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    • If you are flying away tomorrow (or rather this) morning I'd just forget about complaining to the police now.  As BF said earlier it's probably just a waste of your time anyway so I wouldn't worry about it.  Forget it for now.  Have a safe flight and concentrate on your other thread against Aviva.
    • I'm afraid you won't get a complaint drafted before tomorrow morning - and I think most others here think it would be a waste of time anyway and that the police decision won't change.  I would ask for a review and make a complaint on principle, but I suspect you are better off concentrating your effort on your other thread and direct complaint against Aviva.   Unless you are out of the country for an extended period I'd wait until your return before considering futrther whwther to complain about the police.   [ By the way, just so that you don't mislead yourself as it's a mistake many people make, ALL agreements are "verbal" in that they are composed of words.  Some agreements are in writing and others are oral, spoken or vocal.  The law recognises oral or spoken agreements just as much as ones that are written down.  The only practical difference is that oral agreements can be difficult to prove in a dispute]
    • Just to add there is a scheme called the Victim's Right to Review.  It basically applies to decisions made by the CPS not to go ahead with a prosecution.  It doesn't apply to decisions made by local police forces, but it does say:   19.  Decisions that are not eligible for VRR include: ... iii where the police or other investigator exercises their independent discretion not to investigate or not to investigate a case further (whether in consultation with the CPS or not) and the CPS have not been requested / have been unable to make a final decision to charge. Requests for review of such decisions should instead be addressed to the relevant police force/other investigator; [My bold] Victims' Right to Review Scheme | The Crown Prosecution Service WWW.CPS.GOV.UK   I'm not familiar with the scheme so can't advise - but other posters here may know about it or have experience of it.  You need to read the above link but note that it talks about things that seem to fit your situation.   eg a victim is defined as ‘a person who has made an allegation that they have suffered harm, including physical, mental or emotional harm or economic loss which was directly caused by criminal conduct’.   If you have not already requested that the police review their decision not to pass the case onto the CPS, then I would do so.  If you are not happy with the outcome of that, complain.   I can't advise you definitely to go ahead and ask for a review or complain, but if I were in your situation that is what I would do.  But I tend to agree with BankFodder that you'll get nowhere and, if you are sick and tired of all this and just want it to go away, then just drop the police.  However, if you don't try...   [Apologies for the italic typeface/font - it's the above link causing it.  The italics should have stopped at the end of the third para above ending ' ... criminal conduct'.  I can't change it.  Very annoying]
    • @Manxman in exile I eloped to get with my husband si my husband and siblings never sat together in the same room .   Hes claiming a verbal agreement was made but a verbal agreement doesn't hold any water in the eyes of the law..no agreement was made I was in Leeds with my toddler.    He has made use of the policy , had the luxury of the insurance and reversed the money back and now Aviva are coming after me.   You've summed it up well is there anyone in the group that can help me draft the complaint to the police as I'm flying out first thing tomorrow and my head is all over the place.   My husband me Mr z , my late father and eldest brother were at this meeting supposedly when the verbal agreement was made but yet the officer took a statement off the eldest brother and didn't take it off the husband and based the final decision on the eldest brothers statement and Mr Z and all other evidence which is in written form has been completely dismissed    I'm fighting it all alone coming from an Asian background I am getting taunts and salt is bring rubbed on my wounds its not been a pleasant experience yo say the least trying to prove my innocence and having to listen to the b******* being spouted out by everyone whilst Mr Z is walking away not guilty 
    • I would complain to the police - even if I thought it would go nowhere.  I can't see that you have anything to lose.   I can't tell you the grounds of your complaint because I don't know the details of everything that has happened (you know better than I do)  and because I've found much of the story too difficult to follow.     But - based on everything you have told us - it seems to me that your brother has clearly committed fraud by obtaining the benefit of an insurance policy by falsely misrepresenting that he was opening the policy on your behalf and also by falsely misrepresenting himself - or a third party - as being your husband.  If your brother could not have taken out that policy without making those misrepresentations, then he has committed fraud.  It doesn't matter whether the victim was Aviva or you  and it doesn't matter if the victim realises they've been defrauded or not - the police should investigate it properly.  In this case you are the ultimate victim of the fraud because Aviva are saying that you owe them for the premiums on the policy your brother fraudulently took out, so whether Aviva consider they were the victims of fraud or not is irrelevant - they don't care because you end up as the fall guy.  Point out that this may have ended in a civil dispute over a debt between you and Aviva, but that that debt directly arises as a result of your brother's fraud in claiming to be acting on your behalf and by impersonating your brother.   One of the reasons the police seem to have dropped this case (and this needs to be one of your main grounds of complaint I think) is that they have accepted without question your brother's statement that your husband was somehow involved or in some way agreed to your brother taking this policy out in your name, and the police have simply and uncritically accepted your brother's word on that without ever speaking to your husband, who would vigourously deny it.    (I can't make any better suggestion than that because, to be honest, I don't follow what has happened.  If you never authorised your brother to open this insurance policy at all then I don't understand why the police would place any importance at all on your husband being present at a meeting with your brother.  What did your husband's presence have to do with the insurance policy?  Even if he had been at such meeting (which you say he denies) then how could he authorise anything on your behalf?  None of it makes any sense to me and I can't see why the police would think it did.)   Challenge the police to explain to you why they believe there is insufficient evidence to pass this on to the CPS   I would follow the published complaints procedure of the police force in question and I would also send a copy to your local Police and Crime Commissioner.   I think the main problem here is that (despite what the nice woman PC may have suggested to you) the police have never considered you to be the victim.  You need to demonstrate to them via your complaint that you are the victim here.   One other question: is your husband and are your family supporting you through this, or are you going it alone?
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Used car purchased online from Gem Cars Ltd, Lincoln not in condition as described. Small Claims??...


