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    • Hi allets, CCA to whoever is the debt owner today, let us know their response, or lack there of, for further guidance   Or you could read up other threads and the advice will be the same   BT
    • OK, let's get stuck into these damn fleecers.  Building on last night's version, new bits in red.   LFI, can you check I've understood the POFA bits properly that you suggested (4.  NO KEEPER LIABILITY)?  Thanks.     IN THE COUNTY COURT SHEFFIELD    CLAIM NO: XXXX   HX PARKING LTD  (CLAIMANT) VS XXX (DEFENDANT)   Date: 3rd May 2022   Witness Statement   1. I, Mr XXX, of xxx am the Defendant against whom this claim is made.   1.1. I was the registered keeper of the vehicle XXX.   1.2. The facts in this statement come from my personal knowledge. Where they are not within my own knowledge they are true to the best of my information and belief.   INSUFFICIENT & CONFUSING SIGNAGE   2. I confirm that i was the Registered Keeper of the vehicle which is in question in this case and the vehicle was parked in Alma Leisure Centre, Chesterfield. The vehicle was parked there because the driver went to McDonald’s for eat in (bank statement proof exhibit 1).   2.1. There were no clear signs at the entrance nor in the car park, it was night time and weather was not clear as well.   2.2.  In their Witness Statement opposing my set aside application the Claimant includes a site plan showing the position of their signs and a close up of a sign to make it look like it is featured in the Guinness Book of Records as the largest billboard in world history.   2.3.  The reality for the motorist is completely different.  I attach photos, some from Google Earth but most taken by myself, which show what a motorist sees when approaching the site in daylight (exhibit 2).  There is no sign at the entrance.  The car then drives past a gym and a cinema without encountering any signs.  When then parking in the car park outside McDonald's once again there is dearth of signage.  Admittedly a motorist who perhaps came out with binoculars might just about be able to make out signs in the far distance mounted on various buildings.   2.4.  The driver visited the site around midnight.  I further attach photos taken at night from the McDonald's area (exhibit 3) and defy whoever is representing HX Parking at the hearing to point out the signs the driver should have read.  There aren't any.  I have not doctored these photos in any way or deliberately not photographed visible signs.  There simply are no visible signs.   2.5.  Even if the driver had seen the signs, they would have been extremely confusing.  A car is normally allowed to be parked for five hours, yet after midnight this is changed to one hour.  This begs the question for how long a motorist entering at 10pm for example is allowed to stay.  Is it for five hours until 3am or until 1am?   2.6. The PCN/NTK states "period of parking 00:02:05".  It is common sense that a couple of minutes was needed to enter the complex, find McDonald's and find a parking space, before the period of parking began, so it is likely the car entered the car park before midnight allowing the driver to park the car there for five hours.   2.7.  Even if the driver had seen the signage - they did not - the mention of a £100 charge is literally the last word on the last line of a long board of text.   UNFAIR TERM   3.  In an interview with the local newspaper (exhibit 4) Ms Ellie Berkeley, HX PCN administration team leader, said: “The five-hour maximum stay prevents workers from close by abusing the land and parking there for free, without using the shops on site" which makes sense.   3.1.  This therefore begs the question of why this limit is cut by a massive 80% after midnight when the cinema and eateries are still open.  The driver indeed ate at McDonald's.   3.2.  Ms Berkeley continued: "Five hours is sufficient time to visit the cinema and also eat at a restaurant".  Certainly five hours are sufficient.  One hour is not.    3.3.  I would maintain this is an unfair term under the Consumer Rights Act 2015 part 2 section 62 (6) ""A notice is unfair if, contrary to the requirement of good faith, it causes a significant imbalance in the parties’ rights and obligations to the detriment of the consumer".  Such a term has absolutely nothing to do with efficient management of a car park and everything to do with trying to catch diners or cinema-goers out and thus have an excuse to issue PCNs.   NO KEEPER LIABILITY   4. The Particulars of Claim do not clarify in what capacity they believe I am liable but state that the Defendant is “liable as the driver or keeper” of the vehicle. This appears to be “fishing” for liability.     4.1.  The Claimant's PCN does not comply with Section 4 of the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012.  POFA states that a parking period must be stated and it is quite clear that entering and leaving the car park does not constitute a parking period since some of the time the motorist is either driving around looking for a parking spot then leaving the spot and driving to the exit.  All that takes time.   4.2.  To transfer liability of the alleged debt from the driver to the keeper, in their PCN the Claimant must include the wording at Schedule 4 s9 [2][f] this "(if all the applicable conditions under this Schedule are met)" but they have not. That in itself makes it non-compliant.   LOCUS STANDI   5.  Looking at the contract with the landowner which the Claimant included when opposing my set aside application, the names of the signatories and their positions in their respective  companies have been redacted.  The Claimant is put to strict proof of who actually signed.   5.1.  There is no specific authorisation from the Client to allow court action in pursuit of non payers.   In section 11 which is like an addendum it states "the Company shall provide parking control" but does not state if that includes legal pursuit as well and it does not appear to be signed.   ILLEGAL SIGNAGE   6.  