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money demands from someone who didnt preform the work, consumer rights

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Obviously very sorry about your grandfather. Was it Covid related? Must be very difficult.

I'm afraid that the courts don't hang around with deadlines – and looking at the temperament of your adversary, I don't expect it will cut any ice there so when you can get round to it, we will get a move on

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90% works completed although £1000 due because he didn’t let us carry out work

£1000 was the total labour element on his estimate, he estimated 3-4days work. 90% was not done


he with brother attended (have dated photo) 29/04 for about 5 hours and 30/04 about 4 hours-never came back after that- he told us to get someone else (in writing and in his claim point 5)

What was the total cost of the job?

Why did he and his brother walk off the job?

Has he been told about the existence of this photo?

quoted works and costumer agreed and paid deposit,

He made us pay £100 just to visit our home- we reluctantly paid (text evidence)


Sent an ‘estimate’ £3165 (confirmed only an estimate in texts) we have texts saying too high, what are our other options, he said he would look for other part providers- never did supply other options in the end, just said ‘looked around nothing cheaper’


In the end said can you make it cheaper and do £3000 cash- he said yes,


We asked could we have a receipt etc if cash and warranty- he said would NOT give us a receipt for cash but warranty covered (all in texts)


He said we had to pay for all materials up front, this was not a deposit, he told us to give him £2165 cash for all materials. So only labour left to pay at end

Hundred pounds for the visit is not relevant.



Is this estimate of £3165 the price of the whole job? Or simply the price of the parts?






Was this a verbal agreement?



Was that a written warranty?

Do you have any evidence that he said that there would be no receipt for a cash payment


is any of this arrangement in respect of the purchase of materials in writing?

In particular, is there any evidence that you were actually the purchaser of the materials rather than him?

Came across problems with unusual gate opening size and customer didn’t want underground motors, we searched and searched and kept customer informed

Nothing unusual. It’s a large gate opening, catered for by all gate manufacturers,


No searching and searching-just needed articulated arm system, this conversation of requirements was only about 4-5  texts





Yes didn’t want underground motors as too much water falls in that area and would be more expensive and intrusive-part of the above conversation in texts

So you agree to this?




So are you saying that an articulated arm system is quite normal?

We kept to our agreed price, even though many more hours spent on job

No price was agreed at the point the conversations above were happening with what system we required, all text messages before any estimate sent,

No hours spent, just a visit , some texts and an estimate, he made us pay £100 for!

Presumably a price was agreed otherwise they wouldn’t have started work.


I think you need to stop obsessing about this hundred pounds for the visit.

It seems that you agreed to this and he did carry out the visit. I don’t think there is any mileage here



Works started and started well, 2 full days with two men, chased drive out and laid all cables, attached arms and motors in place

Messaged him on day (have text) to start as was a no show on 28/04 to say its because its raining he’ll start tomorrow


Didn’t turn up until approx. 10.30 next day 29/04 with brother (photo taken at 13.39pm) shows three cables on floor and 2 inch channel- only , reflecting not much work done- also left about 3, when I did school run, he wasn’t there when I returned as I remember, no further works done


Turned up late again about 10.30 Friday 30/04

Continued attaching motor brackets and articulated arms on gates, sensor on gate posts

Left about 1-30 2pm saying ‘well it is a Friday’

See you Monday, have witnesses who were fitting our bifolds that day


Never came back





So he didn’t turn up on the first day because it was raining.

Is this unreasonable?


Had there been an agreement that he would turn up earlier than this time?

I take the point that these are not “full days”





Rain fell heavily on third day so postponed

when he didn’t show up Monday , asked where he was said, he was missing parts and had to order them, first we heard of any missing parts, he told us nothing and just didn’t show up

This is plausible but of course it is reasonable for you to have expected him to let you know in advance.

Moved jobs about causing a headache to get the job done asap

Not our problem, he walked off telling us nothing and didn’t show on third day, so if his other jobs were affected I don’t care he left us high and dry with no information.

