Purchasing a pedigree dog - the Law

[gemspan]

Hi there

 

I work with dogs and have my own dogs that are pets but also work and I was planning to start to show.

 

My friend used her dog as a stud and I decided to buy one of the puppies because the litter (on paper!) seemed to be top class. The folks were charging £1000 for the puppies. The dogs are a rare breed and I already own one at the moment.

 

Anyway, to cut a long story short, the breeders had never bred a litter before and they were very inexperienced. My friend only agreed to let them use her dog if she could give backup, advice and generally oversee the whole process. They agreed to this. It turns out that the people were not 100% honest with my friend and we have since found out that the couple actually did not pay for the bitch and she was "given" to them on breeding terms by the original owner. They had nothing in writing so they went ahead and bred the dog without the consent of the original owner. This is not good!!! My friend did not know this until the litter was born and the original owner started shouting about it. It was sorted out by a lot of negotiation with my friend and the original owner but the folks who bred the dog were still charging £1000 per puppy. The bitch had 7 pups; they were keeping a dog; their daughter was having a bitch; there was the stud fee of one puppy; my puppy; another show pup and 2 puppies that had overshot jaws that went to pet homes - vetted by my friend!!!

 

At the time I was waiting for a remortgage to come through and I agreed wth the couple that I would pay when this came through. The remortgage fell through and I then agreed to pay for the pup in installments.

 

However, my friend and I collected our puppies at 7.5weeks and I was looking after her puppy for a week. The following day one of the pups became very ill and my puppy had severe runs! I ended up having to take the pup to the vet at 11.30 at night; the pup was at death's door with an infection. Later that week my pup got the same infection and had to be rushed to the vet. My friend told the couple that I should not have to pay the full amount for this pup (she didn't thing they should be charging that amount anyway as it makes the dog a commodity!) and suggested a substantial reduction. They agreed to reduce the price by £200. However, I had already paid £100 in vets bills - not to mention special diets etc.,

 

To cut a long story short, my pup has never been very well and I always wondered why. She had peculiar habits and didnt seem to be thriving like I would have wanted her to. She was always fed on the best of food and I have experience of bringing up puppies so I am not a novice. Somebody who didnot know this breed perhaps would not have noticed the lack of development but to me it was very obvious. It got to the stage when she was 4 months old that she was very very skinny and I was very concerned. I contacted my friend and took the dog to the vet. She was suffering from food malabsorption which meant the food she was eating was not giving her nourishment and it was going right through her. I then had to pay vets bills for medicine, had to put her on a special diet and feed her every 3 hours.

 

The cost of the puppy was £1000; I got £200 knocked off because of the original illness and I have paid £300. Effectively I have paid for half of the cost.

 

The guy sent me a DVD of all the puppies and everything then started fitting into place. My pup was born dead and should have been supplemented with additional milk etc., during the first weeks. The couple had the pups on 3 meals a day at 6 weeks; puppies should be on 4 meals until they are 4 months. The DVD showed them fighting over food and no extra food being given. The food they were given was like "slop" and was a mixture of all sorts and included tripe. This was for puppies of 6 weeks old. My pup's bad habits were also confirmed in their origin. Children pestering the puppies and only letting go when the pups growled. Hence th behaviour was learned. Also being able to pee and poo all over the place as they had no area sectioned off. They were also allowed to eat plants in the garden; play with polythene bags etc., I was absolutely horrified but it made me realise the source of all my puppy's problems.

 

What is the law on purchasing a dog? Do I have the same consumer rights as if I had bought, say a washing machine? It is very difficult because you become attached to the dog and now I have worked hard to get her to full fitness but this has not been without worry and expense. I reckon I have paid in excess of £300 on vets bills and special diets. This doesnt even bring into to equation the damage to various household items because the puppy has been so hard to housetrain, nor the time spent on re-training her out of the learned behaviours ie growling etc.,

 

The jury is out on whether she will be a show dog and this is the sole reason I bought her. I also paid £1000 for a show dog and really I have not had the quality that I would have expected.

 

To add insult to injury they put my name on all the puppy contracts as being the behaviourist if they had problems with their pups throughout their lives. What a cheek!!! I have to say they didnt ask me if they could do this nor did they offer me payment for this.

 

I look forward to hearing what others think. I am absolutely at a loss as to what to do. One part of me wants to fight for the costs of the vets bills etc, and the other just wants to leave it because I am now attached to the puppy.

