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    • My almost ready witness statement ...    In the county court at Middlesbrough Claim No:  Between Vehicle Control Services Limited (Claimant) V   (Defendant) Witness Statement Introduction It is admitted that the Defendant is the registered keeper of XXnn XXX   Locus standi/bye-laws and Relevant land Schedule 4 of the Protection of Freedom Act 2012 (PoFA) allows recovery of unpaid parking charges from the keeper of the vehicle. However, the first paragraph 1 (1) (a) states that it only applies “in respect of parking of the vehicle on relevant land:”. The definition of “relevant land” is given in paragraph 3 (1) where subsection (c) excludes “any land ... on which the parking of a vehicle is subject to statutory control”.  The bus stop is not on relevant land because the public road on which that stand is on is covered by the Road Traffic Act.  Notwithstanding that the claimant claims that " the claimant has given the Defendant its contractual licence to enter the site", the claimant has not given any contractual licence whatsoever. This is a road leading to/from the airport which is covered by the Road Traffic Act.  A list of highways on the Highways act 1980 does not even exist. The defendant brings the attention of the court that VCS is using this non existent document issue as a deliberate strategy to debunk the fact that this road is not relevant land. VCS are put to strict proof that it is relevant land not covered by the Road Traffic Act nor by Byelaws. While it is true that landowners can bring in their own terms, it is also true that whatever terms they bring  cannot overrule Byelaws and the Road Traffic Act. If Bye Laws are involved then the bus stop is not relevant land and neither is the specious argument about First Great Western Ltd. Is the claimant ignorant of the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012? The road outside of Doncaster Sheffield Airport is not relevant land and is not covered by the Protection of Freedoms Act. That makes the charge against the claimant tantamount to fraud or extortion. The claimant mentions a couple occasions where they have won such cases. It is brought to the attention of the court that none of those cited cases were on airport land. VCS actually has also lost a lot more cases than they have won using their prohibitive signs.  Airport land is covered by Bye Laws and hence the claim by VCS is not applicable in this instance. The remit of VCS ends in the car park and does not extend to the bus stops on public roads or land which they have no jurisdiction over. All classes of people go to the airport. This includes travellers, taxis, fuel bowsers, airport staff, companies delivering food and drink for each aircraft, air traffic controllers and buses with passengers. It is therefore absolutely ridiculous to attribute VCS with any sort of permissions. The defendant submits that VCS should not confuse a major thoroughfare with a car park and presume to act as land owners and usurp the control of any land which is not relevant to them.   Alleged contract The court should consider if there is any contract to start with and if the alleged offence is on relevant land. The consideration will inevitably lead the court to conclude that there is no contract.  Also the court should note that there is no valid contract that exists between VCS and Peel. Under the Companies Act, a contract should be signed by the directors of both companies and witnessed by two independent individuals. This alleged contract, which makes no mention of pursuing registered keepers of vehicles to court, makes its first appearance as a Witness Statement. Thus the alleged contract is null and void.  The Beavis case referred to by the claimant is about parking in a car park. The claimant is here attempting to equate that case to stopping, not parking, in a bus stop and on a road that is covered by the Road Traffic Act. The defendant submits that there can be no contract as there is no offer but there is only a prohibition. Again, it is not relevant land and VCS has absolutely no rights over it.   Further, the defendant would like to point out that motorists NEVER accept any contract just by entering the land. First they must read it and understand it and then, and only then can they realise that "No stopping" is prohibitive and cannot offer a contract.   Bus stop signage The signs around the bus stop do not mention who issued the “No Stopping” signs so it could not have been issued by VCS since the IPC CoP states that their signs should include the IPC logo and that the creditor should be identified. Nothing on the signs around the bus stop that says “NO Stopping” mentions VCS or Peel Investments who are now purporting to be the land owners of a public road. As the signage should identify the creditor, since it does not, this is a breach of the CoP.   The Traffic Signs Regulations and General Directions 2016 does not prohibit stopping in a restricted bus stop or stand, it prohibits stopping in a clearway. The defendant would like to ask the court to consider if any clause of the Traffic Signs Regulations and General Directions 2016 that the claimant alleges has been violated by the defendant. There is no mention of permits on the signage. If there were, would it mean that Permit holders were allowed to stop on “No Stopping” roads? Notwithstanding what the claimant calls it, the mentioned signage is NOT a contractual clause. A “No stopping” sign is not an offer of parking terms.  Since the signage around the bus stop is prohibitive, it is as such is incapable of forming a contract. Further, the defendant would like to point out that the prohibitive sign is not actually at the bus stop but a few metres before the stand itself.   There is no mention of a £100 charge for breaching the “No stopping” request, or if there is one then it is far too small to read, even for a pedestrian.   As already stated, a Witness Statement between VCS and Peel Investments is not a valid document.   It will need more than the Claimants feather to outweigh the case against the Defendant regardless of who was driving.   There is no law of agency involved. This is not a case of employer/employee relationship. VCS cannot transfer the driver's liability to the registered keeper.   There can be no comparison between a railway station and an airport. This is a totally fatuous analogy which cannot be applied to this case.     As stated in the defence, it is denied the Claimant is entitled to the recovery or any recovery at all. The nefarious parking charge notice given for a vehicle on a public road bus stop was ill advised to start with.   