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@Livewell_today - Faulty Disability Scooter from a month after receiving it.


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Just after some advise please.

 

in September 2020 i purchased a new scooter from Livewell Today https://www.livewelltoday.co.uk/, the scooter arrived on the 17th September and was delivered to the pavement outside our house,

 

i followed all instructions on setting up and using the scooter and was charging it the same way as I did with my old scooters.

 

in October the scooter failed and refused to go anywhere, i phoned the company and they sent me another set of batteries,  an engineer was booked for 3 weeks later to fit said batteries , he came out inspected and said it was all fine, scooter

 

lasted another month, i phoned them again and this time i was sent instructions on how to use the scooter and charge the batteries (run the scooter round the block then put it on charge for 12-16 hours then repeat for another 12 times) did this and scooter failed again,

 

didn't use it then until march this year did a 1 mile trip on the scooter and the thing died again, phoned them up and told them that the scooter had failed and all that was happening was the lights on the dash was flashing and then going out, they sent me a new head unit and also a set of batteries and arranged for an engineer to visit,

 

4 weeks later i get the engineer visit he replaced both parts and the scooter failed to start and told me that the scooter needs to go back and be sorted and he even noted on his report that i wasn't happy and i needed this thing sorting.

 

that was on Wednesday 28th April, i left it until the following Tuesday to get in touch with them, at which point they said the scooter needed to be picked up and sent to Bristol to be repaired and they would arrange collection, good i thought, but not the case, the courier they use does not attended the Isle of Wight and they would have to send me a box to put the scooter in and then store until they could arrange a courier to collect.

 

at which point i stated that i would need to know when the collection of the scooter would be and that i would like to know how me a disabled person would get a scooter in the box (5ft x 3ft x 3ft) and then store it safely when i had nowhere to store the scooter, because of the size of the box it isnt as easy as storing in house then handing to courier

 

.i did say i could possible get both the box and scooter (separately)  to our church where i could store it but i would need to know for definite when it would be collected, i then suggested they gave me a suitable refund and that i keep everything and get the scooter sorted out myself,

 

the lady i spoke to said she would speak to her manager and would get back to me later that day, well a week has passed and i phoned them today to see what was happening, the lady i needed to speak to was on the phone so i left a message for her to call me back. waited all day today and no phone call,

 

i was just checking my email and i see an email from Livewell that was sent 10 minutes after i called this at luchtime, 

and here it is

 

Quote

 

Upon further review of the engineers report by my manager, which has been provided by Homeserve, we are unable to accept your item scooter back for repairs
 
The cause of the fault has been put down as invalid claim due to the electrical failure from water ingestion. The report also refers to rust on the batteries and therefore corroded, again which is a contributing factor in the scooter not being operational. Therefore the condition of the scooter, water ingestion and rusty batteries are not a manufacturing fault but user damage.
 
We would suggest you see if a local mobility engineer can attend to try and repair it for you. However due to cost of multiple parts needed due to rust/water and the cost of the parts, this may add up to more than the scooter is worth

 

 

 
any help and advice on this would be greatly appreciated 
many thanks 
Lets
 
 
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  • dx100uk changed the title to Livewell Today - Faulty Disability Scooter from a month after receiving it.

Have you seen a copy of the report the email refers to?

 

I assume you would deny all knowledge of any water damage while in your possession?

 

Did you notice any evidence of water damage when you were replacing the batteries yourself?

 

I'd be inclined to get some photographs or other evidence of the lack of water damage.  Even if there is water damage, who is to say it when it was caused.  In their warehouse?  During transit to you?

 

See what others more knowledgeable than me say.

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Hi LGIS,

 

You really should have rejected this scooter last year and demanded a refund.

 

However, due to the history of failures, you still have a good case to get your money back by rejecting the scooter, using court action if necessary.

 

How much did you pay for the scooter ?

 

How did you pay for it - cash, cheque, debit or credit card, etc ?

 

Have you asked for a refund since the failures started ?

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Livewell Today Ltd
Northlight Studios Suite 6 Wellington Mills
Quebec Street
Elland
West Yorkshire
HX5 9AS

 

Company Number: 06477777

 

Company Status: Active

 

Company Type: Private Limited COmpany

 

Incorporated: 18th January 2008

 

Previous Company Names: SHOPFOR Limited, 19th January 2008 - 25th March 2016

 

Director: Shaun Peter Casey, (appointed 18th January 2008)

 

Companies House Link: https://find-and-update.company-information.service.gov.uk/company/06477777

 

 

Was the Mobility Scooter you purchased Brand New or a Refurbished one?

 

Was the Purchase of the Mobility Scooter all via Online/Internet?

 

What was the Model/Type of Mobility Scooter you purchased?

