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    • I've also seen it mentioned that the two parts of Ireland becoming closer is concerning HMG.   And that NI still coming under EU rules for trade could be showing that it's better to be in the EU than in Brexit Britain. If people start to think it shows Brexit isn't working, that's going to be a problem for Johnson et al.
    • You won't be able to bring a counterclaim unless you can produce a properly structured assessment of losses or costs or ancillary expenses and you will need to do this by producing at least written assessment et cetera as I have indicated above. Two of them would be much better. A court won't entertain a counterclaim simply based on your own speculation as to your possible costs. I understand very well that your preference would be to write off the entire job including all of the materials that were supplied and for you to recover your outlay for those materials but I think in order to do that you would have to show that you have acquired no value from those materials and once again I think that you would need an expert assessment which explained why the materials were completely wasted and that you would have to start from zero. You can be certain that the claimant will attempt to say that you have received value and in fact that the items which have been supplied or already installed can still be used. I'm afraid that because the attempt to arrange this contract as a cash only agreement inevitably invites the scepticism of the court, I think the court may well be open to consider arguments that the items which have already been supplied are of use to you. If you can get expert confirmation that the supplied materials are now of no use whatsoever, then you will also have to get a quote for uninstalling them and returning them to the claimant. This means that the whole thing is getting even more complicated. I do think that your best interests would be to discuss the matter with your new installer and to see what items which have been already supplied can be used to finish the project – and then to try and deal with the claimant in respect of those on the basis that the case would be withdrawn and everybody would walk away. I think it's time to start abandoning some of this rancour between you because it isn't helping and it won't impress anybody. Don't underestimate the disapproval that will be felt by the court when they get to know about the cash arrangement and this won't be helped by the fact that you then went ahead to try and get receipts. I understand very well that you say that you simply provided money and that in fact you were the purchaser of the items directly from the retailer – but there is no evidence for that and it would be an unusual arrangement and I think the court might express scepticism about that as well. I think we have to bear in mind your credibility in this – and I think that it is rather fragile at the moment. If you came up with a sensible business- like idea about how to put this one to bed and then put it to the claimant and also mention the fact that as he was involved in a cash only transaction, he also might find that he is incurring the displeasure of the court – particularly as he is the claimant, he might feel inclined to try and wrap it all up and bring it to an end. I think the next thing you must do is to get an expert report as I've already suggested above. You will need to do this anyway. If you don't have an expert report then even if you happen to win your argument that there is a breach of contract, the assessment of how much you win will be impossible for the court to decide. The court will absolutely want expert assessments. So you need an assessment as to the work which has been carried out so far and the work needed and costs involved to carry out the job. You need an assessment as to the usability or otherwise of the equipment which has been supplied. At least that for the moment. I don't think it is possible to do much more until you have this information. If you can get the information then we can decide what to do. Obviously I don't know anything about the subject, but I can't imagine that all of the equipment which has been supplied is useless. It could only be useless if you suddenly say that you want an entirely different system of gates – but on that matter, you are bound by your expectation in the contract and you would only be entitled to install a similar system using similar equipment.  
    • I wonder whether part of the UK issue with current NI protocol, is that it is enabling a better trading environment between Ireland and Northern Ireland.     Northern Irish businesses have anticipated import/export issues with Great Britain, so now trade with Ireland or via Ireland.   Apparently reports are that some Northern Irish businesses have seen an increase in trade. It is only businesses that mostly sell British fresh produce that have been affected by border controls  and even then, they could swap to local produce.   Agree that UK Government are using argument with EU as a convenient distraction, but also there must be a worry about increased risk of a united Ireland, as a indirect consequence of Brexit.
    • Fintan O'Toole has an article about the Brexit negotiations and what he thinks HMG's aims are.   Facing chaos and needing a scapegoat, the Tories seek an endless fight with Europe | Fintan O’Toole | The Guardian WWW.THEGUARDIAN.COM The EU’s proposals on the Northern Ireland protocol offered what business leaders wanted, but the prime minister prefers failure and grievance  
    • The carmaking giant is investing £230m in its Halewood plant, safeguarding 500 jobs.View the full article
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Speeding fine -41 in a 30 - wrong roads on NIP?


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I received a notice of intended prosecution for doing 41 in a 30 zone. I am not disputing that I was wrong and will pay or do the course. 

 

On the nip it says that I was travelling west bound between two particular roads , when I was travelling east bound between another set of roads .

 

The police with the radar gun were hiding on the opposite side of the road in a bus stop.

Just wondered when I send this form back admitting I was the driver I should point this out to them 

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Posted (edited)

You can point it out but I wouldn't expect it to achieve anything unless the error is so gross that they decide to drop it out of embarrassment.

