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Problems with painter & decorator


Hael
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Hi, this is my first time posting here, I hope Im posting at the right place. This is a long story... prepare for a long read!

I hired a local painter & decorator (lets call him Painter R, R stands for rogue lol) back in late July to do the work in my house. The work includes painting of the ceiling and walls in the house, and also fixing a ceiling of the extension (where the old conservatory is, the previous owner made it into an extension. It was leaking at the extension, the ceiling was therefore taken down before for two months to let it dry up, and I needed someone to put it back).

I asked "Painter R" what kind of paint is he going to use, he said he is using Crown paint. I asked him is it good paint, is it durable, resist to mold, resist to acid (I meant to say corrosive, but mind my English), and he said yes.
My house is not a very small house, its a 4 bedroom house. The whole job was £4650, and I accepted the quote since I wasn't able to find anyone else at that time.
The work began at early August, "Painter R" sent 2 boys to come and work on my house. The work was delayed for a bit, and eventually took two weeks, but everything "seemed" fine (since I am no expert, i didnt really know what to look at, as long as the painting seems ok, ceilings put back, I was "fine" with it. I did point out some small things out and they did fix them/they said they would but sometime they didnt and I had to tell them again), so I paid the full amount with direct debit when the job was almost all done (Painter R called me up to urge me to pay, stating that he will have to pay the guys "tomorrow", since he and his guys were pretty friendly so I did it, what a BIG MISTAKE I did).

 

There were issues with them, including I asked them to fit some of my blinds back, but they did not put any of them back, and also thrown away the brackets, at first he was trying to make me leave it, stating he doesnt remember me asking him to put any of them back. Luckily, I stated it in the text messages that I wanted some of them back, so he sent someone back to fit some of them. And made a deal with me that he is not charging me for an extra hole that needed to be filled, and a piece of wood that they put back (but was not very well done, another trader who, I found later on, agreed with me), so that they will not come back to fit one set of blinds back (which originally, fitting back all blinds is part of the job), however, I accepted it because the conversation was getting nowhere.


Two weeks after the ceiling was put back, there were cracks and bulges appeared, I called them up, they came back to fix it, cracks still exist afterwards, so I called them up again, they came back to "fix" it again. This time, the guy used a lot of fillers, making the ceiling an uneven ceiling to try and cover up a crack, but still, the crack exists, even to this day.
Worth mentioning is that, the paint that he mentioned they would use is Crown paint, but the paint that the guy left behind after fixing the ceiling, is just cheap paint that you can buy from B&Q.

Now, here comes the real problem.
Around 30th Sep I had cleaners to clean the house for me since my carpets are being fitting on 6th Oct, it was found that the paint can be washed off, just by gently rubbing it with water using fingers, and the paint could be seen dissolves on fingers!

I called "Painter R" up, and was told that he was not in the country.

"Painter R" finally called me back on 5th Oct, he said he never stated what kind of paint he would be using, and he said this is what he meant about wipe-able and non wipe-able paint, (in which I dont really remember he told me anything about it, but even if my memory is messing with me, that he really did talk to me about this and even, lets say, recorded it, since I am no expert/professionals at painting, I would think "wipe-able" meaning "the paint can be wiped with a damped cloth without any problem", and "non wipe-able" meaning  "the paint will not be wiped off by a damped cloth", who would expect the paint to be washed off just by water?!?!)
He said things like, he has painted a hundred houses like that, its a standard paint to be used in all new builds in England, etc.

He was very rude on the phone, stating he "even used a wipe-able paint for me in the kitchen and dining room and bathrooms already", but I found that the paint at the two small rooms (one bathroom, one toilet), can also be washed off easily. So he said he will send someone to paint those two rooms with the right paint that Saturday (9th Oct), nothing more. He said there is no way he is going to repaint the whole house for me. So I said to him "my carpet is being fitted on 6th, what if any paint dripped on them?". He said "Im not going to do anything after the carpet is fitted, or you will find the slightest thing on the carpet and charge me for it." The conversation went on, eventually he said, "Im not going to do anything after the carpet is fitted, you had your chance, good bye." and he hung me up!

