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    • The Notice to Hirer does not comply with the protection of Freedoms Act 2012 Schedule  4 . This is before I ask if Europarks have sent you a copy of the PCN they sent to Arval along with a copy of the hire agreement et. if they haven't done that either you are totally in the clear and have nothing to worry about and nothing to pay. The PCN they have sent you is supposed to be paid by you according to the Act within 21 days. The chucklebuts have stated 28 days which is the time that motorists have to pay. Such a basic and simple thing . The Act came out in 2012 and still they cannot get it right which is very good news for you. Sadly there is no point in telling them- they won't accept it because they lose their chance to make any money out of you. they are hoping that by writing to you demanding money plus sending in their  unregulated debt collectors and sixth rate solicitors that you might be so frightened as to pay them money so that you can sleep at night. Don't be surprised if some of their letters are done in coloured crayons-that's the sort of  level of people you will be dealing with. Makes great bedding for the rabbits though. Euro tend not to be that litigious but while you can safely ignore the debt collectors just keep an eye out for a possible Letter of Claim. They are pretty rare but musn't be ignored. Let us know so that you can send a suitably snotty letter to them showing that you are not afraid of them and are happy to go to Court as you like winning.  
    • They did reply to my defence stating it would fail and enclosed copies of NOA, DN Term letter and account statements. All copies of T&C's that could be reconstructions and the IP address on there resolves to the town where MBNA offices are, not my location
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    • My defence was standard no paperwork:   1.The Defendant contends that the particulars of claim are generic in nature. The Defendant accordingly sets out its case below and relies on CPR r 16.5 (3) in relation to any particular allegation to which a specific response has not been made. 2. Paragraph 1 is noted. The Defendant has had a contractual relationship with MBNA Limited in the past. The Defendant does not recognise the reference number provided by the claimant within its particulars and has sought verification from the claimant who is yet to comply with requests for further information. 3. Paragraph 2 is denied. The Defendant maintains that a default notice was never received. The Claimant is put to strict proof to that a default notice was issued by MBNA Limited and received by the Defendant. 4. Paragraph 3 is denied. The Defendant is unaware of any legal assignment or Notice of Assignment allegedly served from either the Claimant or MBNA Limited. 5. On the 02/01/2023 the Defendant requested information pertaining to this claim by way of a CCA 1974 Section 78 request. The claimant is yet to respond to this request. On the 19/05/2023 a CPR 31.14 request was sent to Kearns who is yet to respond. To date, 02/06/2023, no documentation has been received. The claimant remains in default of my section 78 request. 6. It is therefore denied with regards to the Defendant owing any monies to the Claimant, the Claimant has failed to provide any evidence of proof of assignment being sent/ agreement/ balance/ breach or termination requested by CPR 31.14, therefore the Claimant is put to strict proof to: (a) show how the Defendant entered into an agreement; and (b) show and evidence the nature of breach and service of a default notice pursuant to Section 87(1) CCA1974 (c) show how the claimant has reached the amount claimed for; and (d) show how the Claimant has the legal right, either under statute or equity to issue a claim; 7. As per Civil Procedure Rule 16.5(4), it is expected that the Claimant prove the allegation that the money is owed. 8. On the alternative, as the Claimant is an assignee of a debt, it is denied that the Claimant has the right to lay a claim due to contraventions of Section 136 of the Law of Property Act and Section 82A of the consumer credit Act 1974. 9. By reasons of the facts and matters set out above, it is denied that the Claimant is entitled to the relief claimed or any relief.
    • Monika the first four pages of the Private parking section have at least 12 of our members who have also been caught out on this scam site. That's around one quarter of all our current complaints. Usually we might expect two current complaints for the same park within 4 pages.  So you are in good company and have done well in appealing to McDonalds in an effort to resolve the matter without having  paid such a bunch of rogues. Most people blindly pay up. Met . Starbucks and McDonalds  are well aware of the situation and seem unwilling to make it easier for motorists to avoid getting caught. For instance, instead of photographing you, if they were honest and wanted you  to continue using their services again, they would have said "Excuse me but if you are going to go to Mc donalds from here, it will cost you £100." But no they kett quiet and are now pursuing you for probably a lot more than £100 now. They also know thst  they cannot charge anything over the amount stated on the car park signs. Their claims for £160 or £170 are unlawful yet so many pay that to avoid going to Court. When the truth is that Met are unlikely to take them to Court since they know they will lose. The PCNs are issued on airport land which is covered by Byelaws so only the driver can be pursued, not the keeper. But they keep writing to you as they do not know who was driving unless you gave it away when you appealed. Even if they know you were driving they should still lose in Court for several reasons. The reason we ask you to fill out our questionnaire is to help you if MET do decide to take you to Court in the end. Each member who visited the park may well have different experiences while there which can help when filling out a Witness statement [we will help you with that if it comes to it.] if you have thrown away the original PCN  and other paperwork you obviously haven't got a jerbil or a guinea pig as their paper makes great litter boxes for them.🙂 You can send an SAR to them to get all the information Met have on you to date. Though if you have been to several sites already, you may have done that by now. In the meantime, you will be being bombarded by illiterate debt collectors and sixth rate solicitors all threatening you with ever increasing amounts as well as being hung drawn and quartered. Their letters can all be safely ignored. On the odd chance that you may get a Letter of Claim from them just come back to us and we will get you to send a snotty letter back to them so that they know you are not happy, don't care a fig for their threats and will see them off in Court if they finally have the guts to carry on. If you do have the original PCN could you please post it up, carefully removing your name. address and car registration number but including dates and times. If not just click on the SAR to take you to the form to send to Met.
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CEL ANPR PCN - POPLA unsuccessful -PAPLOC - Now Claimform - Morrisons, Butterfly Walk Car Park, London SE5 8RW - paid have receipt too! ***Claim Discontinued***


