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CEL ANPR PCN POPLA unsuccessful - Morrisons, Butterfly Walk Car Park, London SE5 8RW


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Posted (edited)

 

Hi, just wondering what stage are you at with this?? Did it go to court?? Seems like it has been going on for a year??

Civil Enforcement and POPLA also rejected my appeal.

 

I entered the Butterfly Walk car park in Camberwell in May 2021 and went to pay at the machine but their machine froze. I then phoned up their number on the board to pay via the phone but got cut off after 3mins. 2nd call went through but it took about 5mins to enter the card details and registration number after listening to them yapping about going onto their website to pay. I have got a receipt. 
 

to cut the story short. Charge was sent to my husband but I dealt with it as I was driving.

 

I submitted the receipt to them along with my details. 

3 weeks later, same charge was sent but this time to me in my name.

 
My appeal to both Civil Enforcement and POPLA was unsuccessful because I didn’t pay within 10mins. Although I submitted proof of my calls to say I had called twice with 10mins, their response was that it was my error and no one else had issues paying at the time while I parked there. 
 

Not sure if I have a strong case?? Any advice appreciated. 

Edited by dx100uk
FINE change to charge..they can't FINE you.
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Hello, welcome to CAG.

 

I've moved your topic to the Private Parking forum for the guys to advise.

 

Please could you let us have the answers requested in the forum sticky? It will help us suggest where you should go with this.

 

 

Best, HB

B

Illegitimi non carborundum

 

 

 

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  • dx100uk changed the title to CEL ANPR PCN POPLA unsuccessful - Morrisons, Butterfly Walk Car Park, London SE5 8RW

Hi All, here are my answers to the sticky forum as requested.

 

My POPLA appeal was unsuccessful on 13th August. I have received a letter from Civil Enforcement (dated 16.08) today, 17th August demanding payment within 28days as my appeal to POPLA is unsuccessful. I believe I have a stronger case as I have attempted to pay as soon as I have parked up but payment didn't go through until 13mins later. I have a receipt as proof of payment and also proof of calls from my phone made within 10mins of entering the car park. 

 

Shall I ignore all letters and look out for the Letter of claim

 

Any advice appreciated. 

 

1 Date of the infringement

17.05.21
 

 

2 Date on the NTK [this must have been received within 14 days from the 'offence' date]

Register to keeper dated 26.05 

To driver dated 10.06
 

[scan up BOTH SIDES as ONE PDF- follow the upload guide]

please do not put JPG Picture files into your post

 

3 Date received

To Keeper - 29th May

To driver - 15th June
 

4 Does the NTK mention schedule 4 of The Protections of Freedoms Act 2012? [Y/N?]

No
 

5 Is there any photographic evidence of the event?

Yes from Civil Enforcement. 
 

6 Have you appealed? [Y/N?] post up your appeal]

Yes
 

Have you had a response? [Y/N?] post it up

Yes
 

7 Who is the parking company?

Civil Enforcement 

 

8. Where exactly [carpark name and town]

Butterfly Walk Car Park, Denmark Hill, London, SE5 8RW
 

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1 hour ago, Annabooo said:

I have a receipt as proof of payment and also proof of calls from my phone made within 10mins of entering the car park.

Superb.  CEL don't have a leg to stand on.

 

1 hour ago, Annabooo said:

Shall I ignore all letters and look out for the Letter of claim?

Exactly.

 

Just to get all your ducks in a row - I'm confused as to why you mention two notifications from CEL.  Please redact these and upload them.

We could do with some help from you.

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First notification was to my husband as he is the owner of the car. I thought I did the right thing and appealed (as stated in their letter) to say I have paid for the parking and sent them my receipt and explained I may have entered the registration slightly wrong (entered II instead of 11) which is why I got the fine.  
 

Expect to hear back within 14 days from the appeal (as stated) but received another invoice but in my name this time 17 days later after the appeal. No explanation or anything about my receipt or incorrect registration number. Appealed again through Civil Enforcement but only asked for the verification code so I can appeal directly to POPLA. - I was so confident that POPLA will cancel my charge as I sent them proof I had tried to pay and their system was slow. When payment finally went through, the call lasted about 5mins. 
 