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I wonder if anyone may be able to help.

 

I recently purchased a 10 year old used car online based upon the dealer walk round video and excellent dealer reviews 4.8 stars (dealer 150 miles away). This I had thought to be very detailed and honest as he stated that there were only very minor age related marks which he would point out on the way round. However, after the car was delivered by a outsourced company I looked around it and immediately noticed that the bonnet was not in the condition described. In fact it is in far worse condition than my almost 20 year old car bonnet was! There were some other things not as described, only I don't consider them to be an issue. The invoice stated I will be given opportunity to look around the car upon delivery and this did not happen either.

 

Description:  "Bonnet; if we look closely, we might find the odd little stone chip here and there that have been touched in.... little one there, very difficult to see. Little one there, look. So, it's got the odd little stone chip on the front of the bonnet edge, apart from that it's very very clean." 

Actual: There are hundreds of stone chips in various sizes over the bonnet. The larger of which have been very poorly touched in with a cream colour paint (car is white).

 

To cut a very long story short:

The dealer said I could not get these done by a chip repair company as there are hundreds, and that it would need respraying. He offered me £150 over the phone, which I accepted as he had told me that's what it would cost him, but it might cost me £200. Since found out the cheapest I can get the bonnet resprayed for is £350 and that is without blending the colour into the wings.

 

I emailed to say he had clearly mislead me with the description etc. to which he replied he would not sell a car to someone who insulted and bullied him???!! I was clear that I wanted to keep the car as other than this issue I am happy with it. Negotiations continued with some offers from the dealer which would have cost me half the costs of collection and delivery (approx. £200) or inconvenienced me greatly.

 

also offered a full refund (he clearly doesn't want a bad review). I still wish to keep the car so rejected this. The dealer stated he did not want to negotiate any further and that I should return the car to him. I mentioned trading standards and emailed the photos I had taken of the bonnet. I also stated that I did not expect full cost from him (without knowing my rights at the time).

 

He emailed with an offer for a further £112.50 (total £262.50) to which I replied after seeking advice on my consumer rights, i.e. that it should not cost me anything to rectify etc. He responded by stating I had forced him to seek legal advice and formally retracted all previous offers. Mediation is now taking place, the mediator told me that they think I am not entitled to anything as I initially accepted £150 and the dealer had offered me a full refund. I have since received an email from the mediator suggesting the full refund or further £112.50 towards repair is now be back on the table?! 

 

I sought further advice and was told that I am within my rights to ask for the full cost of repairs from the dealer under the Consumer Rights Act. This issue should not cost me anything to rectify nor should it inconvenience me.

 

I now have to consider whether to take this to Trading Standards and possibly the Small Claims Court. I want the dealer to pay the repair shop directly for the cost of respraying the bonnet and not necessarily for blending the colour onto the wings as I do not want to be unreasonable. I know I didn't necessarily deal with this well from the start as I didn't get the facts before entering into negotiations. I am just so upset with the way the dealer has been quite rude and sarcastic in his email correspondence throughout and just want the car as it was described.

 

Would anyone have any idea whether this is a case that is likely to go in my favour if I end up taking it to small claims? This has already caused a considerable amount of time and stress :(

 

Thank you in advance.

 

Edited by dx100uk
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name names please

please don't hit Quote...just type we know what we said earlier..

DCA's view debtors as suckers, marks and mugs

NO DCA has ANY legal powers whatsoever on ANY debt no matter what it's Type

and they

are NOT and can NEVER  be BAILIFFS. even if a debt has been to court..

If everyone stopped blindly paying DCA's Tomorrow, their industry would collapse overnight... 

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As requested by my site team colleague at above, you should give us the details of the dealer who supplied you with this vehicle.

Also you say that you have been referred to some kind of mediation service. What is that mediation service please?

Did you pay by cash or by bank transfer or did you use a credit card?

Also, when did you buy the car? How much did you pay? Tell us something about the car including make, model, and mileage.

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Hi, I'm a little weary of posting the car dealer name and the mediation service (is a car specialist mediation service to which the dealer is affiliated) on a public platform as this is an ongoing issue. I hope this is ok?...

 

The car was paid for with an initial deposit of £200 online via debit card and the balance by bank transfer,

 

I purchased the car at the beginning of this month for £4,395. It is a VW Golf Mk6 2011 1.4TSi Match 5 Door. Mileage 117,500.

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I'm afraid that if you don't give us this kind of information then we are unlikely to be able to help you very much.

 

Car dealer identities are essential. We can access lots of information about these people and find out how reliable or otherwise they have been with other people in the past.

Very often getting a decision in your favour is relatively straightforward but enforcing the decision can be very difficult.

There is no official motoring mediation service. There is a professional body which tends to serve the motor trade and generally finds against the customer.

It is clear that you may have been misled as to the condition of the car – and who knows what else. The story you are giving us that you have bought a vehicle at a long distance from you and then the balance was paid by bank transfer is a very common story and I'm afraid it is the beginnings of a very difficult situation.