After checking, I have found out that there in NO planning permission granted for said signs, therefore making them illegal as lack of planning permission is a criminal offence under the Road Traffic Acts 1962 and 1991 and no contract can be performed where criminality is concerned.   6.1.  The Claimant is supposed to comply with the law and the IPC Code of Conduct and they have done neither.  The new government Private Parking Code of Practice draws attention as well to s14.1 [g]  "g) responsibility for obtaining relevant consents e.g. planning or advertising consents relating to signs."   ABUSE OF PROCESS   7. The Claimant seeks recovery of the original £100 parking charge plus an additional £60 described as “contractual costs and interest” or “debt collection costs”. No further justification or breakdown has been provided as required under Civil Procedure Rule 16.4.    7.1.  As part of the provisions of the Parking (Code of Practice) Act 2019, on 07/02/2022 a new Code of Practice was published by the government, designed to prevent these “rogue” traders from "ripping people off" (the minister's words) with extra charges, which have been deemed unfair (https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/privateparking-code-of-practice/private-parking-code-of-practice).    7.2.  Section 9 of the new Code of Practice, regulates the matter of recovery costs: “The parking operator must not levy additional costs over and above the level of a parking charge or parking tariff as originally issued” (exhibit 5).   7.3.  Even before publication of the government’s Code of Practice, Parliament intended that private parking companies could not invent extra charges. PoFA Schedule 4, paragraph 4(5) states that “The maximum sum which may be recovered from the keeper is the amount specified in the notice to keeper” which in this case is £100.    7.4.  Previous parking charge cases have found that the parking charge itself is at a level to include the costs of recovery ie: Parking Eye Ltd vs Beavis (2015) UKSC 67 which is the authority for recovery of the parking charge itself and no more, since that sum (£85) was held to already incorporate the costs of an automated private parking business model and the Supreme Court Judges held that a parking firm not in possession cannot plead any part of their case in damages. It is indisputable that an alleged “parking charge” penalty is a sum which the Supreme Court found is already inflated to more than comfortably cover all costs. The case provides a finding of fact by way of precedent, that the £85 (or up to a Trade Body ceiling of £100 depending on the parking firm) covers the costs of the letters. Since 2019, many County Courts have considered claims in excess of £100 to be an abuse of process leading to them being struck out ab initio. An example, in the Caernarfon Court in VCS v Davies, case No. FTQZ4W28 on 4th September 2019, District Judge Jones-Evans stated ‘’Upon it being recorded that District Judge Jones-Evans has over a very significant period of time warned advocates [...] in many cases of this nature before this court that their claim for £60 is unenforceable in law and is an abuse of process and is nothing more than a poor attempt to go behind the decision of the Supreme Court v Beavis which inter alia decided that a figure of £160 as a global sum claimed in this case would be a penalty and not a genuine pre-estimate of loss and therefore unenforceable in law and if the practice continued, he would treat all cases as a claim for £160 and therefore a penalty and unenforceable in law it is hereby declared [...] the claim is struck out and declared to be wholly without merit and an abuse of process.’’   7.5.  In Claim numbers F0DP806M and F0DP201T, Britannia vs Crosby the courts went further in a landmark judgement in November 2019 which followed several parking charge claims being struck out in the area overseen by His Honour Judge Iain Hamilton Douglas Hughes GC, the Designated Civil Judge for Dorset, Hampshire, Isle of Wight & Wiltshire. District Judge Taylor echoed earlier General Judgment or Orders of District Judge Grand, stating ‘’It is ordered that the claim is struck out as an abuse of process. The claim contains a substantial charge additional to the parking charge which it is alleged the Defendant contracted to pay. This additional charge is not recoverable under the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012, Schedule 4 nor with reference to the judgment in ParkingEye v Beavis. It is an abuse of process from the Claimant to issue a knowingly inflated claim for an additional sum which it is not entitled to recover. This order has been made by the court of its own initiative without a hearing pursuant to CPR Rule 3.3(4) of the Civil Procedure Rules 1998...''    7.6. The addition of costs not previously specified on signage are also in breach of the Consumer Rights Act 2015, Schedule 2, specifically paras 6, 10 and 14.   Statement of Truth    I believe that the facts stated in this Witness Statement are true.   I understand that proceedings for contempt of Court may be brought against anyone who makes, or causes to be made, a false statement in a document verified by a statement of truth without an honest belief in its truth.
    • Hi dx100uk. I didn't know about the above. Do I request a new CCA from Cabot? Are you  also suggesting that I stop payments to Cabot until this is sorted out?  I have since then built up a good credit rating from the reference agencies  and would not like to turn this sour again. It took some time to get straight. Allets.
    • ah! FCA their new name (well 15yrs ago) for the FSA.   interesting they helped here this must mean they have had a series of complaints then.   dx      
    • so YOU have already responded to the TfL letter NOT you mother? YOU need to respond by begging not her!!   have you still the original TfL letter please.?   p'haps if you have please scan it up to PDF read upload   and also do this with the summons you have  is this single justice procedure hearing with 3 options as that other thread you posted on above?   dx      
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caught using MIL's freedom pass - 50+ uses **RESOLVED**


