Money demands from someone who didnt perform the work,consumer rights?

[MOSS 41]

hi,

 

background-

 

wanted electric gates

used checkatrade to find person

husband paid £100 for a quote ( i know its ridiculous , i told husband no one gets paid to quote-first red flag)

electrician said ill do it for cost of materials plus £1000 labour will take four days maybe?

he asked for cost of materials to be transferred so he could order them, told us it was £2300 ( i know 2nd red flag, asking for money upfront)

when material delivered he did a couple hours one morning and one afternoon, placing motors on stone wall, but no electrical work or installation etc.

 

asked for reciepts for materials so we could claim vat back, he wouldnt supply saying i dont do that, you calling me a liar got abusive-just wanted reciepts for books

said dont be silly, he said forget it have the couple  of hours i did for free im not coming back - all in a message

 

first went to part supplier gate motors, to see if they would give us reciept, said cant because of GDPR but did confirm the amount he bought was 

significantly lower than £2300 (actually about £1600) and that he was pushy with them and didnt know what he was doing

gate motors have been great

 

got another firm agred to come in and  to 'install' the motors etc and photocells etc. mistakenly rang old electrician and said where are parts x y z we have paid for ?

this initiated a barrage of abusive texts and emails and threats to come to our house and rip stuff up or send in the 'heavies' to do it for him, id we dont pay his complete labour charge

as he has done 80% of the installation- he did not - no wires done parts missing etc so impossible and only 6 hours out of 4 days attendance.

 

resulting in police getting involved who gave us a number and blue light response to our address if we see him near, as they saw the abusive stuff.

they also rang him - resulting in it all going quite for some time 

 

got new electrical firm in it just wasnt working and 4 days in (£costing us £600) and going back and forth to gate motors

found parts were broken and missing resulting in us buying more parts on top of the £2300 another £250 as what he attached to wall was broken.

 

still not working as parts still missing and gate motors now taking over to complete with their own installer free of charge to get working as they feel sorry for us 

as whole gate set is not fit for purpose and broken.

 

 

now this first electrician is back threatening debt collectors , in 7 days when really as we are rejecting goods he should be giving us a full refund for the £2300 and £250 and consequential losses of others unable to fit because materials all broke £600

 

how do i get rid of this guy?

! hes not entitled to anything, hes unhinged, abusive, police involved etc

 

shall i just send him a letter before action claiming all our money back?

 

 

 

 

 

[BankFodder]

I'm trying to get my head around the story but I understand that you employed someone to install gates and their task was to supply and fit.

You paid various sums in advance. At some point early on they walked off the job and you are out of pocket. Not only that, the suppliers of the equipment which was bought by your installer have not been paid for and though suppliers after you as well.

I still have to read through it and fully understand it – but does that sum it up?

Secondly, what is the name of the installer that you employed? Also what is the name or company of the people who are after you for payment of the parts?

[MOSS 41]

hi apologies if clear as mud

 

we found KR electrcial services ltd on checkatrade as local electrical installer to do gates

he charged us £100 to quote 

he would supply and fit and sent a message saying ill charge parts plus £1000 labour 4 days required, ill by them for you instead of you going on line and buying as what was orginally intended as we wanted CAME system

 

he said he needed money upfront to order the parts £2300- we dont know what they were until delivered, they turned out to be a proteco (italian make) swing arm system.

 

 

he turned up one thusday afternoon, for about 1.5 hours placed some items on wall either side of gate

then turned  up friday morning, as said 'wont stay long its friday afterall!' so did a few hours in morning about 10-1 dug a channel across drive and put cable across.

 

waited for return monday- no show, asked and he said waiting on more parts- we asked what parts and while we are at it can we invoices to claim back for materials we  had paid for in advance- through a hissy fit and said no, are you accusing me or lying

we said no, just want to reclaim vat- he refused said im never coming back how those couple of hours on me.

