting the vehicle at this point? I’m no further to a repair then I was 1 month ago. I also find it strange how the finance company is communicating throughout and the dealership is not. 

 

Many thanks for your time as always! 

[dx100uk]

Imho yes reject it, the then youll have to sue for your expenses??

 

Dx

[MRMH01]

Many thanks for your quick response. 

 

My expenses at this point are negligible, it’s more the time I’ve spent trying to communicate with garages and drive the car to be looked at by mechanics (who have essentially diagnosed the issue as a timing chain guide issue, it’s not unusual for the guides to be broke when they’re making the noise this car is, at which point the engine is literally ticking time bomb). 

 

This really is a specialist job that would require a main dealer or BMW specialist, however the finance company doesn’t want me using any of these (which I guess they’re trying to get the work done for as cheap as possible), it would’ve been booked in and repaired if I could use a main dealer for the work, at this point it’s just unnecessary hassle. 

 

If I reject, am I correct in sending an email/letter to the finance company (who are the legal owner) or the dealership (who are the retailer)? I was unsure whether my case would be more with the finance company as a hirer of the vehicle versus the dealer who supplied the car to the finance company. It’s incredible how quickly the attitude of the finance company changed when I asked them to arrange the repair. 

 

[MRMH01]

Happy new year everyone! 

 

No further updates, have given the finance company until tomorrow to arrange a repair a few weeks back. No emails, no letters, just one attempt to call on the phone which we declined purely because everything needs to be in writing (in my opinion) and I said to correspond in writing only. 

 

As the deadline is tomorrow and direct debit is due to go on the 4th, should I write to them tomorrow morning rejecting the vehicle, and cancel the direct debit immediately? We’ve had no use of the car for at least the last 6 weeks incase it got worse, so I digress having to pay another payment when I’m going to fight for a refund. 

 

Genuinely disappointed they haven’t tried to get a repair arranged, I’ve given them nearly 2 months. 

[BankFodder]

Don't cancel the direct debit. One thing these people will do is that they will launch into debt collection mode and smash up your credit file and blight your financial life for six years and although they will be in the wrong, it will be difficult to undo.

Let them take the money back in your letter of claim make it clear to them that any money they take is part of the dispute and you will be recovering it plus interest.

[BankFodder]

Do you mean to say that you haven't already rejected the vehicle? Have you not written to them and assert your rights under the consumer rights act and given them a single opportunity to repair failing which the vehicle is rejected?

[MRMH01]

Does the HP agreement become null and void (in a sense) when the vehicle is rejected?

I don’t mind taking a hit on my credit files temporarily if I can complain to the FOS and have the matter overruled (I.e HP agreement terminated, refund of HP payments, removal from credit file). 

 

I haven’t rejected it purely on the basis I wanted to demonstrate reasonableness on my behalf, as opposed going directly for the jugular (if that makes sense), there’s no way the finance company can argue unreasonableness when I’ve afforded them 8 weeks to arrange a repair.

 

Tomorrow is the deadline whereby I’ll reject the car and ask for a full refund of all paid HP payments, do you recommend signing the V5 over to the finance company? 

Edited January 2, 2022 by dx100uk
spacing

[BankFodder]

You want to demonstrate reasonableness – sorry but that will simply be taken for weakness and also it will be taken advantage of.

You should have had the letter of rejection in by now – much earlier and it might have given them pause for thought.

You not helping yourself – especially when you come here for advice and we give you advice and then you go your own way.

Reasonableness or unreasonableness is not something that is contemplated in the consumer rights act. Nor is it contemplated in the consumer credit act.

I simply suggest that you follow our advice and send the letter which should be that you are asserting your right under the consumer rights act and you are giving them a single opportunity to repair and if they fail to do so or if they declined then you are rejecting the vehicle.

I hope you can see that you have had to go back a step because you haven't actually stated that under the consumer rights act you are giving them an opportunity to repair.