I agree

Client demanded vat receipts from my suppliers so he could claim back, i said its in my name and business so not possible, now im being accused of hiding stuff eg cost etc, either way he accepted my quote

Text evidence before estimate given states we want materials plus labour quote, and vat receipts for the materials , he said ok


While waiting for ‘missing parts’ and he was away from job we asked for these receipts for the parts he made us give him money for


He refused, despite it being a requirement in writing


We didn’t accept quote, he sent as per his texts and ‘estimate’ , we said too high, can we do £3000 cash- he in writing agreed yes In a text

Can we see copies of these text messages please.














Can we see a copy of this text please

Due to above we fell out , I was having personal issues and I said find someone else

Yes – he wouldn’t give us receipts of parts and said im not coming back you don’t trust me

Just pay for what ive done


We said no, the system isn’t installed, don’t have parts etc that’s a breach of contract to walk out


We said don’t be silly , just get in with the job

But He never showed up again,


He also sent text saying, just have those few hours for free  then after we quoted breach of contract







Is there any of the work which is usable? In other words is it possible to get somebody else to complete the job and how much would it cost?




I don’t think that could be taken as being binding on him

Soon after 1-2 days I asked for reasonable part payment for works carried out, he said I haven’t fulfilled my contract, so I agreed to come back and he accepted,

No-asked for 80%, but not installed missing parts, days to go etc


Yes told him he breached contract walking off and saying never coming back


he reluctantly said fine ill come back we asked for a date in  a text dated 17/05

Have you got any evidence of this?








But as my date given was a few weeks away, he refused and said they don’t feel confident having me back,

The date to return he gave in text was 07/06 so six weeks after starting job and nearly three weeks after we asked


We felt we couldn’t wait another three weeks for him not to show up due to repeated texts saying will never come back and previous two attempts for his attendance ending in no shows


We also text saying that’s too long as heavy gates pinned back by a tarmac bag are a danger to us and public



Plus his attitude , we didn’t want him near house



Can we see a copy of this text please











Can we see a copy of this text please









Yet no other reason brought up along the way, no issues

Yes – dangerous gates pinned back

Missing parts, gate stops, emergency stops etc

Repeated no shows


Broken circuit boards, sensors etc he provided

Faulty motors still at manufacturers




Can we have a list of these missing items and costs of supplying them.


Have you contacted the manufacturers and what have they said


No real reason other than they wanted to try and get the work done quicker, or have the current works done for free

No- its been 6 months and still have no working gates ! despite paying other electrical company  £600 for 5 days work, and another friend doing ones days work for free


Now been quoted another £500 by specialist gate company to help us to finish



Do you have evidence of this £600 expenditure?






Do you have a copy of this quote?

As he said he was going to do himself before I contracted him

Why would we seek out company to install if we were going to do ourselves


So I suspect as I had done most of it, dean would now finish the easy but avoid paying me

Hasn’t done most of it

Paid a lot of money to other people to try and install, no avoidance of paying money to anyone


Also not replying, if not paid before go to court and will add £25 a week

Of course I didn’t reply- hes a mad lunatic, who had no claim so wasn’t concerned

£25 a week under what terms ?- none

Don’t worry about this. There is no basis for it


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I've asked if we can have sight of some of the text exchanges that you had.

Please can you post these up in a single file multipage PDF with the texts in date order starting with the earliest.

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No it's necessary now. Otherwise I wouldn't ask.

Are we going to have another tussle about things we need to advise you?



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Copy them into a document and then redact the personal details and put the rest up here.

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attached some conversation

_texts redacted.pdf


one doc is was quote/estimate given, and we said too high what else is there sent 09/04/2021




other is quote/ receipt he sent when we asked for receipt, and proof of payments made to him

hence why its dated 11/05/2021


nearly two weeks after he started



im away from computer for a bit, how best to answer questions asked above-  copy and paste or do another tabular document 

__05.04.3021_V1_KR ELECTRICAL & MAINTENANCE_INVOICE-redacted.pdf __05.04.3021_V1_KR ELECTRICAL & MAINTENANCE_QUOTE redacted.pdf

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Have you sent an acknowledgement of the claim?

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I've been looking through your comments and also been looking through the correspondence between you.

I'm coming away with a slightly different impression from the one that you've given originally. You may think that this is not the correct impression, but at the moment on the evidence that you have provided to us – and presumably that is the same evidence that you would provide to a court, I think the court might also form a slightly different impression.