I called him back straightly, and he said, "So what do you want?" I stated I still needed those 2 rooms fixed, so he said he will send someone to paint those two rooms with the right paint that Saturday, and he wont guarantee anything about making my floor dirty. I accepted it.

Then I called up citizensadvice, and asked them what to do, then followed some of their advice.

I quickly found a trusted trader from a website recommended by citizensadvice, and talked to the trusted trader (Lets call him "Trusted trader A"). He was a kind gentleman who listened to my problem, and he quickly identified that the paint they used, was very likely cheap contract matt, which is not suitable for a redecoration job like in my house. He told me to use a silky, soft cloth damped with water, to wipe the walls left to right for around 10 times and see what happens, so I did, with a car washing cloth damped with just cold water, and the paint was being washed off everywhere (apart from Kitchen, Dining room, utility room and the main bathroom)!

I told "Painter R", "I am already seeing the old blue paint on the bathroom wall just after 10 seconds of gently wiping with a damped cloth", he told me to "stop wiping the wall, now you are damaging it"
I told "Painter R", "you did not apply primers before using that paint on top of it". He answered: "There's no such thing as primers for walls! You do not know what you are talking about I'm afraid"

 

On 6th Weds, "Painter R" said he has given the paint to his painter for Saturday morning (9th Oct) and the painter will be there at 9am.
I asked "Painter R" what kind of paint he is using this time, he mentioned the name of a paint which "trusted trader A" said should erase the problem.
I asked "Painter R" how many coats is he applying, he said only 1, I asked why not 2? (because 2 costs is always recommended)
Guess how he answered me? He said "If I get anymore messages no one is coming on Saturday". So I stopped texting him as advised by "Trusted trader A".


I also sent a formal complaint letter on 7th Oct to "Painter R" through email, stating Consumer Rights Act 2015 in the letter and mentioned that he can continue to perform the fixings that he is going to do that Saturday, also stated about what other things I wanted, asking him to reply me in 14 days.

He never replied, and no one ever came on Saturday 9th Oct. I texted both "Painter R" and the worker who "Painter R" said would be coming, none of them ever replied. I havent been in touch with them since.

I paid "Trusted trader A" to come and have a look at the house on the following Sunday morning 10th Oct, and he wrote me a report and gave me a quote (since I needed quote from at least 3 traders.)

"Trusted trader A" pointed out 3 things in the report:
1: The walls prior to painting could have been a sheen finish and may have required a primer to stop the penetration occurring now, there are plenty of primers on the market 
2: Preparation could be an issue, if the walls had been abraded off using grade 120 sandpaper to key the surface down prior to application of paints and a Vinyl or Durable Matt used 
3: The product used looks and feels like a contract Matt product, which would normally be used on new plaster finish and would not be recommended for a redecoration product.

Trusted trader A" Also stated that the quality of the work in some areas was not very good.

I also found another trusted trader from another trusted website (Lets call him "Trusted trader B")
"Trusted trader B" pointed out a lot of things that were not done right by "Painter R". He said similar things as "Trusted trader A", stating that the work was done poorly, preparation was not done properly.
He stated that, some people would ask for contract matt to be used because its very cheap. However, for a 4650 job, it really shouldnt be contract matt unless you specified you wanted contract matt (which I obviously didnt).
And the ceilings that was put back by "Painter R", was not done right, no metal corners were used, and hence why the corners dont look straight.

I also found that all the ceilings in the house is painted with contract matt, and can be wiped off easily using a damped soft cloth.

Im getting 2 quotes for the paintings of walls and ceilings from the two trusted trader. (as I was told to get quotes from 3 traders.) but for now, I am only able to get 1 quote for the fixing of the ceiling from "Trusted trader B".

Following the advice from citizensadvice, I should be writing a letter with more serious manner 14 days after I sent the first. With the average of 3 quotes attached which I am still yet to be able to find. If the trader still do not reply me 10 days after that, Ill have to go for the small claim court.

 

 


After the long read...
I would like to know, what else should I do next?
Is it likely for me to win the small claim case?
I really need some help and advises here.

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No one is going to read that war and peace.

 

Just briefly summarise things using short bullet points with dates 

 

And please name names at the top,. No need to protect them if they are registered business es.