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I changed it a bit as you advised.

Add a part that he didn't know it is a criminal offence to use someone's card.

Do you think it is a good thing to include? Because it is true.

Also I am gonna include payment for oyster, and his dbs needed for the job. 

 

Bazza, no I didn't ask the solicitors specifically for enhanced dbs so this 1yr is probably for basic. 

I am aiming to send the letter on Monday so waiting for your last advice pls. 

Also do I send it to the same email as the 1st letter???? because now I have only court address in the court letter...

Thanks in advance!

 

Dear sir or madam,

I am writing to you again and I want to say that I deeply regret my actions which were completely out of character and as a result of stupidity. What I did was wrong and I am sorry for wasting staff time and I feel very shameful for my behaviour! I was not aware that it is a criminal offence to use someone else's oyster.

As a sole income earner for my family a criminal record would be devastating for me as my employment relies upon a clean criminal history. I work two jobs in order to meet ends. I do dry cleaning and security job. For my security job I need a clean enhanced DBS and if I get a criminal record it means I will not be able to work which will make my financial situation even harder.

I am a hard working man, with two small children (2 and 5 year old). My wife is not working as she is looking after the kids. I am also trying to support my sister in Pakistan (and her 2 children) who became a widow last year at age of 33!

I have been paying for my travel since that day and I am attaching a proof of it. It has been hard year for me with the pandemic and all. I pride myself on my integrity and honesty and this is my first ever offence of any legal matter. And it is surely the last!
I am asking TFL for an Out of court settlement meeting  all reasonable admin costs and payment for the journeys made.

Once again I deeply apologise,  I am very stressed and anxious about the situation and I really hope that you can show some leniency in this matter and this can be settled without a criminal record.

Please find attached a proof of my security job and the DBS that is required. Also statement showing my travel payments.

Yours faithfully,

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  • 3 weeks later...

any news?

dx

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please don't hit Quote...just type we know what we said earlier..

DCA's view debtors as suckers, marks and mugs

NO DCA has ANY legal powers whatsoever on ANY debt no matter what it's Type

and they

are NOT and can NEVER  be BAILIFFS. even if a debt has been to court..

If everyone stopped blindly paying DCA's Tomorrow, their industry would collapse overnight... 

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  • 2 weeks later...

You can still try for ooc even in person to their rep on the day before you go in

 

we've had 2 resolved like that.

 

Dx

please don't hit Quote...just type we know what we said earlier..

DCA's view debtors as suckers, marks and mugs

NO DCA has ANY legal powers whatsoever on ANY debt no matter what it's Type

and they

are NOT and can NEVER  be BAILIFFS. even if a debt has been to court..

If everyone stopped blindly paying DCA's Tomorrow, their industry would collapse overnight... 

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Share on other sites

I think it's important that you turn up and show the court how remorseful you are. As dx says, you can speak to the prosecutor on the day and try to negotiate an OOC agreement. We've always said to expect to hand over cash for this.

 

HB

Illegitimi non carborundum

 

 

 

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Sorry, but what means to "hand over cash for this"???? Do you mean to give extra cash straight to the prosecutor? Or is this that all fines need to be paid on the time and in full, in cash? Or anything else? Thx

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It means “If they offer an out of court settlement, you’d be expected to pay it in one go, so you can’t offer instalments”

It’d be for all the costs : the avoided fares, their court costs and admin expenses.

 

It also means they might not be able to take a cheque (what if it ‘bounced’?).

 

So, the best way for them to know any settlement sum has been paid is to go with cash to do so.

 

Just make it clear it is for if they offer an out of court disposal, and that you’ll ask for a receipt - the last thing you want to do when you are accepting you previously acted dishonestly is to inadvertently make it look like you are offering a bribe in cash!

Edited by BazzaS
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jezbo, you say you are going to court

so you've got the court letter?

 

scan it up please!

read our upload guide carefully

 

has it also got a list of charges to be taken into consideration?

 

we need to see it please

please don't hit Quote...just type we know what we said earlier..

DCA's view debtors as suckers, marks and mugs

NO DCA has ANY legal powers whatsoever on ANY debt no matter what it's Type

and they

are NOT and can NEVER  be BAILIFFS. even if a debt has been to court..