After the 2nd appeal to them, I had received a letter from them within a couple of days referring to my verification number to POPLA explaining that my appeal was unsuccessful because I didn’t pay within 10mins as stated on their sign plus a ‘COPY’ version of their response to my first appeal dated within the 14days after my first appeal which I’d never received. I still haven’t received that first response on this day and believed it was never sent to me. 


Up until I had received the first response from Civil Enforcement, I didn’t know it took 13mins for my payment to go through after 2 failed attempts. Not like I left the car park without paying, I sorted it and made sure payment went through before I did my shopping. 
 

Did you want me to upload the POPLA response?? Or the letter they have sent me today or both charges?? 
 

Thank you so much. 

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Apologies.  I missed the bit about them sending the first invoice to your husband.

 

CEL are a disgrace, and so are POPLA for not accepting your appeal, but hey, that's the private parking industry for you.

 

I doubt very much CEL would dare take you to court, but if they did they'd get a hammering from the judge.  You paid, they suffered no loss.  The three-minute delay is "de minimis" - and indeed was caused by CEL.  They haven't got a hope.

 

Relax now but come back if they send a Letter Before Claim (as well as relaxing read some CEL threads to familiarise yourself with the daft threats they'll make).

 

The PCN they sent to you would be useful to see if you can upload it.

 

Learn from the experience and don't appeal in future.  As you've seen, the appeal procedure is a con and skewed towards finding against the motorist.  They also didn't know who was driving originally - but you told them.  Not of this is fatal as their claim is total pants but something to learn from.

We could do with some help from you.

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Sure, will upload them tonight. 
 

Yup, I was going to pay the fine and forget about it after the appeal was unsuccessful but I spent the whole weekend reading this forum and other posts in unfair parking fine Facebook groups. My gut feeling tells me not to pay!

 

I was reading The CEL ANPR PCN PAPLOC now Claimform - Morrisons, Butterfly Walk Car Park Denmark Hill Camberwell, London SE5 8RW - paid-did not enter Reg No - POPLA rejected appeal thread and it made me laugh so much. So I know what to expect next and I am aware that debts cannot be collected unless they win the court case. So funny how they use a fake debt company and then another and kept giving new deadlines. That is not professional at all.

I realised I’d made a big mistake as soon as I received the same charge but in my name. I guess honesty is not always the best policy. 
 

Thank you and I will update and post as each letter comes as it give others more confidence into not giving in to those fleecers! 

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it is NOT A FINE!!

please don't hit Quote...just type we know what we said earlier..

DCA's view debtors as suckers, marks and mugs

NO DCA has ANY legal powers whatsoever on ANY debt no matter what it's Type

and they

are NOT and can NEVER  be BAILIFFS. even if a debt has been to court..

If everyone stopped blindly paying DCA's Tomorrow, their industry would collapse overnight... 

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Attached PDFs as promised. 

 

Here is the response from POPLA.

 

I'd only copied and pasted the relevant part as why the appeal was unsuccessful as some part of the decision was dragging on and going off topic such as the CEL not informing me in writing why my appeal wasn't successful and sent me a charge instead and that is between me and CEL and it would make no difference to the appeal. 

 

To keep it simple, here it is! 

 

Having considered the evidence provided, I can see that a payment was made towards the appellant’s stay on the date in question however, the parking terms clearly state that payment must be made within 10 minutes of arrival.

 

According to the paybyphone data log provided, the payment was not made until 10:33, which was 13 minutes after arriving at the site. As such, the appellant has not made the payment in conjunction with the terms and conditions and the PCN has been subsequently issued.

 

I can see no evidence to suggest that there were any faults with any of the payment machines on the date in question, as the operator has provided a log of payments, showing that other motorists were able to successfully make payment for their stay around the same time the appellant was parked at the site.