There is even one firm of dealers that has been trading under different names and has even started its own mediation service which it recommends that its customers go to when there is a dispute. However, the customers do not realise that the "mediation service" is actually the dealer's own pet project and which inevitably finds against the customer.

Trading standards are aware of this and haven't done very much about it at all yet.

If you think that somehow or other you are going to suffer disadvantage by publishing the name of the dealer that you are involved with and I'm afraid that you are mistaken. You simply bring comfort to those dealers and do yourself a great disservice.

 

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Thank you for your comments and I understand where you are coming from. 

 

The dealer is Gem Cars Ltd, Lincoln.

 

www.gemcarsltd.co.uk

 

 

They're a husband and wife team who I had thought from their Google reviews were different. They appear to be legitimate as I have looked them up on Companies House, although interestingly the wife is the sole owner and the husband is the owner of another company for maintenance and repair of motor vehicles.

 

The ADR mediator is the AA and the dealer is signed up to the AA dealer promise. However, the AA mediator sent me an email stating to let her know whether I want to accept a full refund or the further £112.50 after telling me that the dealer had covered their obligations and are not obligated to offer me anything now due to me initially accepting the £150 and them offering a full refund?!

 

One of the points I raised to the dealer was that the car was priced on the high side (to which he stated it was £400 under value, but having done my research it appears I am right). I didn't mind this because of the all round fantastic condition described, the one lady owner and full service history.

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Thank you for the information. The fact that the AA it is the mediator is reassuring. However I'm afraid that it is certainly not a good idea to pay by bank transfer because you have surrendered all your rights which you would have enjoyed under the consumer credit act 1975. That Act places responsibilities on the finance company or credit card company and makes them equally liable with the dealer.

If the full refund is still on the table then my suggestion is that you take it quickly. If you look at the horror stories on this forum, you will discover that your circumstances fit neatly into the profile.
You have bought a motorcar relying simply on the advertisement and without seeing it. The motorcar is a considerable distance from you. You have paid by bank transfer.
Although you may feel that you have bought yourself a cheap motorcar, you haven't factored in all the difficulties that come with buying a car 150 miles away. If defects need to be repaired – then it's 150 mile journey each way. If the car breaks down completely then it's 150 miles of vehicle transportation and no doubt an argument with the dealer about who is responsible. In fact you would be the dealer who would be responsible but I'm afraid that the costs of transporting a vehicle that kind of distance will always lead to an argument.

 

We have lots of dealers on this forum who have not stepped up to their obligations and who have managed to avoid attempts to enforce judgements against them and most of them are on Companies House and appear to be completely legitimate.

What is it about Gem Cars Ltd, Lincoln which made you think that they are especially legitimate? Of course they might be – we haven't checked yet – but why did they appear to be any different from any other used-car dealer which trades as a limited liability company and which is registered on Companies House?

I would suggest that you go for the full refund but also you had better find out who is going to take responsibility for getting the car back to the dealer and pay the cost of this.

I'm afraid that my view is that if you decide to settle for some reimbursement of the purchase price because of the defects that you have found, that you will find yourself in further difficulty down the line if the car starts to exhibit other problems.
 

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  • BankFodder changed the title to Used car purchased online from Gem Cars Ltd, Lincoln not in condition as described. Small Claims??...

I have had a quick look for this company and I have to say that what I'm finding is rather reassuring. So far I can't find any particular evidence that raises particular suspicions that they are an untrustworthy dealer.

As already said, it is very comforting that they appear to be happy to use the AA as a mediator. It may be that our first concerns when we had the story are unfounded.
However, it is still a bad idea to buy a car at a considerable distance and also to pay by bank transfer.

Is the refund still on the table? Do you still prefer to keep the car?

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Thank you for your responses, and yes I may have been naïve in purchasing a car online :(

 

I was looking for a specific model as recommended from my research, and this was the closest to me at what I had thought a fantastic all round condition for its year and priced as such! These aren't easy to find.

 

I don't think they are necessarily an untrustworthy dealer generally. I think they just hoped I wouldn't notice or be bothered by it. From a distance you probably wouldn't notice, and in bright sunlight they are harder to see, but I have attached a PDF with photos.

 

I'm unsure whether anything is still on the table (they wanted me to return the car) and I'm afraid I don't find the AA a reassuring mediator given that she appears to have contradicted herself already. Also, what she is telling me is different from what the CTSI are. I do still want to keep the car though (I know...)

Car Bonnet Photos.pdf

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Have you had the car checked over? Have you had it MOT'd?

I know that you're going to tell us that it has come with an MOT so that it doesn't need one – however, getting an MOT will be very cheap way of doublechecking its basic condition.
I would urge you to get the car MOT'd and to get a general health check from a garage which you trust.

I'm sure that it came with an MOT. Is it a recent MOT? What is the address of the MOT station which carried out that test?

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I haven't but it's M.O.T is June and did pay for a car check and all looks fine.

 

Thank you for your advice, it is all valuable advice. 

 

I was hoping to find someone who could advise me on whether I should continue to push for full repair cost as the AA mediator has contradicted herself and it feels like they just want me to give in. I have been advised I under the Consumer Rights Act that the car (bonnet) is not in condition as advertised and therefore the dealer should pay full costs to rectify, irrespective of whether I initially accepted the £150 and refused a refund to return the car.