Conclusion: VCS has failed to present ANY reasonable and valid cause to apply to the DVLA for the Defendants details. VCS has failed to provide ANY valid  contract with the landowners. “No stopping” is prohibitive therefore cannot form a contract the event happened on a bus stop over which VCS has no jurisdiction the signage either does not show that there was a charge of £100 for stopping, or the font size was too small for any motorist to be able to read it  the signage does not show the Creditor which fails the IPC CoP and hence the signage is not valid the WS contract does not authorise VCS to pursue motorists to Court   Given all these factors it seems that VCS have breached the GDPR of the Defendant quite substantially and it would appear right that an exemplary award is made against VCS in the hope that they will drop all further cases at Doncaster airport where they are pursuing motorists on non relevant land.   The Defendant wishes to bring to the attention of the court that the Claimant cites an irrelevant case of a car park and tries to apply its merits to a bus stop. That in itself invalidates the entire fallacious claim.   Accordingly, this case is totally without merit. Some statements are pretty close to perjury and others are designed to mislead or misdirect. None of the analogies seem appropriate or relevant. All the false information presented as a statement of truth could have been stated using half the words and without all the repetition which appears to be trying to build a strong case where there is none at all. One particularly bad example of misdirection is in the photographs. The Clearway sign shown near the bus stop is very unclear unlike the Clearway sign two photos before it which may well include terms and conditions. The one by the bus stop is totally different.
    • I have read that thread. I will need to wait for last date of deferral to get key information to go back to Drydens.   I already asked for them to set aside, they refused but they have sent a message to court suspending warrant of control and put account on hold whilst they answer my SAR. I have also requested SAR to SLC.    
    • you do NOT need to pay it and anyway that would not remove the ccj, its there on your file paid or not for 6yrs, a paid ccj even with a cert of satisfaction is as bad as a non paid one.   the ONLY way to remove it is to set it aside.   sadly you the very worst thing you could have done with ANY debt on your credit file or not that you last used or paid or wrote about to the debt owner in the last 7 yrs....you ran away,,,moved without informing the debt owner of your correct and current address.   erudio and drydens are masters at doing backdoor ccj's. they are ofcourse totally wrong that the defaulted date is the sb date...well not when your last written/signed ack of the debt was more than 6yrs before the claimform date.   now how do you remove it....go read that thread ...carefullly then comeback here and lets see if you understand how.   dx  
    • Thanks, having to move house and discovered this. It's causing a nightmare in trying to rent somewhere and mortgage was also refused by the bank.    Shortly after requesting info I got a warrant in the post from bailifs. Managed to halt that and pause any action till I get key dates to try and get this removed.   Not wanting to avoid paying it, just need the CCJ gone.   Appreciate your help. Will read fully although I am not great with law.
    • Write the letter. It's important that you put this in writing so that you have a paper trail. Send the letter by recorded first class delivery. Explain that because of the defect in the bundle which has manifested itself within 30 days – always refer to the bundle – you are now rejecting it under the consumer rights act 2015 and that you require a refund and you want to know what their arrangements will be for providing you with this. You can also send this by email – but do it straight away. This reserves your rights and after that you have some flexibility as to how you want to act. I understand that they are uncooperative. No surprises. Don't imagine either that they will be fazed by your letter – but the important thing is that you are able to show that you are asserting your rights. After that, they are acting unlawfully We will help you make a claim against them and I suppose that will involve threatening to sue them and maybe even going on to sue them. You will find interesting and you will acquire some transferable skills which will enable you to sue anybody else who gets in your way with a degree of confidence. However, it might be a good idea to mitigate your loss and I would suggest that you accept the money that they have put on the table but make sure that they understand that you are accepting it and you are happy with it and you consider that they still owe you the outstanding £70. If you are asked to sign anything then you should decline and then we will help you claim for the whole lot. However if they don't ask you to sign for anything, then make sure that they have a letter from you at the same time saying thanks very much do for the £250. You are accepting it but this should not be taken as an indication that you are now relinquishing your claim to the rest of the money. Tell us what you want to do – with you want to take the 250 or whether you want to simply reject the lot and claim for the lot. If you want to take the 250 – which I suggest that you do – and if they will give you the money despite the fact that you are still reserve your rights in respect of the balance, then come back here when you have that money and we will help you with the rest. If they refuse to give you the money unless you agree that it is in full settlement, then that becomes very interesting because it becomes very clear evidence that they are beating their obligations under the consumer rights act – and this gives you even greater leverage over them when you decide to confront them. The advantage of mitigating your loss is that there is less to sue for and that means that your court fees will be less – although you will get these back anyway when you win. Also, because they are only fighting to hang onto £70, they are more likely to put their hands up once they know you're serious. There is absolutely nothing to lose and everything to gain by taking the money that is available on the table subject to the reservation which I've indicated above.
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Huge unsecured debt, no assets, very little income. What options?