If everyone stopped blindly paying DCA's Tomorrow, their industry would collapse overnight... 

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15 hours ago, honeybee13 said:

I think it's important that you turn up and show the court how remorseful you are. As dx says, you can speak to the prosecutor on the day and try to negotiate an OOC agreement. We've always said to expect to hand over cash for this.

 

HB

 

5 hours ago, Jeboz said:

Sorry, but what means to "hand over cash for this"???? Do you mean to give extra cash straight to the prosecutor? Or is this that all fines need to be paid on the time and in full, in cash? Or anything else? Thx

 

@honeybee13  I'm sure I understand what you meant by your suggestion, but bearing in mind that english may not be the OP's first language, it is perhaps possible that they might completely misunderstand your suggestion and end up in more trouble!   🙂

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Thank you all for the "cash" explanations :) Not a native English speaker here, yes and it may become confusing But after the 1st person that explained it all made sense and clear now. I thought it was like this but as this is something completely new experience for me I wanted to be 100% sure what we are talking about.

 

Now about the court letter I have uploaded that long ago...I think November 🤔 

 

Now, also 1 more question just come to my mind. My husband requires STANDARD dbs for his security job. So it doesn't say ENHANCED. In case of criminal conviction how this is gonna affect it? Is it same 11 years as you mentioned before?

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Sorry yes was on a small screen.

 

Funny how it says settle at the earliest, but wont allow ooc?

 

Dx

please don't hit Quote...just type we know what we said earlier..

DCA's view debtors as suckers, marks and mugs

NO DCA has ANY legal powers whatsoever on ANY debt no matter what it's Type

and they

are NOT and can NEVER  be BAILIFFS. even if a debt has been to court..

If everyone stopped blindly paying DCA's Tomorrow, their industry would collapse overnight... 

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  • 4 weeks later...

Happy new year everyone!

 

Thank you all for your help and guidance. Today was the court date and unfortunately he couldn't sort it OOC with the prosecutor. They fned him £600+ which is about 50% of the original total because they accept his apology.

 

He has now 7 days to pay.

I am not yet sure about the criminal record but will update if I have more information. 

 

Once again, thank you so much! 

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not as bad an outcome as could have been then, bearing in mind it was +100 uses.

 

we have seen these not result in a criminal record too, he might have succeeded there too.

 

can he remember what the judge actually said?

if he said just pay the sum, without mentioning a record, then he might well be ok.

 

glad to have helped

 

dx

  • I agree 1

please don't hit Quote...just type we know what we said earlier..

DCA's view debtors as suckers, marks and mugs

NO DCA has ANY legal powers whatsoever on ANY debt no matter what it's Type

and they

are NOT and can NEVER  be BAILIFFS. even if a debt has been to court..

If everyone stopped blindly paying DCA's Tomorrow, their industry would collapse overnight... 

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  • dx100uk changed the title to caught using MIL's freedom pass -poss100+ uses **RESOLVED**

Yes, we also think it went well taking into consideration that he really did so much wrong. He did show how remorseful he is.

 

The judge said to him to pay in 7 days and they gave him a paper with the reference number for payment. 

 

When my husband asked about the criminal record they said to him that IT will show In the letter that he will receive in the next few days.

So we still don't have it.  Will update.

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Hi, could you please explain what the process of court was like for your husband? Did he try to ask for an out of court when he arrived or did he just go straight in and plead his case? 

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He went there, it was very busy at the court.

 

His case was for 2pm but then it went on at around 4.

 

He spoke to the prosecutor to ask for OOC agreement but this was not accepted.

 

Then inside the Court they asked him questions about why he did it, he apologised and explained his situation and then the court gave him a letter with the amount he has to pay.

 

Hope that helps.

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The Criminal conviction (since this is a Magistrates' Court criminal case) is stated, as : (The offense of) "Enter a compulsory ticket area on the Transport for London regional railway network without a valid ticket."

 

This is a Byelaw offense [under Byelaw 17(1)  ],

https://content.tfl.gov.uk/railway-byelaws.pdf

so it remains to be seen if it 'recordable' (that is showing as a criminal conviction on:

a DBS check (standard disclosure) , and if not if it will show on an enhanced (eDBS) check.

 

If you aren't sure it won't show : better to disclose it e.g. for employment , as it is a minor offence, than risk being found not to have disclosed it.

 

For the purposes of any visa or residency applications (UK or abroad, such as the USA), better to disclose it, as it is a minor offence, than risk the more major offence of being seen to provide false information. So, I wouldn't risk traveling to the USA on an ESTA for example ..... safer to apply for and get a visa than risk being found to have made a false ESTA declaration.

Edited by BazzaS
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  • dx100uk changed the title to caught using MIL's freedom pass - 50+ uses **RESOLVED**
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