 

I would send this Company a Subject Access Request (SAR) asking for 'ALL DATA' that simple phrase covers whatever format they hold that data in whether it's email, written, phone calls etc. They then have 30 Calender days to respond but that time limit only starts once they have acknowledged reciept of your SAR and don't as for further identification which may extend the time limit.

(as well as putting 'ALL DATA' you can also ask for specific data i.e. this Homeserve engineer report but always ensure to put that simple phrase)

 

https://www.gov.uk/online-and-distance-selling-for-businesses/online-selling

 

 

 

How to Upload Documents/Images on CAG - **INSTRUCTIONS CLICK HERE**

FORUM RULES - Please ensure to read these before posting **FORUM RULES CLICK HERE**

I cannot give any advice by PM - If you provide a link to your Thread then I will be happy to offer advice there.

I advise to the best of my ability, but I am not a qualified professional, benefits lawyer nor Welfare Rights Adviser.

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I agree with my site team colleague @slick132 that the scooter should have been rejected at the outset and I'm going to add, maybe a bit brutally, that you've been here since 2009, got a fairly high post count so you are well aware of us and so I have no idea why you left it to now to come to us when things are much more complicated than they need have been.
Have you got any pictures of the rusted areas? Have you any pictures of those areas showing that in fact there is no rust? Have you got any copies of any of the reports?

Also, I don't understand this business that they use a courier who can't get to the Isle of Wight. They managed to deliver it they didn't they? What's the value of this mobility scooter? Is LiveWell Today the only supplier of these?

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  • BankFodder changed the title to @Livewell_today - Faulty Disability Scooter from a month after receiving it.

Hi Manxman

No not seen any copies of the report at all, only told what was going in the report along with recommendation the scooter gets taken back.

no knowledge of any water damage, scooter was never used in the wet and always stored under a porched area.

no notice of any water damage at all not without getting right down to the back of the connecttons where the battery pack plugs in, 

 

Hi Slick

the scooter was £539 including free delivery 

i paid by visa debit card 

I did on the phone last week, told them that when they get the scooter back i dont want it back and want a full refund.

 

Hi BF 

since my last visit here, i have been quite poorly both with mental health, meningitis, as well as pain ....only just remembered bout Consumactiongroup when i checked back on my email.

just gave them chance to sort it.

the engineer showed me a pic of the rust within the shaft, when i inspected the controller the he replaced i pointed out the lack of seal where they key goes in therefore even if the scooter did get wet water would have been able to enter that point 

 

i will be doing a formal letter of rejection and also a DSAR today and will also take pics of how the scooter is stored 

 

 https://www.livewelltoday.co.uk/powered-mobility-independence/mobility-scooters/portable-mobility-scooters/livewell-jaunt-plus-mobility-scooter/c-23/c-95/p-745

 

Thank you all for advice, will let you know the outcome of the email i will send rejecting the scooter 

 

cheers 

Lets

 

 

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I think it would be an idea if you would hang on until we have thought about it and advised you. You waited all this time without doing anything – now you come to us, you may as well wait and see what we had to suggest.

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When you refer to "rust within the shaft" – what exactly do you mean? Could this actually have caused the problem?

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Hi BF

i have been contacting them since January trying to get the scooter sorted,

 

the rust in the shaft is what they are referring too is what the engineer said was there,

 

i haven't seen any pictures of it though, the scooter has not been in the rain or used in the rain,

 

when the engineer changed the head unit i looked at the old one and the unit has not been sealed properly,

 

i will try and have a look at the battery connection points which cant get wet with the battery unit in place and i have always had the charger connected to the battery unit in place on the scooter 

 

cheers 

 

 

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Firstly, can you please notice that I've restructured your post above in order to make it readable. When people post a solid block of text, it becomes very difficult to deal with especially when people are using a small screen such as a telephone.

I've introduced spacing but couldn't do much about the punctuation.

I still don't really understand what the fault is or where the rust is – or how the rust can apparently have affected the electrical connection. However, you have said that you looked at the old head unit – I don't know what that is – and found it wasn't sealed properly.
Presumably there is a new one now and you can see that has been sealed properly. Is that correct? Any chance of a picture?

it will help a great deal to be able to understand exactly what we're talking about in order to give you the best advice not only as the route to take that as to your chances of success – which are probably excellent

 

By the way, what are you doing in place of your disability scooter now? Are you housebound or have you sourced an alternative?

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Posted (edited)

Hi BF

Today I took a look at the battery connections and cannot see any rust as suggested, the head unit is the part where the key goes and the buttons and speed control sit, 

I also took this off today and there is a bit of surface rust but there is no sign of anything going down the shaft (steering handle etc) there is no sign of any water going down the cable as also suggested.

