Israel/Gaza - UK Politicians reponse to current situation

[tobyjugg2]

Yes they have CON

you have just quoted it

 

 

[Conniff]

6 minutes ago, tobyjugg2 said:

Some yes and no questions CON

 

1. Was the holocaust both real and an atrocity against Jews?

2. Is Israeli Bombing of Gaza an atrocity?

3. Is supplying arms to a nation that bombs civilians an atrocity?

 

That is a completely different subject and nothing to do with Labour showing themselves up via McDonnell.

 

Is Hamas firing 4,000 rockets indiscriminately into Israel an atrocity ?

 

PS.  France supplied Exocet missiles to Argentina which were used against British ships, will you condemn that.

Edited May 23, 2021 by Conniff

[tobyjugg2]

2 minutes ago, Conniff said:

That is a completely different subject and nothing to do with Labour showing themselves up via McDonnell.

 

Is McDonnell speaking for labour? Undoubtedly not. Whatever he did say he might be speaking for Corynistas ... and might not

Who does he say he is speaking for?

 

So CON. Was the holocaust real, and an atrocity?

Its a simple question.

 

[barns66]

YOU DO NOT KNOW THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN THEM.END OF STORY

[Conniff]

1 minute ago, barns66 said:

YOU DO NOT KNOW THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN THEM.END OF STORY

Between who ?

[barns66]

7 minutes ago, Conniff said:

Between who ?

BETWEEN ANTI SEMITISM AND ANTI-ZIONISM,END OF STORY 

[Conniff]

I do know the difference but it has absolutely nothing to do with my original post which, if you look, is about a Labour MP shouting anti-semitic and racist comments

and inciting the crowd to violence.

You are the only one to mention Zionism and it has nothing to do with my post.

[honeybee13]

7 minutes ago, barns66 said:

BETWEEN ANTI SEMITISM AND ANTI-ZIONISM,END OF STORY 

 

No need to shout, barns66.   We're listening.

[barns66]

Sorry for using capitals 

[honeybee13]

We've all done it, no problem barns66.

[tobyjugg2]

3 hours ago, Conniff said:

You really are weird, what the hell has Hitler got to do with your beloved Labour making an Anti-semitic hatred speech and Inciting Violence.

 

Quote

As you haven't said a single word against what he said it can only be taken that you agree with him and are also anit-semitic.

 

I have VERY clearly stated my opposition to and condemnation of anti-Semitism by anyone

- as barns quite correctly points out - anti-zionist as a different matter.

 

So read your own post CON, and tell us when are you going to condemn anti-semitism and holocaust denial?

Edited May 23, 2021 by tobyjugg2

[Conniff]

I need to post this again as there are obviously short memories.

 

A sitting British Labour MP

LABOUR'S John McDonnell has urged protesters in London at a pro-Palestinian march

to effectively ignore the Israeli ceasefire in Gaza and continue their campaign against

"the Israeli apartheid state".

How disgusting is this.

He should be arrested and charged with Anti-semitic hatred and Incitement to Violence.

If proof was ever needed of anti-semitism in the Labour Party, this is it, there can be no denial.

 

I see no mention of Hitler or WW" or Zionist, no mention or suggestion for or against any nation, all I see is a statement and my suggestion he should be arrested for it.

[tobyjugg2]

3 hours ago, tobyjugg2 said:

 

 

I have VERY clearly stated my opposition to and condemnation of anti-Semitism by anyone

- as barns quite correctly points out - anti-zionist as a different matter.

 

So read your own post CON, and tell us when are you going to condemn anti-semitism and holocaust denial?

 

Still waiting Con.

Surely you aren't going to leave yourself defined as an anti-Semitic holocaust denier .. by your own definitions?

 

Condemn atrocities by (the State of) Israel or Palestine all you wish and encourage peaceful resistance

- as others can and perhaps sometimes should more than they do

- which perhaps appears to be more what the Corbynista has actually done - and NOT on behalf of the Labour Party as you falsely claim

 

But despite demanding it of others, including me, 

you have NOT yet simply and clearly defined yourself as NOT being an anti-Semitic holocaust denier

 

So by your own stance - does that not declare you as precisely that?

 

 

Perhaps while we endure the looooong wait for you to DEMONSTRATE you aren't an anti-Semitic holocaust denier,

perhaps inform yourself:

 

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/dec/11/boris-johnsons-record-of-bigotry-antisemitism-and-far-right-politics-must-not-be-forgotten

Boris Johnson has invoked some of the oldest and most pernicious antisemitic stereotypes in a book he wrote when he was a Conservative shadow minister. He describes “Jewish oligarchs” who run the media, and fiddle the figures to fix elections in their favour.

- (clearly Freudian - TJ comment)

 

although this might represent your apparent widespread and deep seated prejudice better

https://www.varsity.co.uk/news/19816

"When questioned about Farage’s anti-semitic remark and the interviewer’s lack of intervention, the Cambridge University Jewish Society (CUJS) provided the following statement to Varsity: “There is a discernible and important distinction between critiquing Mr Soros’ politics and applying historically Antisemitic tropes to Mr Soros to incite fear and stoke up animosity. When, for example, Mr Farage described Mr Soros as ‘in many ways the biggest danger to the entire western world’ he did not respect this distinction.”"

 

So CON, ready to condemn anti-Semitic holocaust deniers yet, as you have demanded of others?