 

I believe the dealer is legitimate and that they do not supply dodgy cars, just in this case I think they were just hoping I wouldn't notice or be overly bothered. Plus, I was upset and angered by their rude and belittling comments in each communication and fired responses across without firstly knowing my rights.

 

Would a generally decent car dealer really want Trading Standards involved or small claims court over what I'm basically asking for is further £200 (total of £350 for bonnet respray) not the £112.50 offered (if indeed still on the table). I am thinking that I would pay for the blending into the wings to be flexible/fair, which is another £100.

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You have certainly damage your interest by accepting money for the bonnet.

On what condition did you pay the money?

You say that they don't supply dodgy cars but on the other hand you say that you thought they were just hoping that you wouldn't notice or be overly bothered about the damage to the bonnet.
I'm afraid that I see very little difference between that and being a dodgy dealer. At the end of the day, if you are right that they hope that you wouldn't bother or wouldn't notice, then clearly they were trying to get away with fogging you off with something which was not as described.

In our book this is completely unacceptable.



You talk sometimes about getting trading standards involved – but I'm afraid it's not as easy as you think. Unless you know somebody in the organisation, you have no direct access to trading standards. You would simply have to log it with Citizens Advice – and they will entry onto the trading standards database but then nothing will be done by trading standards unless they get such a substantial number of complaints about that particular organisation that it moves to the top of the queue.

Citizens advice will do very little for you except simply advise you to write letters and they won't guide you through anything more. I'm afraid that citizens advice are rather unambitious about helping people enforce their consumer rights.

Tell us how the payment was made and whether there was any written agreement which accompanied it.

 

Who did you pay for the car check?

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Yes, you are right and it is unacceptable.

 

He called me back after I complained to his wife and told me it would cost him £150 to rectify, but would likely be £200 here. So he offered me £150 and I said ok. They transferred the money into my account and emailed to confirm, I responded with a thank you, but I have yet to get any quotes. There was no written agreement as such.

 

I have been talking with the Chartered Trading Standards Institute who have been advising me, although I stated that I did not want my data etc shared with anyone so they have not passed any information through to Trading Standards based upon this.

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Hi there, my name is Zac. I've been browsing CAG for a year now as a guest and never registered before. I felt that this was an issue I had to chime in for.

 

I actually rang this company up myself and this just an honest, local run business with lots of good car sales. I think it isn't reasonable that the site staff above said (dx in specific) that the mediator was just ran by the business owners friends and is most likely a scam.

 

The mediator is actually AA as stated by the original post creator. I don't think it was very fair for dx to automatically assume that because the car industry isn't regulated as such that it is automatically a scam and that post should really be redacted as it's not factual and based on his own personal experience.

 

In this case I think the AA arbitrator is correct Julia. The dealership offered a full refund and you bring the car back. The dealership also offered to pay most of the cost of the paint. Considering the car is very old, general wear and tear is acceptable and the dealership have been reasonable by offering you a full refund. Julia, save yourself the hassle. If you are not happy with the product do what any normal person would in the circumstance and return it for a full refund. 

 

Based on how I've seen the way dx (the site administrator) constantly ask for the dealership name and how he/she immediately assumed the arbitrator would've been a scam I don't think I'll be coming on this site any longer. 

 

Maybe Fodder needs to switch positions with dx.

 

Regards

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited by Guest
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Hi Zac,

 

Also, you mention the comments of the site team. Whilst I understand your comments, I believe that on forums it's common place to comment given your own experiences and people can make up their own minds as to content posted. 


The issue is not about what is acceptable with car being old, my old car was almost twice that age and the bonnet in a far better condition. If the dealer was upfront about this it would have been my choice and I could have negotiated based upon this. I did not negotiate a discount for the car and had accepted the odd little (barely noticeable) stone chip on the front edge of the bonnet, as that was what I was expecting. I also accepted other little things here and there due to the age of the car even though not as advertised. What is acceptable is the car in the condition as clearly advertised. 

 

Your comment on thinking the AA are correct also contradicts what I have been told by the CTSI. As Honeybee asked, do you have any experience or expertise in this area, or is this just your opinion as a lay person? I have explained in the thread why I want to keep the car. I'm not sure what you mean by what any normal person would do, but I do understand that you are entitled to voice your opinion. I'm just confused by why you would join now after a year browsing this forum to comment on this particular post and why you would call the dealer... and deduce from that that they are just an honest, local run business with lots of good car sales. Although I agree this is likely the case, did you see the photos I uploaded of the bonnet?

 

This may well seem like a minor issue to you (or perhaps not, considering you joined specifically to comment). However, this for me was a high value purchase of a carefully researched model of car I had been specifically looking for (in a fantastic condition for year, which it is apart from the bonnet) within my budget. 

Edited by Julia71
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Hi Zac,

 

You mention the comments of the site team. Whilst I understand your comments, I believe that on forums it's common place to comment given your own experiences and people can make up their own minds as to content posted. 

 

Your comment on thinking the AA are correct also contradicts what I have been told by the CTSI. As Honeybee asked, do you have any experience or expertise in this area, or is this just your opinion as a lay person?