 

Thanks a lot

Annie

[chesham]

In the eyes of the law, a dog (specifically) is classed as property, so if you were to purchase a dog, it would be the same as buying property. Interestingly enough, if you were to intentionally kill or maim a dog, it is classed as criminal damage!

 

You would have a case, as you were mis sold the dog into which you had an agreement to buy. However, as strange as this sounds because it is a dog, the Sale of Goods Act provides the maxim of caveat empor, which means 'buyer beware'. Because the people you were buying from were not classed as a 'vendor' i.e. acting in the course of a business to which you as a party were a consumer, then the responsibility to make sure that you got what you were told you were getting lies with you. However, this is only a small part and the test to this is reasonable and because of the nature of the transaction (pedigree animals) I don't think it is unreasonable for you to know that the dog is not what it is cracked up to be either by looking at it or by having it for 5 minutes.

 

The couple you got the dog from really are not fit to have a dog, let alone breed them. They should be strung up. End of story.

 

I'm glad your story did have a happy ending though. Being a dog lover with 5 of my own, I sympathise with the runied house and the house training that you have to go through, without the added illnesses and trips to the vet.

 

However, in principle, the fact you bought a dog as per it's description and that is not what you received is a breach of contract - after all, they got the money and you got the dog so a valid contract exists. However, the practicalities of it makes it more difficult. In civil cases, you need to present evidence that you were described something and received something else - difficult to do if it's not in writing. However, just because you may not have anything in writing doesn't mean it's dead and over - it is still there, just more difficult to prove.

 

Good luck!

[graeme1970]

annie i would let it go and enjoy your puppy for what it is, part of your familly, i have been around dogs and dog breeding for years and would not entertain the idea of purchasing from an inexperienced breeder. you should know that there are no guarantees in wether a pup will become a good candidate for a show dog. you bought the pup as a pedigree (insert breed), as long as it is a pedigree (insert breed) then i dont see how it could be classed as not as described

good luck with your pooch

graeme

[chesham]

Under the Sale of Goods Act, it wouldn't be fit for the purpose intended - so long as they were aware what purpose you wanted the dog for (as well as being a pet).

[graeme1970]

its not possible to know if a pup born is going to be a good show dog, therfoe "fit for purpose" doesnt apply. can have all the good breeding behind it and still never make a show dog, simialr with working dogs, just cause it comes from familly of good working dogs does not mean that it would itself be good working dog

graeme

[demon_x_slash]

I would post a copy of that DVD to not only the RSPCA, but the kennel club dealing with that particular breed. If they are registered, or attempt to register, the club will know how they treat their puppies when they're helpless and malleable.

 

That DVD, IMHO, is priceless evidence that the owners were not only neglectful (whether intentional or not, it's still neglect; it caused your puppy, and probably the others, serious medical and behavioural difficulties), but were also not training the puppies to the expected standard. As I see it, showdogs have to be well-trained, from toilet training (because you can't have it going on the judge) to being very used to, and friendly towards, lots of different people, as it gets pulled about a bit and felt all over, etc. Their kids 'pestering' the pups and ultimately teaching them to be aggressive is obviously a no-no.

 

If I was in your position I would write off the vets bills etc. - you're attached to the pup, and anyone with an animal can understand that something that is completely dependent on you will ingratiate its little puppy self into your heart. I would go down the route of trying to make sure that these people never breed anything ever again. Do you have any way to contact anyone that they've sold pups to in the past? Maybe even this litter? Further evidence of malnutrition and behavioural problems in the other pups may strengthen your case with the RSPCA/Kennel Club.

 

Keep on top of the RSPCA if you do contact them. I reported a pet shop for appalling conditions a month ago now, and asked for a standard 'ring-back' with an update. Nothing yet; went in to the High Street yesterday and the shop's still trading. Got to ring them again this week to ask whether they inspected it or not...