 

 

 

Edited May 23, 2021 by tobyjugg2

[honeybee13]

More Jewish people in the US are turning against what Israel is doing in Gaza.

 

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2021/may/22/jewish-americans-israel-palestine-arielle-angel

[unclebulgaria67]

Don't rule out the possibility that some of the actions going on in different parts of the world are related to the world economic crisis  caused by the pandemic.

 

I should imagine that some ecnomies are extremely fragile and supply chains for essentials that people need may have broken down.

 

During the pandemic lockdowns, factories in China and other places have produced goods at reduced levels.

 

Not direcly linking the pandemic as a factor in Israel/Gaza conflict, but wonder whether it may have caused issues. 

[tobyjugg2]

This particular instance appears to have been most related to Israel evicting Palestinians from their homes in the occupied zone and those homes being bulldozed to make way for more illegal Israeli settlements.

 

I really dont know the answer, but it seems to me that the only end to this approach (steady illegal invasion expansion into Palestine and killing their children to 'punish' resistance) is eventually a nuke (or more likely something possibly worse) being smuggled into and being set off within Israel.

You should never leave people believing they have nothing to lose, and it seems both sides are very close to that.

[labrat]

At the risk of upsetting coniff

 

Why is anything anti Israel automatically anti semitic? 

 

In this case we have a country that has deliberately targeted apartment buildings and a news centre 

 

That has illegally (if they like it or not) bulldozed houses and built other settlements over them

 

That to be honest treats a good section of the population as second class citizens which pretty much is the dictionary definition of apartheid

 

I'm fairly certain you can be anti Israel without being anti semitic even if Israel itself says otherwise 

[honeybee13]

I agree, labrat, some of us said that yesterday as well. barns66 also pointed out that antisemitic and anti-Zionist aren't the same thing.

[honeybee13]

John McDonnell asked his supporters to continur their campaign against the Israeli apartheid state.

 

This is the UN's report on the situation in Gaza. The damage, casualties and deaths seem to be much greater than in Israel.

 

https://news.un.org/en/story/2021/05/1092172

 

I haven't seen anything lately about how many people have been vaccinated in Gaza after Israel's successful programme the other side of the border.

[honeybee13]

Answering my own question about vaccines, in February Medecins Sans Frontieres said that Israelis were 60 times more likely to be vaccinated against Covid than people in Gaza.

 

https://www.msf.org/stark-inequality-covid-19-vaccination-between-israel-and-palestine

 

According to Our World in Data. as at yesterday Israel had vaccinated about 60% of its population. Palestine isn't on the graph and I haven't found a percentage for it.

 

https://ourworldindata.org/covid-vaccinations

[tobyjugg2]

I think some are mistakenly crediting CON with reacting against something other than his own (and perhaps other extreme right wingers) 'mistaken' claims about mcDonuts 'anti Israeli actions' statements - so seemingly for purposes other than supporting Israel (rightly or wrongly).

A bit sad really when there is so much real stuff mcDonut and the Corbynistas could be flagged with.

 

Demonstrably - CON cant even let a simple clear unequivocal condemnation of anti-Semitism or holocaust denial pass his lips.

 

As he hasn't corrected his 'mistakes' yet, or even simply stated his abhorrence and condemnation of anti-Semitism and holocaust denial,

surely the lead assumption can only be that CONs' rants were not 'mistakes' but deliberate.

 

 

Regarding vaccines to gaza - Israel has apparently allowed a VERY limited number to pass the blockade is the last I read - more than happy to be corrected if that has changed since the Israeli bombing of an news services building holding a number of foreign journalists from a number of international news services..

 

although the Israelis apparently do give some an hours notice before the bombs fall - although there are some allegations that in some cases those fleeing the buildings after the notice are then attacked

 

 

[honeybee13]

I put some limited information about vaccines in the post above yours, TJ.

 

ETA: I've figured out how to work the graph thingy. Israel has vaccinated 62.85% of the population as at 22nd May.

 

Palestine is on 5.48%

 

https://ourworldindata.org/covid-vaccinations

[tobyjugg2]

CNNs report

https://edition.cnn.com/2021/05/20/middleeast/gaza-covid-conflict-intl/index.html

 

Note the damage to the Gaza Covid test center despite Israel having smart bombs

note that Israel claims it was bombing a nearby building, not the test center which was damaged - not destroyed

[honeybee13]

I hope this link to the New York Times works. An opinion piece entitled 'The Myth of Coexistence in Israel'.

 

https://www.nytimes.com/2021/05/25/opinion/israel-palestinian-citizens-racism-discrimination.html

[tobyjugg2]

Its an impossible situation when 2 sides both believe they are fighting for their homeland against an interloper who wants them and their children dead or thrown out into the desert

 

I wasnt there but I understand some of the issues surrounding Britains agreements with Jewish 'actors which resulted in the State of Israel, and its possible that WWII would have been lost without those agreements .. but Britain again betrayed the Arabs in doing it, and actually betrayed Jews too.

and the implementation ... for gods sake

No wonder the Arab world continues to look upon us as the worst of crusaders.

 

Also consider American and Australian 'First peoples' among many others

What would each of us think if someone evicted us from our homes and communities and threw us out with no rights?

I'd pick up a shovel - and I wouldn't be digging with it until much much later.