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A very good friend has managed to rack up about £75,000 in debt, via credit cards and loans.

 

Now, things have took a turn for the worst regarding his work - now he basically does a few jobs cash in hand. He has no assets as such, a car maybe £1000, he lives with his girlfriend ( she owns the property) He does not claim any form of benefits.

 

From what I can gather the various companies have sold the debt to collection agencies, so he is getting bombarded with phone calls and emails.

 

I tried to open the debt must read section but I get error messages.

 

Could somebody point me in the right direction so I can offer so help, he's in a bit of a state - hence me offering to help.

 

Many thanks in advance...

 

Paul

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any chance he can come here himself paul?

 

dx

 

please don't hit Quote...just type we know what we said earlier..

DCA's view debtors as suckers, marks and mugs

NO DCA has ANY legal powers whatsoever on ANY debt no matter what it's Type

and they

are NOT and can NEVER  be BAILIFFS. even if a debt has been to court..

If everyone stopped blindly paying DCA's Tomorrow, their industry would collapse overnight... 

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that link you posted too is a bit out of date too

so dont follow that

 

dx

 

 

please don't hit Quote...just type we know what we said earlier..

DCA's view debtors as suckers, marks and mugs

NO DCA has ANY legal powers whatsoever on ANY debt no matter what it's Type

and they

are NOT and can NEVER  be BAILIFFS. even if a debt has been to court..

If everyone stopped blindly paying DCA's Tomorrow, their industry would collapse overnight... 

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Paul, what are the consequences employment wise, if he applies for bankruptcy ?

 

In this situation, I would think there needs to be a decisive action, otherwise the debt chasing will go on for years and it may put a greater strain on his relationship with his girlfriend, than applying for bankruptcy.

 

But before he goes down that route, we would want a list of the debts with the following information.

 

Date credit/loan applied for, type of credit/loan, amount of credit/loan balance owed and the approx date last payment was made.

We could do with some help from you.

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He works for himself as a builder / decorator so bankruptcy wouldn't affect anything. However, I suspect the fee for bankruptcy could be a problem, as his work is hit and miss. I don't suppose any of the credit card / loans would make him bankrupt, because they won't get anything and it will cost them?