This doesn't mean that the installer is not in breach of contract – but I think that the behaviour may not be quite as reasonable as you have been suggesting.
Obviously we would need to look through it again.

The first thing I see – or rather I don't see – is any evidence that you were to be the purchaser of the material to be used in the gates installation. I do see that you are quoted for the cost of materials and that in a way that was quoted as a separate element of the contract, but I don't think it is uncommon for small businesses to ask for money for materials upfront so that they don't have to invest their own money.

If that is correct that KR is actually the supplier of the materials – and not the company which sold them to him – then it seems to me that you would be entitled to any receipts.
Receipts would be his business – and the VAT would be his business – not yours.
Maybe you can point to some specific evidence that shows that there was always the intention that you would be the direct purchaser of the equipment and you would then supply to KR who was merely an installer.
I think I'm assisted in this view not only by the fact that there doesn't seem to any evidence what you say, but also I think it would be most unusual in this industry to have the customer supply complicated technical non-consumer equipment to an installer simply to fit into place.
This will be particularly so where it is the installer who has specified what material needs to be used.

I'm troubled also by the fact that this was apparently a cash transaction. From the evidence that you have supplied, it is yourself who asked for the job to be done "cash" and it seems to me that there is a clear intention here that if you don't ask for any receipts for any of the work, then it can be done off the books giving a price advantage to you and also an additional benefit to the installer.
You need to be aware that if this goes to court, this will come out and neither of you seem to realise that the courts will take an extremely dim view of an arrangement which appears to be an agreement to evade the Revenue.

I also see in the exchange of correspondence between you that even before the work started, KR seems to have given you notice that if there was bad weather, that he wouldn't be able to work.
In other words this is not a situation where he told you after having stopped working that it was as a result of wet weather – although I have to say that as this is an outdoor job, I don't think anybody would think it would be unreasonable for someone not want to work in the rain.

These are some of the early impressions that I have.

Maybe you would like to comment briefly please

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materials ,

we’re not from a trade supplier ,

they were a website for general public to purchase off the shelf , we said we happy to purchase when talking on phone, if he tells us what to buy - but he said no, transfer money and I will do it

since found out from website and ringing

gate motors , he paid on his credit card and about items cost £1000 less that he said they were 

we should have checked website before we let him order 

for instance our materials , in our work, are from a supplier , that general public doesn’t have access to at our rates etc 


we have savings in cash , drawn from 

company and declared in books , we keep in safe for all house work , we pay all trades and get receipts and put though books , we had driveway , bifolds etc - paid cash but all receipts done and declared - I have profits to bring down 

even, we asked him would we get reciept to put through books - we need to declare it as an expense , so no dodge from our angle , 


bad weather delayed start,

not a problem ,

no recollection of bad weather on the Monday,

that’s why I asked where he was when he was a no show on the Monday , to be told it’s because Parts missing - wasn’t a weather issue 

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As I see it

he makes a claim for 80% of work - he has to prove he did 80 % of work 


I have proof - another company Howard & Davis did installation over 4 days for £600

ultimately failed as parts missing , broken - replaced these parts (have invoices) 


then another company spent one day called wingate - confirmed all wiring correct ,

something still faulty  (this was for free but have evidence of the visit) 


now quote from aj gates and motors specialist company for half a days work to help us (not yet booked in ) 

as motor with manufacturer as broken - always been broken 



so I don’t see how he can say he did 80 % of work nor claim for it -

when he said it’s 20-32 hour estimate and others have done many more days and he did effectively two half days -



parts broken and missing so

couldnt possibly install at all - in fact when he left , just wires poking

out of ground etc and have photos 



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He's only entitled to 80% of the work if you can say that it is a "severable contract". This means that the contract can be easily divided into constituent parts and price of each constituent part is easily determined.
For instance, if the job had been to build a patio at the front and a patio at the back, then this would be a severable contract.

I'm not sure that here it is a severable contract. It looks like a single job to me and so he wouldn't automatically be entitled to claim 80% of the money for 80% of the work – even if that's what he had carried out.