 

Dx

please don't hit Quote...just type we know what we said earlier..

DCA's view debtors as suckers, marks and mugs

NO DCA has ANY legal powers whatsoever on ANY debt no matter what it's Type

and they

are NOT and can NEVER  be BAILIFFS. even if a debt has been to court..

If everyone stopped blindly paying DCA's Tomorrow, their industry would collapse overnight... 

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Hi, I tried editing the topic but I dont know how to do so.
The reasons why I didnt include their name is that I dont really want them to know what exactly I did/going to do, and what evidence I have already.
However, since you are probably more experienced than me with these matters, I dont mind putting their names here if you think it is OK?

 

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Do it..name and shame if they are registered business es on company house website

 

Just put up a new post of your issue here as advised

please don't hit Quote...just type we know what we said earlier..

DCA's view debtors as suckers, marks and mugs

NO DCA has ANY legal powers whatsoever on ANY debt no matter what it's Type

and they

are NOT and can NEVER  be BAILIFFS. even if a debt has been to court..

If everyone stopped blindly paying DCA's Tomorrow, their industry would collapse overnight... 

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For longer version and more details, please read above:
Here is the short version:

In late July:

I hired "Decor Developments - Painters and Decorators in Lincoln" to do the work in my house. 
The work includes painting of the ceiling and walls in the house, and also fixing a ceiling of the extension. The whole job was £4650.

In early August:
The work began, and took 2 weeks to finish. I paid the full amount with direct debit bank transfer when the job was almost all done.

In late August:
There were cracks and bulges appeared at the ceiling they fixed, I had to call them up twice, they fixed twice, but one crack is still visible today (19 Oct). The guy who fixed it, left behind some paint, and it was not Crown paint that they said they used.

30th Sep:
It is found that the paint can be washed off, just by gently rubbing it with water using fingers, and the paint could be seen dissolves on fingers. This issue is found in all walls apart from the walls of the kitchen, dining room, main bathroom, also found in all ceilings of the house (including the ceilings of kitchen, dining room, main bathroom)
Also found that the paintings were poorly done in some areas.

5th Oct:
Finally able to get hold of the director of Decor Developments.
He stated this is what he meant about non-wipeable paint, (in which I had no memories we had such conversation) He said has painted a hundred houses like that, its a standard paint to be used in all new builds in England, etc. The fact that he didnt state what kind of paint to use in the quote, means that it is entirely up to him to use the cheapest paint possible.
He was very rude, hung me up at some point, eventually only agreed to send someone to repaint 1 small bathroom and 1 small toilet on Sat 9th Oct, and no more. He wont guarantee anything about keeping my brand new carpets or other surfaces clean. 

The same day I called up citizensadvice, also found a trusted trader for advises.

The director of Decor Developments told me to stop wiping the walls, cause Ill be damaging it, and that there is no such thing as primers for walls (which there obviously is). (this is in text messages)

6th Oct:
The director of Decor Developments refused to explain why they are not performing a proper fixing (2 coats) for the 2 rooms he promised to fix, ignored my messages about that there is still a crack at the ceiling of the extension, and threatened to send no one on Saturday if I continue to text message him.

7th Oct:
I sent a formal complaint letter through email to Decor Developments, stating Consumer Rights Act 2015 in the letter and mentioned that he can continue to perform the fixings that he is going to do on 9th Oct, also stated about what other things I request, asking him to reply me in 14 days.

9th Oct
No one came, Decor Developments stopped communicating with me.

10th Oct
I paid for a trusted trader to look at the house, he tested the walls (using a car washing cloth damped with water, wipe the walls left to right for around 10 times, and the paint would come off) and he pointed out different issues with the poor, unprofessional workmanship performed by decor development, and also the unsuitable paint for redec being used. He later sent me a report about it.

14th Oct
Another trusted trader came to look at the house, stating the poor workmanship done, and cheap, inappropriate paint being used. 

By 19th Oct
I now have 2 quotes for the paintings for the ceilings and walls. 1 quote for fixing the ceilings.

I would like to know, what else should I do next?
Is it likely for me to win the small claim case?
I really need some help and advises here.