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Hi, just wondering what stage are you at with this?? Did it go to court?? Seems like it has been going on for a year??

Civil Enforcement and POPLA also rejected my appeal.

 

I entered the Butterfly Walk car park in Camberwell in May 2021 and went to pay at the machine but their machine froze. I then phoned up their number on the board to pay via the phone but got cut off after 3mins. 2nd call went through but it took about 5mins to enter the card details and registration number after listening to them yapping about going onto their website to pay. I have got a receipt. 
 

to cut the story short. Charge was sent to my husband but I dealt with it as I was driving.

 

I submitted the receipt to them along with my details. 

3 weeks later, same charge was sent but this time to me in my name.

 
My appeal to both Civil Enforcement and POPLA was unsuccessful because I didn’t pay within 10mins. Although I submitted proof of my calls to say I had called twice with 10mins, their response was that it was my error and no one else had issues paying at the time while I parked there. 
 

Not sure if I have a strong case?? Any advice appreciated. 

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  • dx100uk changed the title to CEL ANPR PCN POPLA unsuccessful - Morrisons, Butterfly Walk Car Park, London SE5 8RW

Hi All, here are my answers to the sticky forum as requested.

 

My POPLA appeal was unsuccessful on 13th August. I have received a letter from Civil Enforcement (dated 16.08) today, 17th August demanding payment within 28days as my appeal to POPLA is unsuccessful. I believe I have a stronger case as I have attempted to pay as soon as I have parked up but payment didn't go through until 13mins later. I have a receipt as proof of payment and also proof of calls from my phone made within 10mins of entering the car park. 

 

Shall I ignore all letters and look out for the Letter of claim

 

Any advice appreciated. 

 

1 Date of the infringement

17.05.21
 

 

2 Date on the NTK [this must have been received within 14 days from the 'offence' date]

Register to keeper dated 26.05 

To driver dated 10.06
 

[scan up BOTH SIDES as ONE PDF- follow the upload guide]

please do not put JPG Picture files into your post

 

3 Date received

To Keeper - 29th May

To driver - 15th June
 

4 Does the NTK mention schedule 4 of The Protections of Freedoms Act 2012? [Y/N?]

No
 

5 Is there any photographic evidence of the event?

Yes from Civil Enforcement. 
 

6 Have you appealed? [Y/N?] post up your appeal]

Yes
 

Have you had a response? [Y/N?] post it up

Yes
 

7 Who is the parking company?

Civil Enforcement 

 

8. Where exactly [carpark name and town]

Butterfly Walk Car Park, Denmark Hill, London, SE5 8RW
 

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1 hour ago, Annabooo said:

I have a receipt as proof of payment and also proof of calls from my phone made within 10mins of entering the car park.

Superb.  CEL don't have a leg to stand on.

 

1 hour ago, Annabooo said:

Shall I ignore all letters and look out for the Letter of claim?

Exactly.

 

Just to get all your ducks in a row - I'm confused as to why you mention two notifications from CEL.  Please redact these and upload them.

We could do with some help from you.

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First notification was to my husband as he is the owner of the car. I thought I did the right thing and appealed (as stated in their letter) to say I have paid for the parking and sent them my receipt and explained I may have entered the registration slightly wrong (entered II instead of 11) which is why I got the fine.  
 

