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Lloyds bank refuse to cancel duplicate payment and hang up on customer


Intrepid
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When making an online payment using my Lloyds credit card no payment confirmation was received. As a result the payment was made again and this time payment confirmation was recieved. When I logged into my credit to check the payment I see that the payment has been made twice.

 

I contacted Lloyds card services to cancel the duplicate payment, Lloyds refused to cancel the payment and hung up on me. The phone call was recorded.

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You shouldn't be just considering making the complaint. You should begin the formal complaint immediately. By simply "considering" making a complaint you are wasting time.
They have up to 8 weeks before they are obliged to allow the complaint to go onto the FOS. Eight weeks is the maximum but in fact they always use all of that time.

Because you have begun a formal complaint then there is no pressure on them. Begin the formal complaint and tell them that you want it taken to the FOS and a lease then you know that if it hasn't been sorted within a week then it will go to the FOS.

Although you have written to the CEO, I would follow it up immediately with a further letter and head it complaint to the financial ombudsman service. Then repeat your complaint but this time say that this is your formal complaint and you want escalated to the FOS.

By the way, we've been helping you quite a lot – and yet something like this happens and you still go it alone.

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Posted (edited)

It is my understanding that we must reach a deadlock position before I can raise the complaint to the FOS. While companies always abuse of the 8 week deadline I will ask them to confirm their final position, if they refuse to provide a deadlock letter I will consider they have made their final decision.

 

If you think it is worthwhile beginning the complaint with the FOS so it is registered then I will of course do so, although in my experience the Ombudsman service will simply close the complaint until the 8 week period has elapsed. They will do so incorrectly even if a final position has been reached before the 8 weeks and they should be considering the complaint.

 

I am very appreciative of your input it has been very thorough, I am also posting up my experiences for the benefit of others.

 

I'm aware that the site team's time is precious and that this is indeed a self help forum, therefore where I feel able to proceed and reduce the burden on this site team I think it is preferable to do so. Where I think it is best to wait for a second opinion I think that is also worth doing.

 

For example in this case I am fairly familiar with the first steps to raise a complaint and apply pressure, in this specific case if I start having to quote consumer law I am not as sure but consider that is likely to revolve around BCOBS or a section 75 claim.

Edited by Intrepid
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I think you've completely misunderstood how it works.

You are right that there has to be a deadlock but the deadlock position is achieved after a weeks. Eight weeks begins from the time that you begin your formal complaint.

As you haven't begun a formal complaint yet, then you're a weeks hasn't begun to run. This means that you are wasting time and they are benefiting from the fact that you have begun a formal complaint and so they don't feel that there is any particular pressure on them.

You are entitled to begin a complaint with the ombudsman until the eight week (maximum) timeline has been exhausted and they then agree that you are in deadlock – although the word "deadlock" is not used any more. Instead they simply give you what they call their "final response".

So if you make it clear to them that your complaint is now a formal complaint and that you wanted taken to the ombudsman, you begin your eight week voyage immediately and if at the end of the eight weeks they feel that they can't do anything then they will give you their final response and it can then go to the ombudsman immediately.

Once again, if you had come to us before you started firing off complaints to the CEO you would have discovered this

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Posted (edited)

I think the e-mail I have sent is very unambigious to the fact that it is a formal complaint and the 8 week timeline is ticking as of today.

As selective as the Ombudsman can be, in my experience an e-mail complaining of an issue is considered to be the beginning of the dispute for their reference or even before that the phone conversation that was had earlier in the day. The Ombudsman uses the phrase "when did you complain to the business" to define the start date of the dispute when submitting a case.

 

There must be some minor differences between Ombudsman departments as the FOS refers specifically to their "final written answer" whereas the energy Ombudsman is worded towards receiving a "deadlock letter".

 

Unfortunately the process laid out by the various Ombudsman services is not always what happens in reality. I have dealt with companies that simply to refuse to engage and refuse to provide a deadlock letter in an attempt to pretend there was no issue to resolve.  How wrong they turned out to be.. Or alternatively they refuse to declare a position in order to force the full 8 week delay before a case is brought to the Ombudsman where as it is  entirely possible to established at any time that the apellant and the company are in deadlock and certainly before 8 weeks.

Edited by Intrepid
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Posted (edited)

So far a response has been received from the "Group Executive Complaints" team, aka the normal team they use anyway but use a posh name because they think it sounds better.

They seem very keen given that I copied my complaint sent to their CEO to several newspapers that their response be considered confidential as they purposely wrote CONFIDENTIAL in the first line of their reply.
 