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I suppose you either pay by cash or you pay by bank transfer – correct? Follow the links and see where that leaves you.

It seems that you've really been had over here and of course we will help you all the way but let me say that although getting a judgement against this person is a given, enforcing it might be rather a different matter and so that is where you will have to do some research to find out what assets this person has.

You've given the trading name of the person you were dealing with – but what is the name of the person? What is the address – and any other details that you might have relating to that person.

You say that you've got to quotes for putting everything right. Are those quotes from independent people – independent of each other?

Are you satisfied that if you implement one of those quotes that the whole job will be put right in the way that you expected when you first entered into the contract to the trader with whom you have this dispute?

What is the value of those quotes?

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Yes... I paid by bank transfer. And I know... it was a BIG MISTAKE I made.
https://www.decor-developments.co.uk/

This is the website of the company, with their address phone number, email, etc.
And here are the reviews the company has in different sites, with the photo of the director, Rick.

https://www.checkatrade.com/trades/DecorDevelopments/reviews?page=1

https://www.ratedpeople.com/profile/decor-developments
Oddly, those are generally very good reviews, with only a few bad ones, I guess Im one of those unlucky ones.
One of the photo shows the car plate of the company, which is YB57GPO
I have Rick's mobile phone number.

I believe the quotes I have now, are from people independent of each other, because one of them is from Nottingham, and he has had the company for years (found on https://trustedtraders.which.co.uk/), the other one is a self-employed worker based in Lincoln. (found on https://www.checkatrade.com/)

The new quotes I have from the first trusted trader, just to repaint the problematic walls would be £2900 plus VAT (I found out the ceilings paint issue just yesterday, and he promised to send me a new quote with the painting of the ceilings. He said he cant do plastering so he cant give me a quote for the fixing of the ceiling at the extension.)
The second trusted trader, sent me the quote to fix all the painting problems at the ceilings and walls, and fixing the extension ceiling as well. which would be £4680 including SIC. (but this does not include the costs of the paint, he said he will have to buy them and show me the receipt for me to pay).

The reason for the new one to be more expensive is that, the carpets are now fitted, and a few furniture has moved in now (I just moved in few days ago), protections need to be done. Which back in August, when Decor Development came to work on my house, the house was empty without carpets and it wouldve been a lot easier.

I do believe that if I implement one of those quotes that the whole job will be put right in the way that I expected when I first entered into the contract to Decor Development. The current state is simply terrible. No proper sanding anywhere, no proper caulking at the wood works or anywhere else, no metal corners for the ceilings, no primers applied, nothing.

The second trader even mentioned that, "you just need to show the photos before and after I did the work, you will see the differences and likely win the case." But thats just what he said, though.
The second trader already mentioned in the quote what paint would he be using exactly (Vinyl mat from Johnstone's). In which I asked the first trusted trader about this paint, and he texted me and said this paint is OK.

 

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I'm afraid that you can't generally trust the good reviews. They may be genuine but you never know. You can certainly trust the bad ones far more – although of course some people may simply have a grudge.

He said that the owners name is Rick. Is there is only name or doesn't have a surname?

I'm not entirely sure what you are saying about the cost of remedying all the defects and completing the project to a satisfactory standard. Please can you clarify.

I understand that you have got to quotes which detail the condition of the job now, the work needed to complete it and the cost. Is this correct?

Do you know where this man Rick lives?

 

WWW.DECOR-DEVELOPMENTS.CO.UK

Professional internal & External painters & Decorators. Commercial, Domestic, Home or Office whatever needs painting we can paint it.Call...

 

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10 minutes ago, BankFodder said:

I'm afraid that you can't generally trust the good reviews. They may be genuine but you never know. You can certainly trust the bad ones far more – although of course some people may simply have a grudge.

He said that the owners name is Rick. Is there is only name or doesn't have a surname?

I'm not entirely sure what you are saying about the cost of remedying all the defects and completing the project to a satisfactory standard. Please can you clarify.

I understand that you have got to quotes which detail the condition of the job now, the work needed to complete it and the cost. Is this correct?

Do you know where this man Rick lives?


I have no idea about his other name or surname either.