 

The issue is not about what is acceptable with car being old, my old car was almost twice that age and the bonnet in a far better condition. If the dealer was upfront about this it would have been my choice and I could have negotiated based upon this. I did not negotiate a discount for the car and had accepted the odd little (barely noticeable) stone chip on the front edge of the bonnet, as that was what I was expecting. I also accepted other little things here and there due to the age of the car even though not as advertised. What is acceptable is the car in the condition as clearly advertised. 

 

I have explained in the thread why I want to keep the car. I'm not sure what you mean by what any normal person would do, but I do understand that you are entitled to voice your opinion. I'm just confused by why you would join now after a year browsing this forum to comment on this particular post and why you would call the dealer... and deduce from that that they are just an honest, local run business with lots of good car sales. Although I agree this is likely the case, did you see the photos I uploaded of the bonnet?

 

This may well seem like a minor issue to you (or perhaps not, considering you joined specifically to comment). However, this for me was a high value purchase of a carefully researched model I had been looking for (in a fantastic condition for year, which it is... apart from the bonnet) within my budget. 

Edited by Julia71
APOLOGIES, THIS IS AN EDIT OF THE POST ABOVE; LEFT IT AND WHEN I RETURNED IT WAS TOO LATE TO EDIT. JUST AMENDED SO IT READS IN ORDER OF ZAC'S COMMENT.
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GEM CARS LTD 

Is looking forward to the comments from the administrators and moderators now the full facts in this case are here for all to see 

I would add that from the above transcript it appears claire has had a full vehicle inspection done and they didnt find any faults with the car. 

I would also add that it appears she wants to keep the car because apart from the stone chips the car is in fantastic condition for its year 

Personally i would rather refund her in full and have the car back 

Regards 

Mark 

Gem Cars 

 

RESPONSE FROM GEM CARS

having received a random phome call from a gentleman today informing me that someone had left a scathing review about our company i have read all of the emails in this review and quite frankly im discusted at not only our customer but also this website 

Having taken legal advice my understanding is that due to the case being in mediation at this stage,  naming and shaming and posting non factual information is without a doubt slander for which we have authorised a solicitor to act on our behalf 

But just to make sure everyone on here has all the facts i will post all of the email correspondence between oursleves and the customer 

Hopefully you will see we have gone above and beyond in this case 

Hopefully you will notice the last paragraph of this customers first email is blackmail and bullying 

To comply with GDPR i have removed names and email addresses 

We asked this customer what would make her happy i offered £150 compensation so i instantly semt £150 compensation then this email arrived 

 

Having thought about our conversation, it’s clear that you knowingly deceived me with the condition of the car bonnet. You clearly stated in your video that there were a few tiny stone chips along the front edge of the bonnet which had been touched in. This is to be expected in a used car and I totally accepted that. There are also a few other minor chips and a tiny dent (as mentioned) which is not noticeable and expected with a used car.
 
During our conversation it was clear that you knew about the state of the bonnet and said you had asked the man who cleaned the car prior to delivery how it looked. You then said to me that there are hundreds of stone chips over the bonnet, and that it would need respraying. It’s clear to me now that you were just hoping I wouldn’t notice.
 
I have now had two different carefully sourced independents tell me that it will cost £350 & £355 (cheapest prices I have found) to respray the bonnet. Whilst also advising me that the front wings would ideally need to be done as well to blend in. This would take the cost to around £550! Not the £150-200 stated by yourself and have been told by several businesses that I would not be able to get this done (properly) for that price anywhere in the country. Therefore, I feel I have been deceived yet again on this.
 
As mentioned, I chose and purchased the car due to the condition described (I had thought) very honestly in your video walkthrough and advertisement details. Also due to your amazing reviews on Google.
 
The car was priced at the higher end of the spectrum for the model and mileage, but I was happy with that due to the alleged fantastic overall condition. I have also been told that the stone chips would have been better off left alone as they have clearly been touched in badly and ineffectively.
 
Not only am I having to run around finding the best independents to look at the car, but I have clearly been compensated dishonestly.
 
You asked me what would make me happy, and I am now in a position where I know the true costs. I would be happy to go through the hassle of getting the bonnet resprayed (not the wings) if you were to reimburse me for the real cost of the job. 
 
Please do not be concerned with regards to a review, as I will not be leaving one until this matter is fully resolved.
 
Regards
Claire

 

GEM CARS REPLY TO THIS EMAIL

 

Hi Claire

 

You are obviously upset which we don’t want

So I have a couple of solutions below

I must say I’m not grumpy or mardy or angry or upset.

I’m not trying to have a go or start an argument but your email did sadden me greatly

I always work better with people that talk things over rather than going straight for the jugular

Anyway I have addressed the comments in your email matter of fact and I have some solutions below

My main priority is your happiness with the car and the outcome, but unfortunately I wont be bullied into paying over the odds for a repair

You need to appreciate that to fully paint the bonnet is betterment as such its not fair to expect the full amount especially as I have sent you the full amount that we would pay already.

As you have already said neither of us needs to be thinking about your stone chips all weekend so hopefully this email will be the last one

 

If its ok I will address each paragraph one at a time

 

1; I didn’t deliberately deceive anyone I clearly state that the bonnet has odd stone chips here and there and odd stone chips on the front edge (I’ve just watched my video to be sure) (those are my exact words) (please feel free to double check I’ve left the video up for you)

If I had said no stone chips or one or two stone chips (like I have on other videos)  then I would agree with you but I clearly stated (odd stone chips here and there)

Exactly how many stone chips would you feel is acceptable on a 10 year old car with 117000 miles on ?