If the contract is not severable then your position is that you are entitled to get independent quotations for completing the work and then eventually calculate exactly what your outlay has been and paid to the original contractor as much money as it takes to put you into a zero position – in other words that the money you have eventually paid out to have the work completed is exactly the same as that which was originally quoted.

I'm still looking through it and trying to understand it. I'm afraid that whatever you say about the cash nature of the job, it is troubling and I think that both of you might draw some criticism from the court which won't be helpful to either of you.

There is a certain amount of he said/she said here. I'm gonna say that if you are in the business then I think it was pretty unhelpful that you didn't put things in writing and that you want a little more careful about how the contract was conducted.

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attached is the off the shelf kit he supplied


note we never got safety sensors, that safety flashing light thing either or gate stops he quoted for etc


comes all ready assembled as described so the installation part is the wiring, connections, set up of parameters, controls etc


none of which he did -


we have a picture just wires poking out near circuit board, dated 25/05/2021 we took for howard & Davis electrical installers, to show them no installation/wiring was done- what circuit looked like

again all other wires just poking out of ground around the gate area


as ultimate proof no installation was done, they (two men ) after wiring and connecting this circuit board and all other parts for the day on 25/05/2021 found it absolutely dead and broken - along with sensors which had snapped parts, so broken , we bought a new circuit and sensors 26/05/2021, with the emergency missing stops for £250 they could do not any installation without it-nobody could 


they returned for a second day (once parts received) and after installing and wiring everything, fault code FC wouldnt shift (took photo for technical help)

turns out photocells (fc fault code) constantly engaged because where  Randle had placed them was 2cm from gate (so reading it as an obstruction) against instruction manual which showed must be 15 cm away-

new guys had to move hardware 15 cm away, leaving damage on gate posts and new rewiring to new area and board. another days work


day three managed to get rid of fault codes, but gates still wouldnt work, namely right motor, again hours to technical

same day 4 , they tried everything to set up and get working- they couldnt do anymore and system just faulty we paid £600


got another company in for the day (free as a favour from friend, evidence of visit retained) called wingate spent whole day- confirmed wired correctly so nothing Howard & Davis had done, confirmed must be broken


went back to manufacturers stating consumer rights, repair or replace-loads of correspondance about system faults

they identifed themselves as broken too


they asked for motor to be returned for repairing 'out of goodwill'



seriously put of pocket here, no gates at all- been a nightmare all because of this man


paid 2265 for broken system

£250 for new circuit board, sensors, emergency stops

£20 for gate stops

£600 for electricians to attempt to install, futile as broken system

metal gate posts damages by incorrect placement of sensors by randle ebay ones 65 each so £130

quote by AJ gates to help fix once get a new motor half a day at 85 plus vat first hour and 65 plus vat all others


Total costs so far £3265 for no working gates and need to spend another £300-400 to try an get them to work



Proteco Kit Advantage Articulated Double Gate Kit _ Gate Motors UK.pdf

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i agree the contract etc needed to be clearer and in writing, unfortunately my husband dealt with it all

i said its wrong to employ someone who charges £100 to quote, and when he asked for materials up front i told my husband not to do it -im out

cant be reputable company who needs money up front or no credit account


we are in another trade, heating and plumbing , never asked for customers for money up front, dont run credit accounts, just comes from our bank until job finished


he said ill take all the blame if it goes wrong! i obviously knew in my bones this was all going to go wrong with this man

i didnt like him at all


im tryin to get my head around the severability element, at the moment im bitter, he took all our money, we spent alot more and no working gates and he has the nerve to ask for more, for work others ultimately did

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are we saying if its not a several contract at £3165

and hes calling the 2265 paid a 'deposit' not materials


then 80% of the work would equate to £2532

so his actual claim would be £267 if he prove he did 80% of the work? which he didnt


although he is claiming 80% of his labour charge on the invoice as if it is a severable contract


how i read it. is that :

The term severable is used to describe a contract that can be divided and apportioned into two or more parts that are not necessarily dependent upon each other. 

but labour is dependent on the provision of materials - so not severable

and consideration was displayed as one amount on the bottom of the invoice so not severable


ie he cant claim 80% on labour element as if it is severable


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Just a quick comment – you have constantly referred to the fact that he applied a fee of £100 for a site visit and a quotation.