"I understand that you have got to quotes which detail the condition of the job now, the work needed to complete it and the cost."
One quote has the details of the condition of the job now, one quote doesnt. (the one doesnt he detailed everything to me in text messages)
Yes for the work needed to complete it and the cost.

I have no idea where he lives.

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Okay, we can help you start a court action and on the basis of what you tell us and with the evidence you have, it's beyond doubt that you will win. However as I've already explained to you the problem is always with enforcement.

Do you have an address for this company? As far as I can see there are possibly two addresses – one at number 10 the high street and another is a business centre.

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This is the information in the emails he sent me:
 

Rick

Decor Developments  Ltd

Oak House Business Centre,

Witham Park,

Waterside South,

Lincoln

LN5 7FB

01522 253041

07835 065675

www.decor-developments.co.uk


One thing Im scared is that, I am not sure if he really did talk to me about the paint that he will be using (about wipe-able or non-wipeable), and if he recorded it, I dont have any memory about it but like I said but I am really not sure about it.
Also, in case he really did, if he said wipeable paint, I would think the paint can be washed with water without an issue, if he said non-wipeable paint, I would think the paint can not be washed off by water.

What comfort me is that, the trusted trader from Nottingham told me that, if he really is using that cheap Contract matt (which is not suitable and not a common practice to be used in a redecorating job) he really should have sat down and talked to me, clearly stating what is the paint like, which he definitely didn't.

The other trusted trader stated that, unless the customer specifically specified that they wanted to use the cheapest Contract matt paint to save money, otherwise he would use Vinyl matt for the whole house, not to mention that it was a redec job. And by the fact that my quote was £4650, he saw no problem for Decor Developments to use the Vinyl matt for the whole house, as the cost would only be around £150 more.

 

I just found that I have his name and the bank details of the company as well.
"Please contact Ricky Burns on 07835065675 with any questions or comments."
 

 

Found his linked in page:
https://uk.linkedin.com/in/ricky-burns-3621b484

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In terms of whether the particular paint to be used was specified – it's not relevant in this case. It would be beyond belief that a paint job would use paint which could be wiped off by somebody's hand.
It's clear that even if it isn't specified that it is an implied term that the paint will be fit for the purpose.

Well done on finding the name.

Start doing some research and see if you can find out any information about where he lives.

Also, there is an address at 10 High St. What is that about?

 

Incidentally, the reason that you are trying to identify his property is because if he owns it, then you have successfully identified an asset and this means that if you going to sue him, you have a valuable asset against which you can enforce the judgement.

Because he is not trading as a limited liability company, it means that everything he owns is available for enforcement of a judgement.

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Thats a bigggg relief to hear.

I seriously had no idea how you found that address, but I searched a bit and found this:
https://uk.companiesdb.net/companies/acorn-training-and-consultancy-limited/
Looks like it is the address of the company he used to operate, but now dissolved.

Found this as well, but not very updated info.
https://find-and-update.company-information.service.gov.uk/officers/aYw76iEyMayQlByARe-SLZhDHi8/appointments
 

Found this, looks like he was at least once using this address for decor developments as well.
https://www.misterwhat.co.uk/company/2917428-decor-developments-lincoln

http://www.checkcompany.co.uk/director/441629/MR-RICKY-BURNS

https://www.companydirectorcheck.com/ricky-burns-2


It says here he now lives in Tattershall, Lincolnshire.
https://www.worldofbooks.com/en-gb/books/author/ricky-burns

Looking at the address in google, it looks like a residential area.

 

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I suggest that you visit the land registry website

https://eservices.landregistry.gov.uk/eservices/FindAProperty/view/QuickEnquiryInit.do

 

And do a check on the owner of any of the properties that come up in your search. It will cost about three quid each search but if one of them turns up with him as the owner then you are up and running.

Let us know what you find

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Thank you very much for your help.
I got it!
Registered Owner(s) : RICKY BURNS of The Old Rectory, 10 High Street, Tattershall, Lincolnshire LN4 4LE.

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That is excellent news. 

 

Please stand by for a fuller reply later

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1 hour ago, BankFodder said:

 

Because he is not trading as a limited liability company, it means that everything he owns is available for enforcement of a judgement.