Does this have any legal bearing? I predict that it is of course complete rubbish as I doubt customer complaint handling is considered all that privileged in a court of law but thought best to seek a second opinion before posting up all of their correspondence for scrutiny.

 

Well the above can be disregarded, I see a very helpful underlining link provides exactly the explanation I was seeking.

 

 

I believe I have found the correct terms of reference for my complaint here should Lloyds put up any resistance to resolving the dipsute.

 

BCOBS 5.1.11

Firm's liability for unauthorised payments:

  • (1)

    Where a banking customer denies having authorised a payment, it is for the firm to prove that the payment was authorised.

  • (2)

    Where a payment from a banking customer's account was not authorised by the banking customer, a firm must, within a reasonable period, refund the amount of the unauthorised payment to the banking customer and, where applicable, restore the banking customer's account to the state it would have been in had the unauthorised payment not taken place.

It was made very clear over the phone that the payment was unauthorised and I believe I will be able to evidence this. Should Lloyds entrench their positon I shall send an SAR requesting all manner of detail regarding the card payments they have processed or attempted to process.

Edited by Intrepid
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You seem to think that often and the energy ombudsman are somehow related. They're not.

Secondly, I don't think that in the absence of an agreement, that simply pasting the word "confidential" at the top of a letter creates a duty of confidentiality.
Confidentiality is generally speaking a contractual duty and that means there has to be an agreement in advance. It can be an equitable duty if the circumstances are such that confidentiality might be inferred from the circumstances. For instance, if you were eavesdropping somebody else's conversation then it may well be the you could be visited with a duty of confidentiality and equity.

Why don't you send them an SAR immediately?

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I don't propose to send them an SAR immediately as I prefer to be efficient in my dealings and await to see if they will resolve the complaint before I carry out any extra and perhaps un-necessary effort in this regard. My application of pressure will be commensurate to their level of resistance.

 

Thank you for your clarification regarding the use of confidential.

 

Rather amusingly in the so far pointless e-mail tennis they have progressed from "CONFIDENTIAL" to "Classification: Confidential" to "Classification: Confidential"

 

The use of colour is not very intimidating and reminds me of the numerous PCN's that are posted up on this site.

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Lloyds responded with their final written response by refusing to do anything to resolve the complaint.

 

Lloyds have been sent a SAR.

 

A complaint has been raised with the FOS.

 

A copy of the recorded phone call has been distributed to relevant media outlets.

 

Lloyds Bank are attempting to insist their role in resolving the matter is entirely conditional upon me contacting the merchant who received payment. I do not believe this is the case and can see no reference or agreement to indicate as such.

 

Lloyds Bank also made a false statement in their final written response in order to attempt to insist their customer agents are not liars. Rather than affirm this it merely supports the fact misleading customers is endemic within Lloyds Banking Group and may even be a matter of policy.

 

The Financial Ombudsman has responded indicating it will be a number of weeks before they will be able to allocate the complaint to a case officer.

 

I think in order to deal with this issue more promptly it would simply be more efficient to litigate the matter.


I propose the following LBC:

 

Quote

Dear Lloyds Banking Group,

You were informed on 7th October 2021 of an unauthorised payment taken on 7th October 2021 from credit card account XXXX made payable to XXXX.

It was requested several times that this be corrected and you have refused.

 

I invite you to respond to this letter and if you continue to refuse to take the requested action please carefully explain why this is the case.

If the unauthorised payment is not corrected within 14 days of the date of this letter, a claim will be brought in the county court with no further reference to yourselves.

Sincerely,

 

Intrepid.

 

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I propose the following particulars:

 

Quote

1. On 7th October 2021 Lloyds Bank PLC processed an unauthorised payment on my account ref: xxxx to xxxx for £84.
 

2. On 7th October 2021 I contacted Lloyds Bank PLC regarding the unauthorised payment and Lloyds refused to return the payment.

 

3.The claimant seeks that the unauthorised payment is returned.

 

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add duplicate payment

 

dx 

please don't hit Quote...just type we know what we said earlier..

DCA's view debtors as suckers, marks and mugs

NO DCA has ANY legal powers whatsoever on ANY debt no matter what it's Type

and they

are NOT and can NEVER  be BAILIFFS. even if a debt has been to court..

If everyone stopped blindly paying DCA's Tomorrow, their industry would collapse overnight... 

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Thanks for your input DX, I considered this but also felt it left room for Lloyds Bank to try and claim that the payment was authorised if referred to as a duplicate payment.

 

They will argue that there is no way for a duplicate payment to exist without authorisation. The way I have written it makes no admission as to how the two payments came to exist.

 

BCOBS makes no reference to duplicate payments, only unauthorised payments.