Expect to hear back within 14 days from the appeal (as stated) but received another invoice but in my name this time 17 days later after the appeal. No explanation or anything about my receipt or incorrect registration number. Appealed again through Civil Enforcement but only asked for the verification code so I can appeal directly to POPLA. - I was so confident that POPLA will cancel my charge as I sent them proof I had tried to pay and their system was slow. When payment finally went through, the call lasted about 5mins. 
 

After the 2nd appeal to them, I had received a letter from them within a couple of days referring to my verification number to POPLA explaining that my appeal was unsuccessful because I didn’t pay within 10mins as stated on their sign plus a ‘COPY’ version of their response to my first appeal dated within the 14days after my first appeal which I’d never received. I still haven’t received that first response on this day and believed it was never sent to me. 


Up until I had received the first response from Civil Enforcement, I didn’t know it took 13mins for my payment to go through after 2 failed attempts. Not like I left the car park without paying, I sorted it and made sure payment went through before I did my shopping. 
 

Did you want me to upload the POPLA response?? Or the letter they have sent me today or both charges?? 
 

Thank you so much. 

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Apologies.  I missed the bit about them sending the first invoice to your husband.

 

CEL are a disgrace, and so are POPLA for not accepting your appeal, but hey, that's the private parking industry for you.

 

I doubt very much CEL would dare take you to court, but if they did they'd get a hammering from the judge.  You paid, they suffered no loss.  The three-minute delay is "de minimis" - and indeed was caused by CEL.  They haven't got a hope.

 

Relax now but come back if they send a Letter Before Claim (as well as relaxing read some CEL threads to familiarise yourself with the daft threats they'll make).

 

The PCN they sent to you would be useful to see if you can upload it.

 

Learn from the experience and don't appeal in future.  As you've seen, the appeal procedure is a con and skewed towards finding against the motorist.  They also didn't know who was driving originally - but you told them.  Not of this is fatal as their claim is total pants but something to learn from.

We could do with some help from you.

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Sure, will upload them tonight. 
 

Yup, I was going to pay the fine and forget about it after the appeal was unsuccessful but I spent the whole weekend reading this forum and other posts in unfair parking fine Facebook groups. My gut feeling tells me not to pay!

 

I was reading The CEL ANPR PCN PAPLOC now Claimform - Morrisons, Butterfly Walk Car Park Denmark Hill Camberwell, London SE5 8RW - paid-did not enter Reg No - POPLA rejected appeal thread and it made me laugh so much. So I know what to expect next and I am aware that debts cannot be collected unless they win the court case. So funny how they use a fake debt company and then another and kept giving new deadlines. That is not professional at all.

I realised I’d made a big mistake as soon as I received the same charge but in my name. I guess honesty is not always the best policy. 
 

Thank you and I will update and post as each letter comes as it give others more confidence into not giving in to those fleecers! 

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it is NOT A FINE!!

please don't hit Quote...just type we know what we said earlier..

DCA's view debtors as suckers, marks and mugs

NO DCA has ANY legal powers whatsoever on ANY debt no matter what it's Type

and they

are NOT and can NEVER  be BAILIFFS. even if a debt has been to court..

If everyone stopped blindly paying DCA's Tomorrow, their industry would collapse overnight... 

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Of course, it is an invoice! Need to remember that. 

Attached PDFs as promised. 

Here is the response from POPLA.

I'd only copied and pasted the relevant part as why the appeal was unsuccessful as some part of the decision was dragging on and going off topic such as the CEL not informing me in writing why my appeal wasn't successful and sent me a charge instead and that is between me and CEL and it would make no difference to the appeal. 

To keep it simple, here it is! 

Having considered the evidence provided, I can see that a payment was made towards the appellant’s stay on the date in question however, the parking terms clearly state that payment must be made within 10 minutes of arrival.

According to the paybyphone data log provided, the payment was not made until 10:33, which was 13 minutes after arriving at the site. As such, the appellant has not made the payment in conjunction with the terms and conditions and the PCN has been subsequently issued.

I can see no evidence to suggest that there were any faults with any of the payment machines on the date in question, as the operator has provided a log of payments, showing that other motorists were able to successfully make payment for their stay around the same time the appellant was parked at the site.

In the absence of any evidence to suggest otherwise, it is clear that all payment methods were working on the date in question. I have considered the appellant’s evidence of the payment confirmation and whilst I do not dispute that payment was made, the parking terms apply to all motorists using the site.