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Yes that is the issue, with no assets, very unlikely creditors will make him bankrupt.

 

Save up the bankruptcy fee amount and do it himself.

 

WWW.GOV.UK

How to apply for bankruptcy: how long it lasts, bankruptcy restrictions, what happens to your home and assets when you're bankrupt

 

We could do with some help from you.

PLEASE HELP US TO KEEP THIS SITE RUNNING EVERY POUND DONATED WILL HELP US TO KEEP HELPING OTHERS

 

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Thanks very much.

It looks like put up with being hounded or go bankrupt.

What are the stages of debt collection, letters, emails, calls. Then, it just carries on until the debt is purchased by someone else?

Is it likely they will take him to court and insist on looking over all his bank accounts etc? I suspect that is an option he will want to avoid , given the nature of some purchases, lots in the pub, meals and generally having a good time. I think he always had the intention at some point of walking away.

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can you get a full list of his debts paul?

don't go BK there are otherways.

 

original Creditor

type of credit

what taken out

amount

defaulted date

who owns the debt now.

 

if you look at threads in the debt selfhelp forum

you'll get the idea how to deal.

 

get all the info FIRST before he does anything.

 

d

please don't hit Quote...just type we know what we said earlier..

DCA's view debtors as suckers, marks and mugs

NO DCA has ANY legal powers whatsoever on ANY debt no matter what it's Type

and they

are NOT and can NEVER  be BAILIFFS. even if a debt has been to court..

If everyone stopped blindly paying DCA's Tomorrow, their industry would collapse overnight... 

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If the debts are fairly recent, he could have letters, court claim threats, actual court claims and many phone calls for a very long time.

 

Provide details of the debts as dx suggests and fully consider the options.

 

Personally, I think £75k worth of debt will be very difficult to negotiate away.   So get advice from organisations that can run through bankruptcy issues to see whether it is the best way or not.

We could do with some help from you.

PLEASE HELP US TO KEEP THIS SITE RUNNING EVERY POUND DONATED WILL HELP US TO KEEP HELPING OTHERS

 

 Have we helped you ...?         Please Donate button to the Consumer Action Group

 

If you want advice on your thread please PM me a link to your thread

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Hi

 

with the list dx100uk has asked in post#9 could you add which companies are chasing each debt.

 

They also need to have a wee check of their Credit File to see what show up on it with these debts it can be done free but you need to register with them to do so and it needs to be who you are helping that does it.

 

credit karma: 

 

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I cannot give any advice by PM - If you provide a link to your Thread then I will be happy to offer advice there.

I advise to the best of my ability, but I am not a qualified professional, benefits lawyer nor Welfare Rights Adviser.

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Thank you all very much. I will get the information of all the outstanding loans etc and come back to you all. if one of them take him to court will he have to disclose all his bank statements etc?

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No ofcourse not

 

THey ve not even sent letters of claim yet 

and if debts are still with original creditor s then they dont do court anyway.

 

 

 

 

please don't hit Quote...just type we know what we said earlier..

DCA's view debtors as suckers, marks and mugs

NO DCA has ANY legal powers whatsoever on ANY debt no matter what it's Type

and they

are NOT and can NEVER  be BAILIFFS. even if a debt has been to court..

If everyone stopped blindly paying DCA's Tomorrow, their industry would collapse overnight... 

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Hello

 

In my view  a self imposed bankruptcy is not necessary.   Your friend just has to accept the situation he is in and set things up to deal with it.

 

I think that by following a plan off filing everything, saying nothing and letting the Creditors do all the work he will come out of it in the end.

 

He may need to get his girlfriend on board but once he understands what these creditors can (and cannot do) it may well become less of a worry and more of a sport!

 

In post #8 you asked for the stages of collection so based on my experience since 2006 I will give you the various stages and make some other comments:

 

  1. You fail to meet a payment date:- the creditor writes a reminder letter

  1. You ignore the letter, they send another letter and possibly emails, SMS and phone calls, all of which are ignored.

  1. The cycle continues for a period of time with a number of letters arriving from the creditor. Sometimes the case will be handed off to a Debt collector for a time which is nothing more than a company set up to make phone calls and write automatic letters. They have no power and can be ignored.