 

I think he may be trading as a limited liability company as his signature block on his email [Post #11] says "Decor Developments  Ltd". That company is listed at Companies House as an Active company with Ricky Burns as sole director. It appears to be the same Ricky Burns judging by the date of birth. The Registered Office is in Covent Garden, London, but the address is the offices of a company formation agent so it will just be a brass plate location.  It was only formed in May this year with a nominal share capital of £2! How much money is in Decor Developments Ltd is anyone's guess - my guess is not a lot.

 

DECOR DEVELOPMENTS LTD overview - Find and update company information - GOV.UK (company-information.service.gov.uk)

 

That may complicate enforcement if he argues that he was contracting on behalf of Decor Developments Ltd. 

 

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@HaelA further thought re my post above.

 

You hired them to do the work in late July but presumably they'd given you a quotation for the work prior to that?

 

Was that quotation in writing? What date was it issued? Did it say it was from Decor Developments Ltd?

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Sorry, perhaps I shouldve stated more clearly.
I got the quote from them on 26th of July through email and accepted it through text message that day.
The quote is in a word document file, it was issued on 26/07/2021, and this is the at the top of the quote:
 

Decor Developments

Oak House Business Centre,

Witham Park,

Waterside South,

Lincoln

LN5 7FB

01526 577123

07835065675
 

At the very bottom of the quote, it says "Please contact Ricky Burns on 07835065675 with any questions or comments."

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It is certainly helpful to know that he has now incorporated as a limited liability company – but so far I haven't seen anything or heard anything that makes me believe that that's how he represented himself when he sold his services to our OP.

My suggestion to the OP now is to visit the website and start saving the pages into a PDF format. You can do that by being on the website and then going to the print function in your browser and rather than go to your printer tell it to save to PDF.

Get at least the main page and also the "about" page – and then get a few more pages if you can.

I've had a look at the website and there is nothing there about limited liability company.

However my site team colleague @Ethel Street is right to point out the limited liability status and also write to suggest that he may well raise this issue if you try to sue him.

Now that this has been flagged up, you can be ready for it – and that is why you are protecting yourself by gathering as much evidence now that he does not have limited liability status in case suddenly his registered company name and number start appearing on his website and elsewhere.

Go through all the emails and any other message you receive from him. Check that there is nothing there that has limited liability. Make sure you backup everything. Don't just leave it to chance on the telephone. You want to copies – one on your computer and one somewhere else. If you use anything in the cloud such as Google Drive or Microsoft one drive then make sure there's a copy stored there as well. Maybe you had better start printing stuff out.

The next thing is to not let on to him that you know about his residential address. Do not communicate with it do not refer to it. We will be using it fairly soon I expect but there is no need to draw his attention to it.

I'm going to propose a letter and you can have a look and see if you're prepared to send it.

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Please could you post up the two assessments and quotations which you say you have received. Post them up here in PDF format.

What is the value of each quote?

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Ive already saved every single page of this website: https://www.decor-developments.co.uk/ in PDFs.

Ive also backuped the two emails he sent me, one with the quote attached and one with the invoice attached. In the email with the quote attached, only Decor developments was mentioned in both that email and the quote.

However, bad news, the name of the bank account is "Décor Developments Ltd" in the invoice, and the end of that email suddenly became 

 

Rick

Decor Developments  Ltd

Oak House Business Centre,

Witham Park,

Waterside South,

Lincoln

LN5 7FB

01522 253041

07835 065675

www.decor-developments.co.uk

 

The Ltd was with a double space before it, so obviously he added it by hand.


I also right clicked>print>saved as pdf for those 2 emails, and I also downloaded the quote and invoice again, and saved them in PDFs.

 

In the text messages between him and me, he never mentioned about Ltd. I screen capped all of the messages already.

I will save all these files in a separate folder and save it on my PC, and also on another external hard drive.

For the quotes, Ill upload them later.
However, one of them is not a complete quote, I am still waiting for the trader to add back the ceiling painting bit. 
 

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This is the quote and the invoice decor development sent me.

 

 

This is one of the quote I received from one of the trader

 

 

 

This is the report together with the incomplete quote from another trader

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