I would also like to highlight that the operator has provided evidence of its internal call log, showing that two calls were made from the appellant’s phone number however, the first call was dropped due to too many failed attempts at registering the vehicle details.

I note the appellants frustrations on the date in question however, if the appellant was experiencing problems with any of the payment methods on the site at the time, they could have contacted the operator directly on the phone number to seek further assistance or they should have left the site when and sought alternative parking arrangements. 

Ultimately, it is the motorist’s responsibility to ensure they have made full, valid payment for their stay. In this case, by failing to make payment in accordance with the terms and conditions stated, the appellant has accepted the potential risk of a PCN. As such, I conclude that the PCN has been issued correctly. Accordingly, I must refuse this appeal.

 

2 PCN letters dif dates for same event + threats.pdf

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That's disgraceful from POPLA, but it's typical that these appeal bodies only consider the made-up rules of the private parking industry and ignore the law in England and Wales.

 

The good side of course is that a proper judge would hammer CEL.  If you want a good laugh, see how this case turned out for the PPC  https://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/topic/419485-excelbwelms-anpr-pcn-paploc-now-claimform-but-i-paid-providince-st-wakefield-wf1-3bg-claim-dismissed/#comments

 

We could do with some help from you.

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Yup I figured that out when I was reading through their assessment. When POPLA said that nothing was wrong with the payment method on the day as the operator provided the internal log of calls, they could have edited or hid certain calls before sending it to POPLA! POPLA cannot be sure if nothing was wrong as they weren’t there! They knew I attempted to make payment when I parked up but still refused to cancel my appeal. 
 

I believe I have enough evidence so will wait for the Letter before Claim before I respond. Will keep all my ducks in a row for now! 
 

Thanks for the thread, I should take a read. These threads do make me laugh so much but you guys have been a great support by telling us not to panic. I can see why people get so anxious and it isn’t nice. 
 

Thanks again, will keep everyone posted! 
 

 

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The logic of POPLA is weird.

The motorist has ten minutes at least to decide whether they want to stay after having read the T&CS. So if a motorist decides not to stay,  going by their logic the motorist would have had to leave a couple of minutes earlier than that if they have to have left the car park  by ten minutes.

 

Therefore they would not have been given ten minutes consideration. Muppets.

 

The same with your phone call.

The fact that you hadn't paid within ten minutes, which is not what the arrangement is, but that from the ten minute time, you were trying to make the payment.  And if they had a decent ANPR system that recorded your reg. number on arrival they would not have needed to have you enter your number.

 

Is it possible that you could return to the car park and take photos of the signage there. A clear and legible picture of the entrance sign and other dotted around the car park especially those that are different from other parking signs there as well as pictures of their payment machine and legible picture of the T&Cs on the machine or the nearest sign to the machine. Their ten minute rule is important to include. Most signage doesn't mention ten minutes.

 

Signage is one of the ways in which these crooks lose in Court so seeing them in advance of any possible court hearings is an advantage.

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When CEL submitted their photographs to POPLA, the signs does say pay within 10mins along with the details on how to pay etc. I didn’t focus too much on the 10mins at that time as I had my toddler and mum with me and aslong as I pay or at least attempt to pay right away, I thought it should be fine. I did look to pay as soon as I parked up and when we all got out. 
 

Machine was frozen when I tried to pay. Then I phoned the number on the board to pay. Their automatic phone system was dragging on for a good 3mins about paying on their website before asking me to enter my registration and then my card details. When the call got cut off first time, I phoned right back. I left the car park after paying for my ticket. 
 

Yes I can go back on Friday to take photos of their signs and post on here. Thank you for reading! 
 

 

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Ok, so I went into Butterfly Walk car park today and took pictures of their signs. I am starting to think the signs that CEL submitted to POPLA are fake as the signs in the car park is nowhere near as obvious as their photographs they sent to POPLA. Such a shame their photographs are not on POPLA anymore so I could compare them.  

 

Firstly, when you drive in, there is a big sign that says Phone & Pay or Pay at Machine. Nothing stated about payment must be made within 10mins. As you pass the first big sign, there is another sign on the right on the wall that tells you the prices and other information. It took me a while to see the 'payment must be paid within 10mins from arrival' and that is me standing right in front of that sign. It did not stand out at all or caught my eye right away. I can see the camera facing where the first sign is. 

 

Also, I figured out today why I couldn't pay at the machine as it only allow COINS yet they have what looks like a card slot and the little bit at the bottom where you collect paid tickets. Just like a typical ticket machine that allows card payment. Therefore I now understand why the machine 'froze' when I put my card in waiting for payment to go through and the green button wasn't working. My card fitted in that slot perfectly too! NOWHERE on the machine says 'COINS ONLY'. Again, took me a while to acknowledge that it is coins only. 