My wife’s brand new golf R with 5000 miles on the clock has 6 already

 

2; You state that its clear I already knew how bad the bonnet was because I asked our valeter, This is untrue because after you called my wife to complain I then asked the valeter if he noticed the bonnet being particularly bad before I called you back as I couldn’t remember it being that bad, Also you asked if you could get a chips away type company to just come and touch them in, I simply said there are 100s of tiny chips and it would be cheaper to paint the bonnet this was just a generalisation not an exact count of the stone chips (as I said I had to ask the valeter if the bonnet was really that bad as I could not remember)

Any more than 20 chips would be too many for a chips away type repair

I hardly counted all the stone chips

During our conversation this is exactly what I said

 

3; You accuse me of deceiving you when I stated that it costs us £150 plus vat to have a bonnet painted

I have sent you the copy of our pricing structure from our paint shop

I told you the truth I have no reason to lie feel free to call them on Monday and check for yourself

If you see option 1 below and decide to bring it to us I will happily give you a copy of the bill  

 

4; My 18 Minute video was completely honest and I did not try to deceive anyone with the video

We have sold over 300 cars off the back of my videos and you are the first person to complain

I would ask you did I state in my video that the car had no stone chips?

Did I say one or two stone chips?

NO I DIDN’T  I clearly stated odd stone chips here and there which is exactly what it has as you would expect.

I would add that when you called to complain I kindly sent you the full cost that we pay to have a full bonnet painted I didn’t argue the case as most car dealers would as we pride ourselves on our levels of customer service I simply asked you what you would be happy with as compensation and you said £150 so I sent you £150 instantly to your bank.

 

5; You state that the car was priced at the higher end of the market for the year and mileage yet on our Car Gurus checker it showed as £400 behind market value

When you checked the prices were the other cars you looked at all one lady owner white 5 door cars with full service history (as this makes a huge difference in price)

So NO I disagree our car was very fairly priced and not at the higher end

The condition of the car was fantastic for a 10 year old 120000 mile car you have said yourself you are happy with it apart from the stone chips on the bonnet so I’m struggling to understand what you mean by alleged condition?

If you don’t touch stone chip in, the metal goes rusty so no I disagree you should always touch stone chips in

 

6; You accuse me of compensating you dishonestly when I simply asked you what would make you happy and you agreed £150 which I sent you straight away

I would also add that you negotiated an additional £100 off the car after you had bought it as I kindly paid half the delivery for you.

When you purchase items from other stores how often do you get a discount after you have agreed to buy the item?

So you actually have £250 towards the stone chips.

 

7; No disrespect intended by I have already reimbursed you for what would be my full costs  

 

8; I’m unsure what you mean by “Please do not be concerned with regards to a review, as I will not be leaving one until this matter is fully resolved”

To me that sounds like bullying and blackmail but I could be misreading it?

 

Even though I found your email very rude I still have 3 amicable solutions to offer you

 

1; Refund us the £150 I sent you then bring the car back and have a day out in Lincoln, it’s a beautiful place to visit we have one of the biggest cathedrals in Europe (used in the hit film the da Vinci code) the castle is stunning and the cathedral quarter has some lovely places to shop and eat we also have a large Primark

We will drop you to get the train into Lincoln central and whilst you shop and eat we will get the bonnet painted for you we will give you an additional £20 towards food and fuel on us and then collect you in the afternoon and you can drive you car home with the newly painted bonnet.

 

2; Accept a full refund for the car and we will collect it next week

 

3; Accept the fact that it is a 10 year old car with 117000 miles it does have stone chips, we didn’t deliberately mislead you, we did send you £150 towards the repairs and pay half your delivery so buy yourself a Genuine colour pen for the car (£15) touch the chips in with the right colour and spend the rest on a spa day

 

Sincerely

Mark and Gina  

 

CLAIRES RESPONSE TO OUR EMAIL

 

Hi Mark,
 
I have addressed the fact that I do not bully or blackmail and am mortified you would take it that way! 
 
I will address your comments by paragraph also:
  1. My issue is not about how many stone chips anyone would expect, or how many there are on your wife’s car. it is about what you stated in your video which is not up on your website now.
  2. You did not mention when you asked the man who cleaned the car prior to delivery, just that you had. Then when I asked you whether they could be rectified by way of individual chips, you said to me I could not as there were hundreds and it would need respraying (and yes, I had assumed this was an estimate not that you had counted them). This to me indicated that you knew the bonnet had more than just the odd stone chip here and there on the front of the bonnet.
  3. I stated I felt you had deceived me, because as I stated before I have been told this by professional sprayers who have been in the business a very long time. Yes, you mentioned over the phone that I was the first person to complain in over 50 cars. 
  4. Your video was under 17 minutes and appeared as if you were pointing everything out on it including the odd stone chips to the front of the bonnet. Eco a toy what I would expect is how it was shown and described. Yes, I am happy with the car itself apart from this issue. The odd stone chip touched in here and there on the bonnet was what was described and expected.
  5. I do my research and Car Gurus checker is one of many market values. Also, from the cars I had checked (and yes, a few were one owner with full service history. One with a few more miles on the clock and another with less). I did not state that stone chips should not be touched in, but that I had been told they were done badly and ineffectively and that they would have been better off left alone (which I took in the context of the conversation to mean being done properly by a professional).
  6. You asked me what would make me happy after telling me the cost would be £150 for you or more like £200 here to have the work done you had told me. I had not negotiated any discount off the car at all and had reserved at the price advertised. My ex husband was in the car business and it is anticipated and wholly accepted to negotiate prices on used cars. This can not be compared with a a general store purchase. I purchased a large value item which was not as described. The delivery cost is what was negotiated, nothing else.
  7. You reimbursed for a job which I can not get done for anywhere near the price.
  8. Yes you are certainly misreading it as I explained in our earlier communication! I am sorry if you took this the wrong way and I should have elaborated that at the time. If you need this clarified, I would be happy to get you character witnesses to confirm to you that I am the opposite sort of person to even consider that type of behaviour.
I apologise again that you found my email very rude, it was not meant that way at all. I am just really upset by this whole thing.
 