 

called supplier gate motors who confirmed he massively ripped us off and he didnt pay anywhere near that for our parts

(now if the quote invoice was £xxx and accept it, we would have no claim over markups etc but the agreement was, just the cost as per supplier plus £1000 labour, ill send order  over instead of you ordering it yourself)

 

 

so we had to find new company, had missing parts, so we called him to ask for missing parts we paid for

he then started sending abusive messages asking for 80% of his labour quoted of £1000, as hed done all the work 

to point out- no electrics done or installation at all, just some hardware drilled to wall 5-6 hours of 4 days quoted.

 

turns out new company finds out parts broken and missing we ordered £250 or more parts and had to pay them £600 to install, still wouldnt work , turns out motors also faulty that he attached to wall. so still not got a working system

 

 

yet now he thinks he has he right for £1000 for labour on a system the new electric company actually wired in and installed and will use debt collectors in 7 days, whereas we have the right to reject as unsatisfactory and not fit for purpose, so just want all our money and consequential losses back, as he was the 'retailer' who provided faulty parts.

 

its within 6 months but after 30 days, but he cant repair and replace as inconvenient as we policee involved and blue light response if he comes near our property, after his threats and abuse

 

just want him to go away, hes unhinged-literally

 

 

[BankFodder]

Frankly would be helpful if you could be a little more brief – less narrative. We don't need to hear the whole life story.

Could you tell us the address of this electrical company and if they have a website maybe you can provide a link.

I'm still trying to get my head round it. It would help if you express things a little more succinctly.

In my earlier post I told you that I understood that you are being pursued by the suppliers of the parts. You haven't commented on this. So please tell me is this correct? Or is the only dispute with KR electricals.

Also, what is the name of the person you've been dealing with?

[MOSS 41]

KR electricals were to supply and fit the parts- exact cost (agreed in writing) of parts plus £1000 labour

he made us pay up front for parts "=£2300

 

he walked off 6 hours into 4 day job but is now pursuing us for 80% of labour charge quoted so £800

 

but he didnt do 80% of the installation work another company did 4 days which we had to pay £600 (quoted 3 but ran over)  instead as hed walked off saying have those 5-6 hours for free (in writing) when he wouldnt supply invoices for the parts so we could claim through business.

 

turns out all goods he supplied faulty and broken anyways- so still dont have working system 

 

 

he doesnt have a website

[BankFodder]

Thanks. That's much easier to digest – but you say he is a limited company. He must be using an address. What is his company registration number?

I should say straightaway that I'm afraid that the price that he decided to charge you for the parts is something that you will have to put up with. That was the agreed price – the money that you agree to pay the fact that he has clearly made a big profit from them I'm afraid is something that you signed up for. So there is no basis for any legal complaint on that.

On the other hand, clearly you had a contract to supply and install a certain piece of equipment and he has breach that contract by not supplying it.

Sometimes a contract is "severable" in other words you might reasonably be able to divide the contract into constituent parts and so you might be able to say that a certain part of the contract should be paid for and a certain part of it is outstanding.

In this case, it seems to me to be a non-severable contract. Not only that, you have been deprived of the entire benefit of the contract and so he is in fundamental breach and this allows you to treat the contract is terminated.

This means that you would be entitled to recover all of your money plus any additional expenses incurred removing his work or repairing shoddy work that he has carried out. When eventually calculating the amount that you would be entitled to claim, you would have to deduct any benefit that you have had. So if there are parts that were supplied then you might have to make an allowance for those, but may be at a reasonable price rather than the amount that he charged.

For instance, I believe that you said that he supplied faulty motors. If the motors were repairable then you would be able to claim for the repairs that he might have to be given some credit for the value of the basic material he had supplied.
Please let me know if I haven't explained this clearly.

I think what we need to know now is, better details as to who he is, where he is – details of his company. And also, how much you are out of pocket.

Your losses should be listed in terms of the money that you have paid out to him, any losses incurred in addition in order to undo or to repair his shoddy work.

And then you should examine any benefit you might have had if any of the work he carried out was usable or add some value.

I understand from you that the job is now been finished by some other installer stop is this correct?