 

I think the general rule is that this sort of error only helps you if you are put at a disadvantage as a result of it.  But as you say:

 

1 hour ago, colin1096 said:

... I am not disputing that I was wrong and will pay or do the course. 

 

On the noip it says that I was travelling west bound between two particular roads , when I was travelling east bound between another set of roads ...

 

You seem to know exactly what has happened and have not been disadvantaged.  So I think you are stuck - but see if anybody else has any better ideas.  And it doesn't help you if they were "hiding".

 

Make sure you return your nomination in time.

 

(Just to check - if you are the Registered Keeper, was it served within 14 days?)

Edited by Manxman in exile
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  • dx100uk changed the title to Speeding fine -41 in a 30 - wrong roads on NIP?

Agree with Manxman. The NIP has to show "...the nature of the alleged offence and the time and place where it is alleged to have been committed." 

 

As Manxman points out, the basis of the NIP is to provide you with sufficient information so as you are not disadvantaged. If you want to defend the matter on the basis that the NIP did not meet the requirements (of S1 of the Road Traffic Offenders' Act) you will have to have the matter heard in court. You will be required to give evidence and so be liable to cross examination. You will be questioned on the disadvantage you suggest the error caused you. You are unlikely to convince the court that the NIP was deficient enough to provide a defence (especially as you know exactly where the offence occurred) and failure will cost you the thick end of £1,000.

 

You should be offered a course for that speed provided you have not done one for an offence which occurred in the three years prior to this one.

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Posted (edited)

Exactly the same thing happened to me a few years ago.  I was summoned for speeding on the A127 when it should have been the A12.

 

I went into court and the charge was read.  The police officer was already in the witness box and he told the CPS solicitor there was a problem and he told the court.  The clerk then re-read the offence with the correct roads.  I simply said "with respect, that isn't the charge I was summoned here to face."  The clerk looked at the bench who looked at each other.  The CPS solicitor then stood and said "the summons is faulty and is withdrawn."

 

And that was it.

Edited by SpeedyCBR1100
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Thanks,  I have put a letter with a copy of the notice of prosecution explaining that I was not travelling on that road. I wouldn't want to go to court over a technical error I'm case I lost. Will just do the course. Thanks everyone for your advice.

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Wait and see what they offer you then.  As I said above, if they have made a mistake it is possible that they might decide not to proceed out of embarrassment, even if the error is not such as to disadvantage you.  They did in SpeedyCBR1100's case.  You might get lucky too.

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The difference between your case and Speedy's is that his involved an error on the summons. Yours is on the NIP. The two are judged at different levels, but nonetheless I am surprised that the court did not permit an amendment to the summons. As an aside, minor motoring offences are not commenced by way of summons now. They begin with a "Single Justice Procedure Notice" (sent to the defendant) together with a "Written Charge" (sent to the court).

 

There is a different strategy you could consider. Before you return the Section 172 notice providing the driver's details, you could ask for "any photographs that will help identify the driver." They don't have to provide them but usually will. They don't usually help identify the driver (especially those taken from the rear) but it is a way of avoiding asking for "evidence" to which you are not entitled at this stage. When you have them you can confirm the location and if the NIP and S172 request state it incorrectly you could reply saying that your vehicle was not in the location mentioned at the relevant time.

 

This is a risky business. Unless the police drop the matter out of "embarrassment" you will face a charge of "Failing to Provide Driver's Details" - an offence which carries six points. Whether you are convicted of that depends very much on all the circumstances and it's impossible to give a view here. But it might be worth a try. It is not your job to second guess what the police really mean when they ask who was driving your car at 12 noon in the High Street. You could give it some thought.

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You're absolutely correct.  I was stopped by an officer who actually looked like a pig.  He tried to give me a verbal NIP but couldn't' quite remember it so helped him out.  (I am an ex Police Officer.)  There was therefore no need for a written follow up.

 

I did actually guess that he would screw something else up and so it proved.

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Thanks for your advice . I returned the notice of prosecution form saying I was the driver and put a letter in saying it was the wrong road. Today I received another NIP with different reference number on it but this time with the correct road and the same time and date and speed as the first one . I am a bit confused do I send this back aswell and hope they don't fine me twice . 

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What date of alleged offence is on the second NIP, and

a) when is it dated,

b) when is it postmarked.

(I note it was received 5/8/21)

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First letter offence 11.25am 27th July received 29th July sent 28th juky

 

Second letter offence 11.25am 27th July dated 03/08/21 received today

 

Roads have changed on the 2 letters

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  • 1 month later...

Here in Scotland a few years ago the local council misnamed a road. They discovered the error after a year or so. The police had to contact every person caught speeding on that road and cancel any prosecution. Whether they did or not is another matter. 

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