Whether your offers are meant to be rude or not, I find some of the comments as such.
 
As mentioned in our earlier communications, all I want is the car in the condition as advertised. I am still happy for you to collect the car, rectify the issue and deliver back to me or a refund closer to the cost of this. Although I trust the quotes I have, I can keep searching for a cheaper price. The bonnet is not in the condition as advertised (I can count and document tomorrow in daylight if you’d like). 
 
Regards
Claire

 

G CARS RESPONSE TO CLAIRES EMAIL

 

Hi Claire

When you get the bonnet painted on the golf please ask the repairing garage to email us a vat receipt in the name of Gemcars ltd and we will pay another £112.50 contribution towards the repairs directly to the garage. 

This can be done on the same day so it will not affect the garage releasing the car to you

We can pay this directly to them via card over the phone

This will bring the total contribution to £262.50 which equates to ¾ of the total cost

Normally we would contribute 50% in a betterment situation but as you obviously feel very strongly about this matter on this occasion we will pay ¾ of your £350 quotation as full and final settlement in this matter

Should you feel this is still not acceptable then you can of course bring it to us and we will have the bonnet painted whilst you wait at no cost to yourself  (apart from a few hours of your time)

 

Sincerely

Mark and Gina

 

CLAIRES REPLY 😳

Hi Mark,
 
Having sought further advice on this matter, I am now clear as to the finer details of my consumer rights.
 
Your offer to rectify this issue is no longer a suitable option, as it would cause me considerable inconvenience. Additionally, this option would only have been viable if you were to collect and delivery my car free of charge. Additionally, this remedy is no longer suitable due to the fact I have completely lost faith in your business.
 
I am within my rights to a price reduction of the full cost of works to rectify this. I am of course happy for you to pay the spraying business directly upon receipt of a V.A.T invoice for your records.
 
Regards
Claire

 

GEM CARS 

for complete clarity feel free to watch the video in which i not only show the stone chips on the 10 year old golf with 117000 miles i also tell you they are there

 

 

GEM CARS POST 

CLAIRES LAST EMAIL

 

Mark,
 
My apologies, I forgot to ask that you please respond to the above email within 7 days.
 
Regards
Claire
 
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I've looked at the video. It's very nicely presented video and I think it's a great way to present a used car to potential purchasers. It seems to be very nicely put together and comprehensive.

It draws attention to the stone chips on the bonnet but of course I don't know whether it has drawn attention to all of them. On the other hand, when I look at the pictures that you have supplied the stone chips are much more serious than they appear to be in the video.

I think it would need an independent person to look at the stone chips directly and then to watch the video and see whether in fact the stone chips have been underplayed.

I have to say that this dealer seems to be quite impressive compared to the majority of used-car dealers who find their names on this forum. It's impressive that they seem to be communicating although clearly relations between you have broken down.
I do think that their original cash offer is pretty derisory but I think it's very impressive that they are now prepared to offer your refund and organise collection at 150 miles away.

All this says quite a lot about the dealer and I have to say that compared to many of the dealers we find in this forum I would feel more comfortable about buying a vehicle from them than most others that I'm aware of.
On the other hand, your photographs of the stone chips are really quite dramatic and I have to say that if that really represents what they are then I would be extremely concerned as well.

I think there are other factors here. I've already pointed out that if you have other defects which need to be dealt with at some point by this dealer and it may well be that you will have to return the car 150 miles back to the dealership for them to attend to them. This is expensive and time-consuming – especially if it will take more than a day to address the problem. This means you would either have to stay the night or you would have to organise return travel – once again very time consuming and of course expensive.

Imagine if the car happened to break down completely and it was a question of returning it to the dealership, you might then be saddled with the cost of transporting it to the dealer.

The second very serious matter now is that relations between you have broken down and there is a great deal of animosity and suspicion.

This may partly be because they are being discussed on this forum – but also it is clear that your initial dialogue with them was quite conflict oriented. Of course I can understand that you were very disappointed and angry when you found that the condition of the car was not what you had been led to believe.
However I suppose it might have been better to adopt a more careful approach at the outset until you had tested the reaction of the dealer. If they had then been obstructive, then of course you would be right to change your style of approach.

I do think that in the circumstances you should take the refund and allow the vehicle to be collected and put it down to experience. It's a nice looking car, and it may well be generally in good condition but because of your feeling about the cosmetic condition and your feeling about what was represented to you and what you in fact received – coupled with the breakdown in relations between you and the dealer, I think you would be much safer out of it.