What I don't notice anywhere is that apparently the £100 site visit would be deducted from the final price if you decided to go ahead.

I hope you won't think I'm coming down against you – because I'm not – but I think we need a clear and honest picture of what is going on here. I don't know anything about the site visit but certainly the idea that one pays a certain amount of money for time spent and then that sum of money will be credited against a final bill is not unfamiliar to me.
I don't think it will be unfamiliar to anybody and so I don't see it as at all unreasonable.

Even if it wasn't going to be credited against the final bill, you agreed to it and on that basis I don't think you have any position to challenge it. As it is, we now see from the exchange of texts that the site visit fee was far more reasonable than you led us to believe that the outset.

I really am trying to untangle the mess here because both of you are being disingenuous in your presentation of the facts. When this goes to court, it will only make a judge very angry and less patient dealing with you if you have a good case.

I'm trying to understand the final picture here. It has probably been said in the thread but frankly it's becoming so involved, maybe you could stated very succinctly.

He quoted a figure for gates – including materials et cetera – what was that figure?
You have paid a certain amount of money – how much should you pay him?
You have suffered additional losses – how much are they?
The gates are still not working – correct?
How much more money will it take to put the gates into a position that they should have been if the original contract and proceeded satisfactorily.


Have you had any independent assessments or quotations for completing the work?
Have you had any independent assessments of the quality of the work which has been done by KR?

Some or all of these questions may already have been answered in earlier posts – but I'm afraid that the thread has been diverted so often just trying to get you to present information et cetera that I think it's a good idea to get it all stated again.


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In terms of your comments about whether or not it's a severable contract, that's precisely the point I've made that it is not a severable contract


Therefore the correct approach is to ascertain the value of any work which needs doing to complete the contract and then subtract that from any money which is due to him under the contract so that at the end of the day you pay exactly the amount that you promise to pay for the work and you have a gate system which is complete.

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He quoted a figure for gates – including materials et cetera – what was that figure? £3265
You have paid a certain amount of money – how much should you pay him? £2265
You have suffered additional losses – how much are they? £600 electrician £250 parts £130 damaged gates
The gates are still not working – correct?   no, getting a new motor sent and will get specialist co in AJ Gates =more money
How much more money will it take to put the gates into a position that they should have been if the original contract and proceeded satisfactorily. AJ gates are quoting half a day at £102 first hour, and £73 subsequent hours 


Have you had any independent assessments or quotations for completing the work? an estimate quote of half day AJ Gates
Have you had any independent assessments of the quality of the work which has been done by KR? no, he didnt install, nothing to check really, as all parts supplied pre made, Howard & Davis identified broken circuit and sensors, incorrect position of sensors too, AJ gates after video identified incorrect positioning of articulated arms 

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So there are two elements here – as you know.

First of all is to defend the claim and secondly is to put in your counterclaim.

I'm afraid I'm still a bit confused – once the gates are fully installed and commissioned, by how much will you be out of pocket? That is the amount that you will have to counterclaim.

Have you got a formal written assessment of the quality of the work carried out so far, the condition of the gates, an assessment of the work required to complete the project – and a quotation?

It would be better to have two of these.

In terms of the defence, I think it needs to be kept very short. His claim is absolutely rambling and confusing. I don't think it's necessary to respond with a rambling defence. The more you ramble in order to address his rambling, the more you validate these irrelevant parts of his claim.

Your defence is simply that you commissioned a certain amount of work of a certain value. He failed to complete it.

I think all of the blah blah about receipts et cetera are completely unhelpful. I've already pointed out that I don't think a court will be very happy to hear that you have proposed a cash transaction on the basis of receiving some kind of discount. I think the court will be even less pleased to hear that not only did you propose a cash transaction but later on you tried to obtain receipts and VAT receipts for part of the job.
You may want to say that this was a perfectly legitimate request and that they were good accounting or business reasons for doing this but I think a court will be extremely sceptical – and frankly so am I.
The only consolation for you is that he agreed to the cash arrangement so that you are both likely to incur at least the scepticism of the court – although of course according to the exchanges between you, the idea came from you.
However it's not my business to judge the way that you organise your business. I'm simply trying to help you to prepare an effective defence and I'm simply warning you about the impact about emphasising this cash arrangement and then going on to try and get receipts.