[MOSS 41]

no not yet finished , it still doesnt work and and hasnt been fully installed

 

as parts missing from motors according to gate motors (manufacturer) and as such faulty and not repairable, would need a replacement

 

we didnt agree to a mark up price , that was the point the contract written between us was 

we buy the kit we want and he will charge £1000 to install

 

he then said send me the money and ill order to save you time

i agree if he just gave us a whole price to agree to then you accept whatever the mark up is within that while price quoted and accepted , but that was not our agreement he was a labour only price plus actual cost of materials we were meant to order but he took over, thats why we wanted reciepts 

 

anyways 

out of pocket by 

 

£2300 transferred to him (all parts actually come to £1400 according to manufacturer)

£600 to electricians for four days work who had to repeatedly liase with manufacturer with videos to find out why not working- it was a process of elimination so took time

£250 for new circuit board as his provided never worked

£90 for new photocells and he snapped off insides when attached to walls

£130 x 2 metal gate posts ruined with numerous holes, as he placed photocell part 2cm from gate on post but instruction manual said 15cm, this was stopping sensors and openings new electrician moved to correct position on wall.

 

out time for harassment and police involvement probably not claimable.

 

i still have all this equipment that doesnt work- so still not installed and all because what he supplied was faulty, there are so many faulty parts now, it really is becoming a case of gate system is not only not satisfactory but not fit for purpose

 

so when we dont even have working gates because what he supplied is faulty, damaged property from incorrect installation of hardware and another electrician did all the wiring installation is infuriating

 

 

 

 

 

 

ps 

hes not limited its just KR Electrical services 

bridgwater road 

bleadon

 

according to facebook page

[BankFodder]

Okay, on the basis of how you have explained the contract, he was apparently purchasing the parts on your behalf so from that point of view I think it is reasonable to say that the contract was for you to become the purchaser at the sale value – not his markup.

If you have this contract in writing, please could you put it up here in PDF format.

You have now told us that it is not a limited ability company – although you did say that at the outset.

Please can you tell us the name of the person that you have been dealing with. Is it a one-man band? A partnership? Where you dealing with the trader himself or some employees?

Have you got any idea where he lives or have you any idea of any assets that he my own?

Getting a judgement against this person will be very straightforward. The problem is always is a question of enforcement. There is a possibility that you could bring an action and fork out the claim fee, the hearing fee and an execution fee and then find that the warrant can't be executed so that you end up with nothing – not even the return of your claim fee.

So for this reason, when planning a claim against anybody it's important not only to prepare your case but also to do forward planning so that you can identify exactly how you will enforce the judgement.

 

 

Incidentally, how were the parts sourced? Are you able to identify the seller of the parts? For instance, was the circuit board faulty right from the beginning – assuming that it was new – and if so, who supplied it because there may be a claim there.

It might be easier to claim from established retailers and at least reduce the value of the claim that you are going to make against KR electricals

[MOSS 41]

yes im dealing with manufacturer at moment to get replacements etc 

 

i dont care for court claim, although he is a homeowner and yes has assets, hes a one man band, so it is an option

 

agreement was i text message and email, 

 

i just want him to go away, as he has no claim for the amounts he wants £800 for labour nor could he prove  it in court

(we have cameras showing how long he was here) 

plus he took without our knowledge and agreement nearly £1000 more than required to pay for the parts

 

all parts were new, i actually think he knew they were broken (some parts you can visibly see) hence he had no intention of coming back

 

dont forget we have in writing not only in text but also in email, im not coming back im not claiming payment for those 6 hours , you can have them for free- which we replied and accepted

 

so where is his claim in law?

 

 

[BankFodder]

Well it's up to you of course but it seems to me that you are seriously out of pocket and that you should claim the money back.

It seems to me that you may well be nervous of this guy – and frankly you shouldn't be. It seems to me that he is dominating you and that probably encourages him in his approach to you.

If you really do simply wanted to go away then thing to do is to send him an email and tell him that you won't be paying any money and you won't have any further involvement and if he wants to he can sue you.

If he does of course then we will help you.

However, on the basis of what you say it seems to me that a judgement is absolutely straightforward. If you want it to stop hassling you then the best thing to do would be to get a judgement and then if you really don't want to enforce it, let him know that if he carries on that you will send the sheriff's round to his home and they will start removing stuff.

At the moment you don't really have any other leverage other than "leave me alone…". Not very convincing to a bully.