 

Incidentally, I'm dying to know which breed you show

[demon_x_slash]

its not possible to know if a pup born is going to be a good show dog, therfoe "fit for purpose" doesnt apply. can have all the good breeding behind it and still never make a show dog, simialr with working dogs, just cause it comes from familly of good working dogs does not mean that it would itself be good working dog

graeme

 

No, but as I said, the more serious implications of this are the malnutrition and medical factors. If the pups had to fight to get enough food, were bullied into becoming growlers, were not supervised when in the garden (were any of those plants recognisable as harmful to animals, btw, gemspan? Ivy or nightshade etc.), then these people are guilty of neglect, intentional or not. The problems with it being a show dog are not because of its innate qualities; who knows what sort of a dog it would have grown up to be if these people had treated it properly, with the level of skill and care that all breeders, let alone pedigree breeders, should have? Malnutrition will affect bone structure, muscle growth, organ health, eyesight, literally everything you can think of - how can she expect the pup to grow to be an acceptable show dog if it's had such a poor start in life? As gemspan said, the dog is sickly and too thin, and suffers from varied medical problems - her friend's pup had exactly the same problems, so it can be reasonably inferred that their condition is due to their poor treatment at a young age.

[rosiecotton]

If it's in a state now with bad habits such as growling etc, you could almost argue that it's not even fit for purpose as a family pet...

[chesham]

I was going to put in what Demon said reference sending the DVD to the RSPCA but held back..now that it's been said, I agree!

[trundlecat]

Sorry I can’t be of more help but wanted to empathise as I’ve been through a similar experience with a Persian Cat. Due to an inexperienced breeder, inappropriate care & outright cruelty during her first few months we were left with a cat who:

 

1. Would not be groomed. 3 times a year she had to be anaesthetised & shaved by a vet.

2. Constant bowel problems & lifelong medication.

3. Out right refusal to use a litter tray or defecate outside the house.

4. Treacherous Cat Syndrome (vicious attacks should you try & pet or handle her).

 

We were unable to do anything but report the breeder & make the 10 years with the cat as bearable & happy for her as possible. Re homing wasn’t an option as I honestly wouldn’t have wished her on my worst enemy. The only other alternative was to have her put down which I just couldn’t do. I feel ashamed to say I was relieved when she passed away although in a funny sort of way I did miss her.

 

Very sorry you’re in the situation you are. The breeders (I use the word loosely) should be banned from keeping animals.

 

TC

[gemspan]

Wow, thank you all so much for your replies. They are very much appreciated.

 

I'd just like to say that I have never shown a dog before. My dogs (I have 5!) are 2 rescue collies, a working cocker, a Bracco Italiano (not show dog!) and now I have my puppy that I bought specifically as a show dog. My friend does a lot of showing and she picked the puppies. I know that you can never tell if a dog is going to be a good working dog or show dog but, generally speaking, if you have good breeding behind your lines you do have a good chance of achieving a dog that is fit for purpose. Having said that, my dogs are first and foremost pets - all very spoiled and all very much part of my family and much loved. I would not have purchased this puppy had I not decided to venture into the show ring. I already had 4 dogs and I really didn't need another!!! However, none of my dogs were suitable to show so I had to pay the money to get a show quality dog. THe couple actually made us come down and pick the pups at 7.5 weeks because they said one of them was going into hospital. My friend would never want to pick a pup at that age because they are just too young. 9 weeks to 12 weeks gives you the best possible chance. However, we had no option. The mother was lovely, with a lovely temperament and her dad is the top dog in the UK at the moment and father to my other dog; she has a nature to die for.

 

I have no problem really with the behaviour side of things because I have a lot of experience with rescue dogs and have a qualification in dog behaviour, but it has been very very hard work getting her to understand that actually being handled is a nice thing and nice things happen when people touch you. She still wont let me touch her feet or legs though and the growling starts then!!! I will get it sorted though. She is in the best hands for her temperament as she is around lots of lovely, well mannered dogs who are a good influence on her.

 

My worry is that they will ask for her back. I have paid £500 of the £1000. The money that would have been spent on her purchase has been going on her vet care and special diets. I have been having to feed her chicken breast, goats milk, lambs milk, special veterinary diets etc., to build her up. I am happy now that she is what she should be but when I first got her she was very very skinny and never seemed to put on weight no matter how hard I tried. The vet diagnosed the food malabsorbption and I am convinced that it all stems from her bad start in life. It could even be from eating poisonous plants. You just dont know!!!!