  1. At some point the creditor will issue a Default notice. This is legally important to the Creditor (but not necessarily important to your friend as it is required by the consumer credit act before any other action is taken. It will give a date by which you must do something usually to pay the arrears. If you don’t pay the arrears then you are in Default and they can go to the next stage.

  1. After a period of some months account closure usually follows.

  1. It is unlikely the Creditor will take legal action. After a period of time where you continue to get periodic letters and communications from various debt collectors the debt is sold typically for 10p to 15p in the £ to a Debt buyer. This might take six months or as much as a couple of years.

  1. You receive a “goodbye” letter from the creditor which says it has sold the debt to the buyer.

  1. You receive a “hullo” letter from the debt buyer which tells you that I now owns the debt.

Sometimes the above two are in the same envelope.

 

  1. The debt buyer will start out very friendly but will then get more aggressive. Even at this stage it is best to ignore them. They will sometimes offer you an amount less than the full value to get a quick profit from their purchase. You might want to take advantage of it but I take the view that if they had a strong case to get everything why would they settle for less? They know they have a weak claim when you get this kind of letter.

  1. At some point they will do an assessment on you to decide if it is worth taking court action. The bigger the debt the more likely it is, also if you are seen to have assets such as a property or shares.

  1. They will start by instructing a solicitor to send a Letter Before Action. This states what they think you owe them and gives you a set amount of time to pay it or respond with payment proposals. It may be wise to respond at this point but best to refer it to this forum for proper advice on what to do.

  1. After you fail to respond to the above they will pay a court fee and issue a County court Claim. You will receive a claim pack from the court with a number of sheets of paper; the claim itself, an acknowledgment of service, a defence form. The claim is usually created on line with the solicitor typing in the details. The Court then automatically prints and sends the claim pack. As a result it will not have any supporting documents such as original agreements, statements or anything else.

  1. IMPORTANT: this is the first document you absolutely must respond to. First thing to do is find the paper that says acknowledgment of service and send it back. This gives you 28 days to respond instead of 14. If you don't do this or immediately defend then after 14 days you will automatically loose.

  1. After this you are into the world of defending the claim which is usually very defend-able as the Solicitor has in all likelihood not provided you with any documents. This is because neither he nor his client have any and they will have to go back to the original lender to get any and very likely they will not get them. (In my own experience I helped a friend by writing to ten creditors asking for copies of the original agreement and not one came up with anything).

  2. It is possible you could loose the case in which case you still owe the money and are not much worse of than before because the creditor still has to collect it and without assets it will take a long time to pay off.

 

Overall, though I don’t think it is a great idea to be in debt, given the extent to which your friend is buried my advice is to consider the old adage “If you owe a tenner it is your problem, if you owe Ten thousand it is their problem”.

 

To that extent I would follow this plan:

 

  1. Save all correspondence including the envelopes they arrived in. Do it in chronological order and have separate folders for each debt.

  1. As a rule, ignore everything unless it comes from a solicitor or the Court.

  1. I cannot stress this enough. Be a black hole into which letters, emails, texts and phone calls disappear, never to be answered, replied to or spoken to in any way. Some people just cannot shut up! Make sure your friend does!

  1. The exception is if your friend changes address in which case write to every creditor (or debt buyer that has bought the debt) and advise of change of address WITHOUT signing the letter as such, just type the name at the bottom.   (This is so they don't send court documents to the old address).

  1. In most if not all cases that will be it. Just keep filing until six years have passed or five in Scotland. This is because after that time the debt becomes statute barred and the courts will not consider it as it has become too old. (The statue barred date begins 14 days after the date of the Default notice mentioned above and six years after that it is all over for court action).

  1. In one or two cases a Court Claim may be made in which case defend it which is a whole other ball game but basically ask them for proof of the debt which they very likely cannot provide, if they can provide challenge it's enforceability,  mostly it's game over for them.