I suggest that you put up a copy of the agreement. Also you should start doing everything by email. Stop using texts, it's not formal enough and it is too intrusive in your personal life. However, save all the text that you have received and the once you have sent and I suggest that you print them out.

It seems to me on the basis of what you have just said, that there is no more advice we can give you until you decide whether you want to take action.

[MOSS 41]

thanks-

 

he sent email couple of weeks ago out of the blue, pay up or going to debt collectors in 30 days and your costs will grow

we ignored him

 

now another email last night- 7 days till debt collectors like a count down- we ignored it

 

its the fact he is saying debt collectors will start in 7 days - hes not entitled to more money and the cheek of it 

just ignore them and if they try and escalate, do a claim or counter claim?

 

through business years ago we employed a debt collection agency cost a few hundred pound and got nothing out of it at all

waste of money as a customer, cant see him paying a few hundred pound to engage them

 

 

ive retained all messages and emails

[BankFodder]

I hope you realise that debt collectors can't be instructed without a court order. This means that he would have to begin a court action against you, makers claim, allow you to make your defence, go to court, get a judgement against you, and then instruct bailiffs or sheriffs.

He doesn't know what he's talking about and it's a load of bluff.

The best thing you could do would be to sue him so that he understands how it's done – and I guarantee you he won't like it.

The second best thing you could do would be to tell him to go and do the other thing.

It sounds as if he's got you into a panic and he is leveraging it. Start a claim. It would be very easy and quite frankly your claim is so slamdunk that it will even be fun and you will acquire some transferable skills so that you can then confidently go on to sue anybody else who gets in your way.
What's not to like?

 

[MOSS 41]

i think he doesnt know what hes doing 

a) sending ranting email with 30 days to pay of debt collectors 

b) sending 7 day countdown to pay or legal action ranting email 

 

 

so neither had PAPLOC or are any viable form of letter of claim, i have no problem dealing with anything sent my way

 

question is start court claim myself now, or 

what for a court claim of £800 and hit him with counter claim of £3450 with all the evidence and watch him squirm

plus ask for adverse costs award in court as a vexatious/dishonest/non proveable claim.

 

[MOSS 41]

update -as i have been dealing with retailer of gate product direct - to get fixed or replaced- as cant go near the madman who threatens us.

 

They have now after months pulled out the -'well he actually paid for it ' card (with our money though!)

 

so really consumer rights dont apply just our terms and conditions- which is send back for repair only  and no reimbursement of anything- but only because we are being nice!

 

where does consumer law stand on this ?

faulty/broken products rejected in writing, to them the retailer and supplier of the product they accept its their product supplied

but as 'we ' didnt hand the money over directly to them we suddenly after all these months dont have rights ?

 

they know we cant go back to the crazy guy who threatens us, and the way i read it you can go to supplier of faulty product if you get no where with the third party as such??

 

any clarity

 

 

Edited September 6, 2021 by MOSS 41

[MOSS 41]

??

[AndyOrch]

Contracts (Rights of Third Parties) Act 1999

WWW.LEGISLATION.GOV.UK

---

An Act to make provision for the enforcement of contractual terms by third parties.

 

[MOSS 41]

thanks i was hoping that applied 

[BankFodder]

I'm sorry but I have only been on the sidelines for the past few weeks and that is probably going to continue for a while.

However I'm trying to have this again and having come back to it and refresh myself I can see that the story is still a mess.

But by and large you entered into a contract with somebody who was trading as KR electrcial services ltd  to install some electric gates.
The deal was that he would install the gates for the cost of the parts plus £1000.
He told you that the parts would cost you £2300 and you paid that money to him.
After a very short time – just a few hours, he walked off the job and the job was left mainly unfinished.
You then had to get somebody else in and that cost you £600 plus also another £250 to replace some parts which did not work.
You are now being threatened by the installer KR electrcial services ltd for payment of about £800 because he says that 80% of the work was completed.

You are unable to deal with the installer because of his aggressive approach and you feel intimidated by him.
Instead you have been dealing with the retailer of the parts who have now withdrawn from the problem because it is getting too complicated.

Your electrical gates don't work.