 

The couple kept a dog and their daughter has a bitch. They have said already they have bookings for puppies from the bitch and she is only 5 months old! I find that absolutely disgusting. I dont know if I will have a litter from my pup as she may have bad hips, bad eyes or I might not even feel she has the temperament to have a litter. there are too many things to take into consideration before you can even go down that route. I have never bred dogs before because I actually think there are too many that need homes without me adding to them; I tend to take in all the waifs and strays and this has been my first adventure into anything more serious. It has left quite a sour taste in my mouth I can tell you.

 

I have written to the "breeders" and I use that term loosely, to advise them of the problems I have had with her health and the fact that the money spent on vets bills would have covered her purchase. I sent that on Friday and I've heard nothing to date.

 

The DVD is a valuable piece of evidence; it was the piece that put all the behaviours, problems etc., into place. My friend still has problems getting her pup to eat and she says she is very skinny too. She is now trying to fatten her up. They are a large, heavy boned breed and I just hope she comes on.

 

I think we have all learned a valuable lesson from this; me because I have probably been too soft and my friend for trusting that she would be available to give all the advice (she is a KC accredited breeder!). We have both had our hands burnt. The couple have offered to buy my friend's puppy back but she will never be returned to them. My friend hasnt even entered into dialogue with them because she says if she does she will end up in court!!!!

 

Its horrible when somthing like this happens because you cannot see a dog (well I can't!) as property; they are living, sentient beings and I dont know what would become of her if I sent her back. I couldnt do that to her so I guess I may have to just let it go and make sure they don't get any help in the future from the Society etc., They appear to have shot themselves in the foot there anyway.

 

thanks again. I'll let you know what happens.

Gemspan

[demon_x_slash]

The couple kept a dog and their daughter has a bitch. They have said already they have bookings for puppies from the bitch and she is only 5 months old! I find that absolutely disgusting.

 

 

Please consider reporting them to the authorities, please - I'm not a soft-hearted person generally but I can't stand it when people - y'know, us evolved, advaced, thinking types - abuse and neglect animals in their care, animals that absolutely depend on us for everything. If these people are allowed to continue, there's going to be a lot more sickly, unhealthy, unhappy, and possibly abandoned puppies in the future.

[reidnet]

I would agree with Demon, Report this lot to the authorities and for what it is worth the Kennal Club. Though I think you will find the Kennel Club wont take any action..we have in the past tried to nail a well know puppy farmer here in Scotland, yeah and what do the Kennel Club do..Register the breeder as an approved Breeder..mmmmm. The kennel club are only interested in Money.

 

And its not just not unknown breeders that rip people off, believe me , been there done that got the T shirt and lost 2 dogs and that was a so called well known reputable breeder..

 

Oh we show Dogs too...But not saying too much more here for obvious reasons

 

Ian

[gemspan]

Hi

 

Yes, I know it is a difficult one. You don't want to give too much away. I'm in the same boat although anyone reading this will probably know who I am if they know me!!!!

 

I really dont think this couple realise that what they are doing is wrong. They seem to think that they have done a wonderful job with the puppies. the DVD is testament to that. Why send us something like that if they thought they were doing anything wrong? The thing about the DVD is that they were slating my friend in it - saying really horrible things because she told them in no uncertain terms what should be happening with the puppies. Then they go and send her a copy!!! LOL We had quite a giggle about that I must say.

 

I have never ventured into the world of showing because I have been around dog shows with my business and sometimes I really hated what I saw. Although these people are the minority the dogs are commodities and it makes me really really sick.

 

I have spoken to the KC but they just referred me to trading standards. Its very difficult because the puppy has a contract and is endorsed. I am worried that I wont get the endorsement lifted should I rock the boat. My friend doesnt think that will happen. In one way I am not that bothered because this has kind of sickened me to showing and perhaps having a litter in the future. On the other hand, its the principle of the matter.

 

I am always in the phone to the SSPCA about a puppy farm close to where I live but they do nothing. I have joined an action group against puppy farming so I feel as if I am doing something to help but you almost feel as if people see the potential money to be made and that seems to take over all sense and reasonable thinking.

 

Thanks again

Gemspan

[trundlecat]

I have spoken to the KC but they just referred me to trading standards.

 

That is really strange. I know I'm going back to cats again but the CFA would be very concerned about potential bad bloodlines entering the breeds, looks like the KC aren't. Have you tried Dogs Trust? I'm a Cats Protection member & at branch level if we hear of someone breeding irresponsibly we make a point of relentlessly nagging them to have their animals neutered & keep a close eye on what's happening.