 

Even going into the car park today knowing what I am looking for still took me a good few mins to read the signs. I even wondered where I got the number to pay as it wasn't on any of the signs near the front. I had to go half way into the car park and then there is another sign where it has the number to pay. The bigger sign and the smaller sign is put all around half of the car park inside. 

 

Let me know your thoughts.

Thank you all for reading! 

Signs in Morrisons.pdf

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the signs are never those in their pictures.

  • I agree 1

please don't hit Quote...just type we know what we said earlier..

DCA's view debtors as suckers, marks and mugs

NO DCA has ANY legal powers whatsoever on ANY debt no matter what it's Type

and they

are NOT and can NEVER  be BAILIFFS. even if a debt has been to court..

If everyone stopped blindly paying DCA's Tomorrow, their industry would collapse overnight... 

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I have never seen such an array of different car park signs in any other car park. There is ABC car park solutions at the entrance. You are right it does not state that you have 10 minutes to pay, rendering their signs to pay within ten minutes inside unnecessary to observe. It should also state that the car park is under the aegis of either the BPA or IPC. Probably neither would want to put their name to this one though. 

Then they have another company signing a sign as ABC Facilities Management Ltd and yet a third company on the pay machine-Star Park. And all but the pay machine have the added name of CEL. It just goes to show that POPLA  is unfit for the purpose but it is good news for you since the site is such an absolute joke that no Judge would take it seriously.

 

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I guess I'd never submitted their true signs to POPLA as I didn't think they would reject my appeal. POPLA just used CEL's photographs and made a decision based on that.

 

I believe I have paid or at least attempted to pay as soon as I'd parked up was good enough reason to cancel my ticket. I remember looking at their photographs on POPLA's appeal and it was big bright yellow and you can clearly see 'Pay within 10mins of arrival'.

 

But when I got there on Friday, I didn't see it right away as it blended in so well with the other texts and it took me a long while to find those words. I even thought those words were removed. 

 

I guess I can ignore all threats and wait for the Letter before Claim. Have saved all my evidence in a special folder on my laptop incase I ever need it. 

 

Thank you all for your support and advice.

I have learnt so much from this charge from reading the forums and spending the time looking into this. I normally would pay without even acknowledging but this time I really felt I wasn't in the wrong and believed the ticket should be cancelled. My husband still thinks I should pay and forget about it. 

 

I will be posting all threats here as they come so others can see how pathetic their constant extending deadlines are from various fake debt companies writing on behalf of each other and increasing the charge along the way until they take the case to court. They are using time and mind games to make people give in. 

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Save a backup copy of that folder all to an external USB pen don't just trust the laptops drive

We could do with some help from you.

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The bailiff: A 12th Century solution re-branded as Enforcement Agents for the 21st Century to seize and sell debtors goods as before Oh so Dickensian!

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That's good, I would also make an offline copy for extra security.

We could do with some help from you.

PLEASE HELP US TO KEEP THIS SITE RUNNING EVERY POUND DONATED WILL HELP US TO KEEP HELPING OTHERS

Have we helped you ...?         Please Donate button to the Consumer Action Group

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The bailiff: A 12th Century solution re-branded as Enforcement Agents for the 21st Century to seize and sell debtors goods as before Oh so Dickensian!

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  • 2 months later...

'they' cant do any of that.

'they' would have to ask the judge tooo...

and thats only if you lose any ccj hearing...

 

CEL  are masters at spoofing people, they have a very long history here and rarely succeed.

 

dx

please don't hit Quote...just type we know what we said earlier..

DCA's view debtors as suckers, marks and mugs

NO DCA has ANY legal powers whatsoever on ANY debt no matter what it's Type

and they

are NOT and can NEVER  be BAILIFFS. even if a debt has been to court..

If everyone stopped blindly paying DCA's Tomorrow, their industry would collapse overnight... 

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All dependent on them successfully gaining a CCJ, which is not a foregone conclusion by any means.

We could do with some help from you.

PLEASE HELP US TO KEEP THIS SITE RUNNING EVERY POUND DONATED WILL HELP US TO KEEP HELPING OTHERS

Have we helped you ...?         Please Donate button to the Consumer Action Group

If you want advice on your thread please PM me a link to your thread

The bailiff: A 12th Century solution re-branded as Enforcement Agents for the 21st Century to seize and sell debtors goods as before Oh so Dickensian!

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