If there's anything wrong in this summary then please let me know.

I see that my site team colleague has flagged up the Contracts (Rights of Third Parties) Act 1999. If that statute does apply to you then I'm afraid it only applies in respect of the parts which have been supplied and nothing to do with the installation fee or the quality of the installation.
As I understand that there is a question mark over only the circuit board, then if there is any liability from the retailer it would be only in respect of that.
That means that the rest of the problem is really between you and the installer KR electrcial services ltd.

 

I don't know if you are aware but KR electrcial services ltd has been struck off and is no longer in existence so afraid that if your contract was with this company then you no longer have any way of attacking them for a refund of your money.

Frankly it's not clear as to whether your contract was with the limited liability company or simply the installer trading as that name and not limited.

This is very important to know and I don't think we can move forward until you tell us exactly who your contract was with.

Also we have asked you in the past and you haven't responded – what is the name of the person you are dealing with. I think it's important to know that. You say that he has an address but earlier on for some reason other you said that you don't want to sue him but you haven't explained why.

You should understand that if you are prepared to take an action against this person directly – assuming that we can establish that this was not a contract with a limited liability company then we may as well pack up and go home.

Your problems is to be fairly simple but it is stalling and losing its way and if you want to pick this up and send the best chance of getting your money back then I think we need to start dealing with this very closely

[MOSS 41]

Thanks for that -

 

he is Kurtis randle

kr electrical services (not limited ) 

 

we are now down to the fact that the product - specifically the right motor does not work 

 

everything else does ,

so for us to get working gates - we need retailer /supplier of product to repair replace the right motor as a faulty product not fit

for purpose 

 

they are

collecting out of ‘gesture of goodwill’ to repair though after strongly worded pre court action letter - the company gate motors 

 

 

1) currently not pursued KR as he threatens us our persons and damage to property and putting reviews all over our business pages - bullied us basically 

 

2) we just want working gates and a new right Motor will achieve this -

so we can get on with our life - but don’t want to pay for a new motor and it was supplied faulty (amount at other things now rectified) 

 

3) kr gone quiet, but if I get anything like

court demands for his labour that didn’t happen , o will slap him with a counter claim of. A few thousand ! So I dare him to do so 

 

 

that’s where we are at currently -

just want working gates - and never to see that rogue trader again 

 

don’t want to pay for new parts - that were supplied faulty 

 

 

 

[BankFodder]

So I understand that the faulty motor is being collected for a goodwill repair.

If that happens, does that put you in a position where it you feel that you want to let it go and get on with things?

If you decided that you wanted to sue KR electrical then we would help you and if you know the address of the owner's property then it would be very easy matter to win this case and then to enforce the judgement if you wanted.
Don't forget, if you wanted you could simply win the case and then you would not be obliged to enforce the judgement if you didn't want to.

 

[BankFodder]

By the way, you say that you have received threats. Have these threats been made in writing?

[MOSS 41]

- if the faulty motor is repaired - then things could be ok and we can get on with life 

prob is - if it’s not the faulty motor - or it doesn’t work because something else communicating with it is wrong - we are back to a square one - I’m hoping it’s just the motor 

 

- yes all the threats were in writing - send around heavies etc , will destroy you online etc All  passed to police who gave us crime reference and said a blue light response is recorded against our address if we call them for help 

[BankFodder]

Thank you. If you have all those threats in writing and the police are involved, then I don't really expect that he would dare to cause you any further problems if you decided to sue him.

It sounds to me as if you are out of pocket by a substantial amount in addition to all the stress and hassle. Has he actually started putting up negative reviews about your business or is that simply a threat?

If he is carrying out a campaign of harassment against you then we can help you take action on that to protect yourself, your business and any family.

It would be very helpful if you could email me some of the threats that you have received and also any messages from the police to our admin email address. This would be received in complete confidence so you will need to worry – but it would be helpful for us to see it.

[MOSS 41]

Well he went and did it ! No pre action protocol 

 

just county court claim that is written so badly 

 

so here comes my

counter claim 

 

I shall post up and redact his claim now 

[BankFodder]

But no response to my post of September 8 – over a month ago