 

TC

[poppynurse]

I'm a little concerned that you are complaining that the pup is not house trained and is chewing things in the house - this is normal pup behaviour - the bladder/bowel and nervous system are not reliable until around 6 months of age, accidents will happen and pups will chew particualrly when teething. And you say you are worried about the breeder not lifting the endorsements in the future - I take it you are referring to the breeding endorsement - if your pup has been so sickly would you really want to breed from her?

Regarding the show quality - pups may be sold as show potential but until they are older there is no way of telling which if any of a litter will do well in the ring.

As I see it you have entered into a contract to buy this pup and are bound to pay the agreed price unless you can negotiate a reduction to reflect the pups problems, (I gather the price has already been reduced) or you can return the pup. Give the breeder chance to reply and see what they have to say but legally I think they are within their rights to ask you to pay the balance of what you owe.

Also have a chat to the breed club and let them know what has happened, the KC won't do anything as they do not regulate breeders.

[demon_x_slash]

Sorry Poppy, but even if I couldn't pay the bill I would fight to keep that puppy out of their hands. It's the obvious ignorance of these unqualified breeders that has caused the problem - and I'm not talking about being a show dog, I'm talking about looking after those puppies so badly that they nearly died. That is the only thing worrying me.

[poppynurse]

In your posts you complain about behaviour and that it may not turn out to be a show dog; and that you fear that the endorsement won't be lifted (which would only be a concern if you wanted to breed yourself) if you say too much. You also complain about the price but you knew that before you agreed to purchase - the breeder even accomodated you when you couldn't pay in full and allowed you to pay instalments so I was responding to those points.

 

If the pups were that thin when you were 'made' to collect them at 7.5 weeks, and you weren't completely happy I don't understand why you went ahead and bought one? Particularly since your friend is knowledable about the breed - was she happy with the situation? And why did you not return the pup on day 1 when it was ill (after treatment of course). What does it say in your contract about problems post purchase?

 

I am not condoning poor breeding practices and I'm not having a go just trying to understand the situation

[carinas]

just a few points

 

- I thought that when you bought a pedigree pup it came with free insurance through the kennel club which should have covered your vet fees? My puppy certainly did.

 

- Also if i bought a puppy for £1000 i would have insured it myself straight away, if i got given a puppy for nothing i would have insured it right away. Insurance is the key to vets fees. Surely if it was to be a show dog of value you would have insured it?

 

- I fail to see why you have not yet paid for the puppy? or why they released it without payment? If you had bought it off any other dealer you would have paid for the puppy there and then?

 

I dont think you have any right to claim the vets fees back off of the "breeders" however i do think you should feel proud of yourself for rescuing your dog from them! Please do report them to the RSPCA and remind them that dogs are not money making machines.

 

As for putting your name as a behavioural adviser - use this opportunity to inform the new owners of how badly their puppy was brought into this world and make sure they let everyone around them know, eventualy there will come a point where no body will want to buy their puppies.

 

Good luck

[gemspan]

Right. Let me answer these questions.

 

Please see my original post. I work with dogs; I know what is right and what is wrong. The long and the short of it is that these people wanted ME to have their puppy because they knew it would go to a fabulous home. Because the breed is relatively new to this country there are not a huge amount of suitable owners because they are an unknown quantity. I already own and work the breed and I have a very good reputation in the dog world.

 

I am not stupid when it comes to houstraining; I know the ins and outs of housetraining and I know when there is a problem. I can assure you, there is a problem because the puppies have been allowed into too large an area when they were very young and they have learned just to go where they want to go. I am not talking about general housetraining issues; this is something more than that. Believe me - I know!!!!

 

With this breed, because there are so few, as long as a dog has no major faults, they will be able to be shown - depending on temperament of course! I will also know if the dog is suitable to breed when she is more than 2 years old. I dont need you to question whether I should breed from her. That's my decision and that's not the problem here. The problem is that I bought a puppy on the understanding that it would be fit and healthy; it came with insurance which was null and void because they did that wrong; the kennel club insurance has an excess on it. I own multiple dogs and therefore I don't insure any of my dogs because it is cheaper to pay the bills are they come in rather than pay £50 per month for something that might never happen. Pet insurance is not cost effective when you have multiple dogs!!! AND I certainly dont believe it is the answer to vets bills unless you can negotiate a multiple rate which you cant. As long as my dogs get vet cover it is up to me to decide how to pay it!!!! I dont need lectures thankyou very much. That is also not the point at issue here!!! I find these comments very patronising and not at all helpful.