 

In the absence of any evidence to suggest otherwise, it is clear that all payment methods were working on the date in question. I have considered the appellant’s evidence of the payment confirmation and whilst I do not dispute that payment was made, the parking terms apply to all motorists using the site.

 

I would also like to highlight that the operator has provided evidence of its internal call log, showing that two calls were made from the appellant’s phone number however, the first call was dropped due to too many failed attempts at registering the vehicle details.

 

I note the appellants frustrations on the date in question however, if the appellant was experiencing problems with any of the payment methods on the site at the time, they could have contacted the operator directly on the phone number to seek further assistance or they should have left the site when and sought alternative parking arrangements. 

 

Ultimately, it is the motorist’s responsibility to ensure they have made full, valid payment for their stay. In this case, by failing to make payment in accordance with the terms and conditions stated, the appellant has accepted the potential risk of a PCN. As such, I conclude that the PCN has been issued correctly. Accordingly, I must refuse this appeal.

PDF of CE.pdf

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That's disgraceful from POPLA, but it's typical that these appeal bodies only consider the made-up rules of the private parking industry and ignore the law in England and Wales.

 

The good side of course is that a proper judge would hammer CEL.  If you want a good laugh, see how this case turned out for the PPC  https://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/topic/419485-excelbwelms-anpr-pcn-paploc-now-claimform-but-i-paid-providince-st-wakefield-wf1-3bg-claim-dismissed/#comments

 

We could do with some help from you.

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Yup I figured that out when I was reading through their assessment. When POPLA said that nothing was wrong with the payment method on the day as the operator provided the internal log of calls, they could have edited or hid certain calls before sending it to POPLA! POPLA cannot be sure if nothing was wrong as they weren’t there! They knew I attempted to make payment when I parked up but still refused to cancel my appeal. 
 

I believe I have enough evidence so will wait for the Letter before Claim before I respond. Will keep all my ducks in a row for now! 
 

Thanks for the thread, I should take a read. These threads do make me laugh so much but you guys have been a great support by telling us not to panic. I can see why people get so anxious and it isn’t nice. 
 

Thanks again, will keep everyone posted! 
 

 

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The logic of POPLA is weird. The motorist has ten minutes at least to decide whether they want to stay after having read the T&CS. So if a motorist decides not to stay,  going by their logic the motorist would have had to leave a couple of minutes earlier than that if they have to have left the car park  by ten minutes. Therefore they would not have been given ten minutes consideration. Muppets. The same with your phone call. The fact that you hadn't paid within ten minutes, which is not what the arrangement is, but that from the ten minute time, you were trying to make the payment.  And if they had a decent ANPR system that recorded your reg. number on arrival they would not have needed to have you enter your number.

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Is it possible that you could return to the car park and take photos of the signage there. A clear and legible picture of the entance sign and other dotted around the car park especially those that are diferent from other parking signs there as well as pictures of their payment machine and legible picture of the T&Cs on the machine or the nearest sign to the machine. Their ten minute rule is important to include. Most signage doesn't mention ten minutes.

 

Signage is one of the ways in which these crooks lose in Court so seeing them in advance of any possible court hearings is an advantage.

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When CEL submitted their photographs to POPLA, the signs does say pay within 10mins along with the details on how to pay etc. I didn’t focus too much on the 10mins at that time as I had my toddler and mum with me and aslong as I pay or at least attempt to pay right away, I thought it should be fine. I did look to pay as soon as I parked up and when we all got out. 
 

Machine was frozen when I tried to pay. Then I phoned the number on the board to pay. Their automatic phone system was dragging on for a good 3mins about paying on their website before asking me to enter my registration and then my card details. When the call got cut off first time, I phoned right back. I left the car park after paying for my ticket. 
 

Yes I can go back on Friday to take photos of their signs and post on here. Thank you for reading! 
 

 

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Ok, so I went into Butterfly Walk car park today and took pictures of their signs. I am starting to think the signs that CEL submitted to POPLA are fake as the signs in the car park is nowhere near as obvious as their photographs they sent to POPLA. Such a shame their photographs are not on POPLA anymore so I could compare them.  