If you've got their email address then if I were you I'd send it off straight away now. Why bother to wait till tomorrow – which is a bank holiday anyway.

Once you have got them to accept that the contract is void, then yes, the hire purchase agreement will be voided as well – except that deductions will be made because of the use that you have had of the vehicle – which is six months use so far.  If you had sent the letter in November then it would only be four months – and you would have saved yourself two months money.
It's not relevant that the car has been off the road – I'm afraid that that will be seen as your choice – which of course it was.

 

[MRMH01]

 

In my initial email sent to them nearly 8 weeks ago I requested that they have the car repaired in accordance with s.23 of the Consumer Rights Act 2015, this was also sent to the dealership. I’ve exercised my right clearly that I want the vehicle repaired (as rejection wasn’t possible due to being outside of the 30 day limit), I made it clear that this is a request under the Consumer Rights Act 2015, apologies if that wasn’t clear. 

 

In my last correspondence I simply requested that they repair the car (again), and explained that if they failed to do so, I will exercise my right to reject on the basis they’re refusing to put right the defects that exist with the vehicle, and tomorrow I will formally reject the vehicle. 

 

They’ve had 8 weeks to arrange a repair on the vehicle, contrary to s.23 which makes it clear a repair must be of the “least inconvenience to the consumer”. 

 

I couldn’t reject the car in November because the right to reject wasn’t available to me due to being over the 30 day period, I exercised my right to a repair in which they have failed to undertake. 

[BankFodder]

Okay I hadn't understood – but the right to reject was available to you simply accompanied by an invitation to them to attempt a repair.

In that case you should send them a letter now confirming that they've had the chance, they have either failed or declined a repair and you are now rejecting the vehicle.

If you are prepared to bring a legal action then frankly I would put it all into a letter of claim and give them 14 days. However, you should stick by your deadline and I think that you've done enough fairness and reasonableness now.
If you are happy with this approach then post up a draft letter of claim so we can have a look. Keep it scant.

Open an account with the County Court money claim website and start preparing your claim and post your draft particulars here.

And presumably you still want to protect the dealer

[BankFodder]

You might also want to look at the COBS rules. The finance company has a statutory duty to treat you fairly and it seems they aren't doing that.

I think it will add a little edge to your letter of claim if you also say that you are going to sue them for breach of statutory duty – breach of their obligations under FCA rules.
They won't like that.
They may even feel that you aren't acting fairly or reasonably.

[MRMH01]

Just a quick update.

 

• Rejected the vehicle in Dec 2021.

 

• No response from 247Money until mid January 2022, telling me to stop quoting the Consumer Rights Act 2015, and that the rejection was refused. 

 

• Cancelled the direct debt in Jan 2022, the vehicle is clearly an integral part of the agreement and therefore rejection of the vehicle means the product/asset/collateral under the agreement is no longer being provided. Will not pay any more towards this vehicle that sits on my driveway unused due to a timing chain fault (just imagine if I used it and the chain snapped, the liability would fall on me). I absolutely will not pay anymore towards this vehicle that has a huge list of defects. 

 

• Default notice served on the 7th February 2022 giving until the 28th February 2022 to repay the amount due under the agreement. 

 

• Final response sent (but never received), opened a dispute with the Financial Ombudsman Service. 

 

I’m presuming they’ll default the agreement and repossess the vehicle (which would actually be doing us a favour), less than 1/3rd paid so they have the right to repossess without a court order (will gladly hand the keys over). 

 

Any thoughts on what to do next? 

[BankFodder]

I don't think there is any further advice we can give you.

You came here and gave a certain facts and we gave you certain advice.

You appear to have gone your own way anyway and now that you've opened up a dispute with the FOS, then I suppose you should wait for the outcome of their investigation – although you aren't bound to but it will certainly take quite a long time.
Glad to see that you are still protecting the reputation of the dealer. I'm sure they admire the loyalty.

I actually went and told the dealer that you were refusing to disclose identity on this forum and they laughed.