The fact that there were receipts or not receipts is irrelevant to the fact that apparently he agreed to do a certain amount of work and then he didn't complete it and left you in a mess.

Frankly the whole thing looks so chaotic, I'm just wondering whether there is in some solution where you can settle the matter is simply on the cost of the materials and then you each go your separate ways.

How much would it cost either way simply to agree on the cost of the materials? And call that one part of a severable contract?

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Problem is I won’t know until AJ gates and motors attend , how much I will be out of pocket , they said it might be half a day, or we have do more work , quote and come back to see if we can get working make parts etc. They can’t attend until end nov/dec 


I would rather AJ gates and motors started again with a proper product , which is why I’ve rejected all the goods and asked for a refund because all repairs failed , going down the avenue against the retailer gate motors under third party rights aswell


I wanted to counter claim for whole refund , as not fit for purpose , and faulty plus damages being losses , incurred by others which was impossible to install, 


can I not do this ? I just want all my money back and throw in bin or return so We can start again 


I agree the defence , now I understand the sever ability etc , can be short and to the point 


all off the shelf materials bought by him  from gate motors , come to about £1300 I can print off and calculate exactly - he has already made a very healthy £1000 on supplying the products so far 

- surely he also has to prove his loss , and currently he hasn’t suffered any ? 



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You won't be able to bring a counterclaim unless you can produce a properly structured assessment of losses or costs or ancillary expenses and you will need to do this by producing at least written assessment et cetera as I have indicated above.
Two of them would be much better.

A court won't entertain a counterclaim simply based on your own speculation as to your possible costs.

I understand very well that your preference would be to write off the entire job including all of the materials that were supplied and for you to recover your outlay for those materials but I think in order to do that you would have to show that you have acquired no value from those materials and once again I think that you would need an expert assessment which explained why the materials were completely wasted and that you would have to start from zero.

You can be certain that the claimant will attempt to say that you have received value and in fact that the items which have been supplied or already installed can still be used.

I'm afraid that because the attempt to arrange this contract as a cash only agreement inevitably invites the scepticism of the court, I think the court may well be open to consider arguments that the items which have already been supplied are of use to you.

If you can get expert confirmation that the supplied materials are now of no use whatsoever, then you will also have to get a quote for uninstalling them and returning them to the claimant.
This means that the whole thing is getting even more complicated.

I do think that your best interests would be to discuss the matter with your new installer and to see what items which have been already supplied can be used to finish the project – and then to try and deal with the claimant in respect of those on the basis that the case would be withdrawn and everybody would walk away.

I think it's time to start abandoning some of this rancour between you because it isn't helping and it won't impress anybody. Don't underestimate the disapproval that will be felt by the court when they get to know about the cash arrangement and this won't be helped by the fact that you then went ahead to try and get receipts.
I understand very well that you say that you simply provided money and that in fact you were the purchaser of the items directly from the retailer – but there is no evidence for that and it would be an unusual arrangement and I think the court might express scepticism about that as well.

I think we have to bear in mind your credibility in this – and I think that it is rather fragile at the moment.

If you came up with a sensible business- like idea about how to put this one to bed and then put it to the claimant and also mention the fact that as he was involved in a cash only transaction, he also might find that he is incurring the displeasure of the court – particularly as he is the claimant, he might feel inclined to try and wrap it all up and bring it to an end.

I think the next thing you must do is to get an expert report as I've already suggested above. You will need to do this anyway. If you don't have an expert report then even if you happen to win your argument that there is a breach of contract, the assessment of how much you win will be impossible for the court to decide. The court will absolutely want expert assessments.

So you need an assessment as to the work which has been carried out so far and the work needed and costs involved to carry out the job.

You need an assessment as to the usability or otherwise of the equipment which has been supplied.

At least that for the moment. I don't think it is possible to do much more until you have this information.

If you can get the information then we can decide what to do.

Obviously I don't know anything about the subject, but I can't imagine that all of the equipment which has been supplied is useless. It could only be useless if you suddenly say that you want an entirely different system of gates – but on that matter, you are bound by your expectation in the contract and you would only be entitled to install a similar system using similar equipment.


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