 

If you know of any code, law or contract term that deals with duplicate payments that I could use in my claim I would be grateful to be referred to.

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your issue was sadly caused by your own mistake.....?

 

you initiated a second same payment because you thought the 1st had not gone through?

 

 

please don't hit Quote...just type we know what we said earlier..

DCA's view debtors as suckers, marks and mugs

NO DCA has ANY legal powers whatsoever on ANY debt no matter what it's Type

and they

are NOT and can NEVER  be BAILIFFS. even if a debt has been to court..

If everyone stopped blindly paying DCA's Tomorrow, their industry would collapse overnight... 

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The OP posts, get replies, and then they do what they initially planned, regardless of the reply/replies ……. sometimes they tell respondents to stick to other matters, too!

 

I’m unsure (since they seem to disagree with each and every respondent / reply) if the OP is after

1) advice at all, or

2) just an outlet to ‘vent’, or

3) merely validation of their preformed view.

 

I’d be put off contributing more substantial advice by their attitude…..

Edited by BazzaS
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you'll get a far better outcome from this if you state this is a duplicate payment made by accident as the 1st payment appeared unsuccessful due to their poor online payment system.

 

you wont need to hit anyone with a long confusing trip into relevant banking regulations.

please don't hit Quote...just type we know what we said earlier..

DCA's view debtors as suckers, marks and mugs

NO DCA has ANY legal powers whatsoever on ANY debt no matter what it's Type

and they

are NOT and can NEVER  be BAILIFFS. even if a debt has been to court..

If everyone stopped blindly paying DCA's Tomorrow, their industry would collapse overnight... 

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Ok thank you for the suggestion but how to go about it?

The complaints process has already been exhausted and Lloyds Bank have already refused to take any action - almost becase it was a duplicate payment i.e. that is eventually going to be their defence, that the payment was authorised.

I'm not clear on the legal basis to bring a claim for what you are suggesting, which is again why I asked and haven't received a response. Still you seem confident that this is the right way to bring the claim. You appear to suggest not referring to BCOBS at all and I partly understand your reasons why, if it fails as a point of claim it supports a point of defence so maybe it is better to let them bring it up and use it if necessary.

My own research - which no one has commented on until this morning is that the legal basis to bring a claim is regarding (un)authorised payments under BCOBS. The reason I proposed the particulars in the way that I did is that the onus of proof to show that a payment is authorised is strictly on Lloyds Bank if I don't admit to it previously.

I am gathering evidence to show their payment systems is the root cause of the issue but then what does this become, a claim for breach of contract? I am happy to seek out and scour through any contract I can find regarding payment terms but no doubt they will have prepared clausues for this case.

If this is definitely the preferred course of action then the particulars can be amended:

 

Quote

1. On 7th October 2021 Lloyds Bank PLC processed an unauthorised payment on my account ref: xxxx to xxxx for £84.

2. The payment was duplicated as a result of repeated payment failures and the inability to complete the payment for a period of several days.
 

2. On 7th October 2021 I contacted Lloyds Bank PLC regarding the unauthorised payment and Lloyds refused to return the payment.

 

3.The claimant seeks that the unauthorised payment is returned.

 

Edited by Intrepid
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@dx100ukI agree it was a result of their poor online payment system, no doubt they will attempt to blame the merchant and refer me to them. I obviously consider they are liable as the payment provider but wonder whether I would need to invoke the The Contract (Rights of Third Parties) Act 1999?

@Ethel Street Thank you, they have asked, and of course I considered it and would do so, however it is a pointless task because regrettably it was to Shell Energy with whom there is a protracted dispute and they will keep anything they can get their hands on right now.

 

Asking and being rebutted and providing Lloyds with the rebuttal will likely hinder things in the future as they grasp at any reason they can to do nothing.

Despite refusing entirely within their final written answer, Lloyds made grumblings of making a claim presumably section 75 after 15 days. However I do not trust this process to be successful so am laying the foundation to continue if necessary and without delay.

 

Of course I have the option to simply not make the payment next month, but the point which I am intended on pursuing is that I should not be left out of pocket for their payment system failures or whatever behaviour it induces.

Edited by Intrepid
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we'll you are not alone in making duplicate payments, ive been with lloyds amongst others sine the 80's.

 

i have found lloyds usually take about 4-6 weeks to refund if i raised a chargeback .

please don't hit Quote...just type we know what we said earlier..

DCA's view debtors as suckers, marks and mugs

NO DCA has ANY legal powers whatsoever on ANY debt no matter what it's Type

and they

are NOT and can NEVER  be BAILIFFS. even if a debt has been to court..

If everyone stopped blindly paying DCA's Tomorrow, their industry would collapse overnight... 

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