 

Your friend can start to get on with his life if he follows this plan and learns to accept that these debts are not necessarily the millstone he thinks. He can live within his means and have a good and fun life which is what he deserves. The original creditors have accepted some money from the debt buyer so presumably are happy and the debt buyer will make a profit across the whole bunch of debts he bought even if he makes nothing from your friend so he is happy. If nether of them are happy then they should not have got themselves into the situation in the first place.

 

As always I finish my comments by saying I am not a legal professional just a guy that got into to trouble in 2006 and learned a lot of this stuff along the way.

 

I welcome any comments from other CAGers, particularly if they spot any mistakes.

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Great advice

 

two things..

 

dont ignore a letter of claim ( but you can ignore everything to that point)

 

dont use the court forms if a debt buyer ever raises a court claim.....use the mcol website

 

 

please don't hit Quote...just type we know what we said earlier..

DCA's view debtors as suckers, marks and mugs

NO DCA has ANY legal powers whatsoever on ANY debt no matter what it's Type

and they

are NOT and can NEVER  be BAILIFFS. even if a debt has been to court..

If everyone stopped blindly paying DCA's Tomorrow, their industry would collapse overnight... 

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Many thanks for that, knowing Mark, as I do I think he will take this advise.It does sound to me that there is very little they can do to him. I was amazed even got such a huge credit line when he could never afford to pay it back once he hit the £75k. I have asked him for the lenders etc and will post the details once i get them.

 

Again thank you all,

 

cheers,

 

Paul

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Paul, as long as your friend realises how long this will go on for and how it could impact on mental health, relationship with girlfriend etc

 

Some people can handle being chased for debts better than others. There are a lot of people who suffer in silence with severe mental health and in the worst cases the outcome is very sad.

 

Always look into all available options obtaining as much advice as possible. 

 

Hopefully, if you can get hold of all of the debt information, this will help explore the options fully.

 

 

 

 

We could do with some help from you.

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All very valid points, I will be speaking with him this week and explain the situation. I think one off the most stressful things for him, and anyone in this position is not knowing what can happen, what they can and can't do. It's been a real eye opener for me!!

 

thank you all once again.

 

cheers,

Paul

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Back in 2006 I came face to face with a debt problem which was that I could clear my debts or help a family member and I of course chose the latter.

 

The resultant onslaught of phone calls and letters was at first unsettling but I realised, particularly with the help afforded by this site that in reality there was nothing they could do.  If your friend has no assets then they can't take them,  If he challenges their assertions to the debts then in the main they can't prove them, if he has nothing then they will not make him bankrupt and even if he has something they will not make him bankrupt because they have to pay the fees and then anything your friend has is split up between all the people he owes so no business will go that route.

 

In short, although they will huff and puff they are pretty much not able to blow his house down even if it is made of straw like mine!

 

He should adapt to the situation and turn it into a hobby like I did/do.   I actually collect debt collection letters and other things they send out.   When something arrives in the post I am likely to say "Oh I have got one of those" or "Ah something new for my collection".

 

Thinking like this causes the intimidation to drop away and become ineffective.

 

Tell him to can his worries and start enjoying life, because I guarantee that the Creditors are not staying awake worrying about him!  He is just a few magnetic dots on their hard drive and is in their threatomatic machine.  Depending upon his reaction he will be moved around the machine and there are parts of the machine which are programmed to deal with debtors who don't respond and that is to park them out of the way and work on other ones.

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I would have done the same as you, in your position. Thanks so much for your help, I've sent the advice to Mark and he is very relieved.

 

I wish on a personal level there was a solution for Care Home fees, that situation is causing me some stress, sadlyhadr to sell mums house to pay towards the fees - awful illness.

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One other consideration is whether your friend could be due any inheritance or financial award at some point during say the next decade.

 

Your friend has no money or assets now, but if they did come into any money,  it would not be great timing to have any Court claims being made at the time.

We could do with some help from you.

PLEASE HELP US TO KEEP THIS SITE RUNNING EVERY POUND DONATED WILL HELP US TO KEEP HELPING OTHERS

 

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Marks responce to all my copy and paste updates.

 

 

Very very well put. I like that. In fact i will keep it to send to anyone i come across in same situation.   Thanks 

 
Sent from my iPhone

 

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