 

They wanted me to take a puppy; I wasnt particularly looking for a puppy at that stage and didnt have the money so they agreed that I could pay the purchase price over a period of months. I would never send the puppy back because I care very deeply for my animals and the puppy was in the best place for the best care. Would you send a puppy back to that? I have spent the money I would have spent on purchase price on vets bills - ALSO because the illness happened and the insurance was null and void I would have had to pay the vets bills anyway!!!!!! That is a term of insurance - no previous problems!!!!! Insurance is most definitely not the key to vet bills.

 

I have asked a general question here about the law; not about my ability to pay nor my reluctance to take insurance nor my ability to look after my dogs effectively!!!! I probably have more experience with dogs than any of the people who have posted patronising replies. The problems are clearly stated and are a question of the law, nothing else. I would just like to say that I have actually worked very very hard to turn this puppy around and she is now looking very good; good weight; great temperament; will be shown and will win because she is beautiful and she is my baby! That's another reason I wouldnt send her back - I actually love her!!! I dont know if I will breed from her but the breed is in dire need of new genes as already there are problems appearing. If I do breed it will be an outcross breeding probably with a dog from Europe to strengthen the gene pool in this country and it will be done with the help of experts. The Breed Club already know of this person as I've stated above!!!!

 

I have decided not to take this matter further regarding payment. I will pay the final instalment this week and I will write them a letter advising them of my dismay at the DVD. Technically they have done nothing wrong, they have fed the puppies etc., etc., However, I dont think they will be in a good position to get a good stud dog for any future matings.

 

Thank you to everybody who posted. The matter is now closed.

 

Gemspan

[poppynurse]

I'm sorry if you felt my comments were patronising, that was not the intent. I was simply responding to points you had raised and trying to be objective. I do have some knowledge of dogs (own 5 and have owned/bred for many years) and the law relating to breeding from both sides of the fence.

 

I'm glad you've managed to sort the pup out and wish you luck in the ring

[reidnet]

The health of the Pup has to be the main thing here.

 

Gem - sent you PM..

 

Ian

[gemspan]

Hi there

 

I was speaking to a policeman that I sometimes meet when I am out with the dogs. We got talking in general and he said there are 2 things about people that you cannot criticise without causing offence. The first is their driving and the second is their ability to look after their dog!!!! He told me you could criticise anything else - their wife, kids etc., but not those 2 things.

 

I believe he is right. Its not very often I get criticised but when I do I take it very personally as you can see from my last post.

 

I have contacted Trading Standards and they advise me that I have a strong case under consumer law but I wont take it that far because it is a dog we are talking about, not a washing machine. I would never part with her now under any circumstances - even although she is driving me nuts at the moment as she has hit the "I can live without you" stage!!! You know the one, where they suddenly decide not to come when you call them and realise that they can actually jump quite high with all 4 feet off the ground!!!!

 

Gemspan

[carinas]

I had no intention of patronising you either, and i am sure you are more than capable of looking after the dog.

 

I was simply making a point that if you dont have the money to pay for the animal in the first place then you certainly dont have it to pay for an almighty vets bill which this particularly prone puppy is more than capable of picking up. I only suggested that insurance was a good idea for you. Why not try looking at breeders insurance then?

 

Have a good christmas and i'm glad you have sorted everything payments wise for the pup.

[gemspan]

Thannks for your reply Carinas. To be honest hindsight is a wonderful thing and if I had known then what I know now etc., etc., I would have handled things very differently.

 

I really was just asking as a case of law. THe breeders actually mucked up the insurance and I would have been able to claim but as it turned out I couldnt claim. The money was available but has then been spent on vet bills which I feel I shouldnt have to pay because of their mistake!!!! I bought the puppy with insurance and it was null and void so I've been out of pocket.

 

REgarding the money to look after the puppy. No matter what happened I would find the money to pay for the vet care but it shouldnt have been that way. That is what I am so upset about.

 

Anyway, I do have a plan of action and I'll be going down that route.

 

Thanks for your comments. Its difficult to judge sincerity on a forum and perhaps it wasnt the best place to ask this question.

 

Merry Christmas to you.

 

Gemspan