 

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53 minutes ago, BankFodder said:

I've looked at the video. It's very nicely presented video and I think it's a great way to present a used car to potential purchasers. It seems to be very nicely put together and comprehensive.

It draws attention to the stone chips on the bonnet but of course I don't know whether it has drawn attention to all of them. On the other hand, when I look at the pictures that you have supplied the stone chips are much more serious than they appear to be in the video.

I think it would need an independent person to look at the stone chips directly and then to watch the video and see whether in fact the stone chips have been underplayed.

I have to say that this dealer seems to be quite impressive compared to the majority of used-car dealers who find their names on this forum. It's impressive that they seem to be communicating although clearly relations between you have broken down.
I do think that their original cash offer is pretty derisory but I think it's very impressive that they are now prepared to offer your refund and organise collection at 150 miles away.

All this says quite a lot about the dealer and I have to say that compared to many of the dealers we find in this forum I would feel more comfortable about buying a vehicle from them than most others that I'm aware of.
On the other hand, your photographs of the stone chips are really quite dramatic and  if that really represents what they are then I would be extremely concerned as well.

I think there are other factors here. I've already pointed out that if you have other defects which need to be dealt with at some point by this dealer and it may well be that you will have to return the car 150 miles back to the dealership for them to attend to them. This is expensive and time-consuming – especially if it will take more than a day to address the problem. This means you would either have to stay the night or you would have to organise return travel – once again very time consuming and of course expensive.

Imagine if the car happened to break down completely and it was a question of returning it to the dealership, you might then be saddled with the cost of transporting it to the dealer.

The second very serious matter now is that relations between you have broken down and there is a great deal of animosity and suspicion.

This may partly be because they are being discussed on this forum – but also it is clear that your initial dialogue with them was quite conflict oriented. Of course I can understand that you were very disappointed and angry when you found that the condition of the car was not what you had been led to believe.
However I suppose it might have been better to adopt a more careful approach at the outset until you had tested the reaction of the dealer. If they had then been obstructive, then of course you would be right to change your style of approach.

I do think that in the circumstances you should take the refund and allow the vehicle to be collected and put it down to experience. It's a nice looking car, and it may well be generally in good condition but because of your feeling about the cosmetic condition and your feeling about what was represented to you and what you in fact received – coupled with the breakdown in relations between you and the dealer, I think you would be much safer out of it.

 

This. I think it's best just to return the car and receive a full refund at this point. Thank you Fodder, that's a well written response there😁

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I understand where you are coming from Bankfodder, and agree that I have not handled the situation well from the start. This I told the mediator. 

 

The information I have posted is factual, all I was looking for was some advice.

 

The dealer has not posted the all correspondence on here, so I have uploaded a pdf with all correspondence, video screenshots and photos of the bonnet. 

car correspondence and photos etc.pdf

Edited by Julia71
forgot to add your name for response
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Don't worry. I don't think anybody is blaming or criticising you. It's perfectly understandable that you are on edge about it because when you saw the bonnet and it was different to your understanding from the video, I think anybody would have been rather annoyed about it.

Thanks for uploading material. It's all very useful and it seems to me that relations rather deteriorated on both sides.

Please keep us updated and let us know what you want to do.

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Well if you are still minded to hang onto it then I would put it in for a full proper check and a new MOT.

But I would get it done quickly

 

 

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Hi Bank Fodder 

Thankyou for taking the time to reply in such detail 

We always go above and beyond for all our customers and this is the first customer in over 2000 cars  that we have been unfortunately unable to keep happy 

If you dont mind i would just like to clarify a few points 

1: Section 75 covers you for the entire purchase amount even if you only pay a £10 deposit with the card

We actively encourage every customer to use a card for there deposit for just this reason 

2: We put a six month fully comprehensive warranty on nearly every car we sell which you can use at any vat registered garage so nobody needs to bring a car back 150 miles 

3: The initial £150 was more than fair, we pay £180 inc vat to have a bonnet painted please feel free to contact our bodyshop GT autobody and paint solutions 07792728174 should we be required to go to small claims i can provide bank statements and invoices going back 5 years to collaborate this if necessary 

4: If the car did need to come back here for any reason we have a fully insured loan car which is completely free of charge and even comes with fuel

5: When claire sent the photos we counted 14 stone chips in total she has zoomed in so they look huge when in fact they are minor and as she has admitted on here (difficult to spot in sunlight) 

6: We are not in fact in breach of consumer law, in fact we are far from it, Consumer law allows for the car to be in a fair condition allowing for wear and tear relating to age and mileage, we didnt hide the stone chips we openly pointed them out so how can we be in breach? 

7: Claire asked for £150 i gave her £150

8: Claire asked for a bigger contribution i offered a bigger contribution

9: Claire changed her mind again and decided she wanted a brand new bonnet payed for exclusively by me at 3 times the price it would normally cost me without making a contribution herself, add to this the fact that her first email was blackmail at best and i kept my kool and replied respectfully as we have throughout 

Im sorry but thats were we draw the line 

9: I didnt post every email as there are over 30 of them 😳

10: For completeness when we spoke to the AA mediation service and asked them what they would like us to do they informed us we were under no legal obligation to do anything, there opinion was that we had already gone above and beyond what was necessary under consumer rights. 

Personally at this stage we just want to refund her in full and have our car back 

Sincerely 

Mark 

Gem Cars Ltd 

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