 

Firstly, when you drive in, there is a big sign that says Phone & Pay or Pay at Machine. Nothing stated about payment must be made within 10mins. As you pass the first big sign, there is another sign on the right on the wall that tells you the prices and other information. It took me a while to see the 'payment must be paid within 10mins from arrival' and that is me standing right in front of that sign. It did not stand out at all or caught my eye right away. I can see the camera facing where the first sign is. 

 

Also, I figured out today why I couldn't pay at the machine as it only allow COINS yet they have what looks like a card slot and the little bit at the bottom where you collect paid tickets. Just like a typical ticket machine that allows card payment. Therefore I now understand why the machine 'froze' when I put my card in waiting for payment to go through and the green button wasn't working. My card fitted in that slot perfectly too! NOWHERE on the machine says 'COINS ONLY'. Again, took me a while to acknowledge that it is coins only. 

 

Even going into the car park today knowing what I am looking for still took me a good few mins to read the signs. I even wondered where I got the number to pay as it wasn't on any of the signs near the front. I had to go half way into the car park and then there is another sign where it has the number to pay. The bigger sign and the smaller sign is put all around half of the car park inside. 

 

Let me know your thoughts.

Thank you all for reading! 

Signs in Morrisons.pdf

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the signs are never those in their pictures.

  • I agree 1

please don't hit Quote...just type we know what we said earlier..

DCA's view debtors as suckers, marks and mugs

NO DCA has ANY legal powers whatsoever on ANY debt no matter what it's Type

and they

are NOT and can NEVER  be BAILIFFS. even if a debt has been to court..

If everyone stopped blindly paying DCA's Tomorrow, their industry would collapse overnight... 

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I have never seen such an array of different car park signs in any other car park. There is ABC car park solutions at the entrance. You are right it does not state that you have 10 minutes to pay, rendering their signs to pay within ten minutes inside unnecessary to observe. It should also state that the car park is under the aegis of either the BPA or IPC. Probably neither would want to put their name to this one though. 

Then they have another company signing a sign as ABC Facilities Management Ltd and yet a third company on the pay machine-Star Park. And all but the pay machine have the added name of CEL. It just goes to show that POPLA  is unfit for the purpose but it is good news for you since the site is such an absolute joke that no Judge would take it seriously.

 

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I guess I'd never submitted their true signs to POPLA as I didn't think they would reject my appeal. POPLA just used CEL's photographs and made a decision based on that. I believe I have paid or at least attempted to pay as soon as I'd parked up was good enough reason to cancel my ticket. I remember looking at their photographs on POPLA's appeal and it was big bright yellow and you can clearly see 'Pay within 10mins of arrival'. But when I got there on Friday, I didn't see it right away as it blended in so well with the other texts and it took me a long while to find those words. I even thought those words were removed. 

 

I guess I can ignore all threats and wait for the Letter before Claim. Have saved all my evidence in a special folder on my laptop incase I ever need it. 

 

Thank you all for your support and advice. I have learnt so much from this charge from reading the forums and spending the time looking into this. I normally would pay without even acknowledging but this time I really felt I wasn't in the wrong and believed the ticket should be cancelled. My husband still thinks I should pay and forget about it. 

 

I will be posting all threats here as they come so others can see how pathetic their constant extending deadlines are from various fake debt companies writing on behalf of each other and increasing the charge along the way until they take the case to court. They are using time and mind games to make people give in. 

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Save a backup copy of that folder all to an external USB pen don't just trust the laptops drive

We could do with some help from you.

PLEASE HELP US TO KEEP THIS SITE RUNNING EVERY POUND DONATED WILL HELP US TO KEEP HELPING OTHERS

 

Have we helped you ...?         Please Donate button to the Consumer Action Group

 

If you want advice on your thread please PM me a link to your thread

 

The bailiff: A 12th Century solution re-branded as Enforcement Agents for the 21st Century to seize and sell debtors goods as before Oh so Dickensian!

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