 

Luckily i have my big old scooter to get me around, the smaller one was supposed to say in the car for shopping and the big battered one for walking the dog

 

I have attached all the pics taken today in pdf form 

the last pic shows where the scooter is stored if not in the car 

 

Many thanks for your help and advice 

 

cheers 

Lets

P.s many thanks for editing the original post 

 

scooter pics, forgot to attach them to post above

scooter pics.pdf

Edited by letsgetitsorted
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I see the report was provided by Homeserve.

 

I'd be interested to know if the "engineer" was even qualified to make such a report. I would assume the report is biased in favour of the company paying for it.

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Hi Slick 

I was thinking of sending them the pictures i have taken to argue the points and also to formally reject the scooter and demand a full refund...whats your thoughts.

 

cheers

lets 

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I would recommend that you check with us before you send anything off - especially pictures.

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Good morning 

should I question the report, send my pictures, do a DSAR  or just write a short letter stating i am seeking advice and that the issue isnt over 

 

thank you 

cheers

Lets

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You haven't addressed my point about the seal. You said that it hadn't been sealed properly. This suggests to me that there should have been a proper seal in place and it either wasn't fitted properly or it was missing or it was damaged.
It also suggests to me that you have some reference which would show how the seal should be properly fitted.

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hi BF 

There should be some sort of seal under the control panel, sealing the buttons, key switch and speed control, however on the one that was is pictured there is just  a blob of heatgun glue and not enough any proper sealing, as you will be able to see from the pics there is just surface rust on the bit where the handle bars attach to the main column 

 

cheers

lets

 

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Quote

Dear Sir/Mdm


Letter of Claim

As you know, I purchased a mobility scooter from you on XXX date. Within X number of weeks it had already started to exhibit problems which appear to be electrical in nature.

Instead of rejecting the scooter out of hand, I contacted you and attempted to cooperate with you by following your instructions and implementing remedial measures including implementing battery charging regimes and also receiving your engineer on at two occasions in order to carry out further remedial work.

None of these measures have had the effect of producing a permanent solution and at best, the scooter has worked for a short while and then completely failed once again.

You eventually agreed to have the scooter collected from my home in the Isle of Wight and sent me a large box for the purpose of packaging it ready for your collection.

As you know, I am disabled – that is the reason why I need the mobility scooter in the first place – and I was unable to package it and I informed you of this.

I informed you of this difficulty and to my surprise I had nothing further until I was eventually obliged to telephone you. I telephoned twice and each time I was informed that I would receive a telephone call from your manager and despite the fact that I waited in all day, this did not happen.

 

When I eventually did speak to somebody, I was told that in fact you would not be able to arrange collection because your courier did not service the Isle of Wight area. Apart from the fact that this was a complete reversal of what you had originally promised me, I notice that you had no difficulty in having the mobility scooter delivered to me on the Isle of Wight when you were in the business of selling it to me.
It is only now that there are problems with it that coincidently you are apparently unable to find a courier who will visit to collect it.

About a week later with no communication from you, I I suddenly received an email informing me that you had decided that the entire problem had been caused by some ingress of doubt which had apparently caused rust.

This this was completely new information and had never been suggested at all by either of the two engineers who visited me. Furthermore, this is not my first mobility scooter and I have experience of them and this was well stored undercover and not in a damp environment.



Additionally, because of all the problems experienced with it, the mobility scooter has scarcely been used since it arrived in October 2020.

 

It is clear that the mobility scooter is not of satisfactory quality and furthermore I have been deprived of fundamentally the whole benefit of the contract to the extent that your breach of contract amounts to a fundamental breach.

I'm writing to you that I'm accepting that the contract has been fundamentally undermined and that I have no further confidence in you.

I require reimbursement in full of the purchase price and additionally that you should make immediate arrangements to collect the mobility scooter from me.

If you do not reimburse me and collect the scooter within 14 days of this letter and I shall begin County Court proceedings against you and without any further notice.

In addition, if you have not collected the mobility scooter by the end of 14 days, I shall apply a daily storage charge of £3 a day until such time that the scooter is collected by you and I shall include a claim for the storage charge in my County Court claim for your breach of contract.


 

 

See if you are happy with this and you are prepared to take the action that I've described above. Make sure that you understand the steps in being a small claim in the County Court. There is lots of information on this website. It is straightforward but it is worth knowing the steps in advance.

If you are happy to take this action then please check the letter of action that I've drafted for you above. Make sure that it is accurate. If there is anything to add then please add the necessary words or sentences in red so I can see what you are doing. Let me know if there's anything wrong. At the end of the day this will form the basis of your legal action against them and it needs to be accurate.

Maybe you can check the timeline that I have set out – because I am not completely sure of my ground.

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Hi All 

Last week I received an unexpected call from Livewell, she was returning my call from the week before, I explained to her what the situation was and didn't agree explaining where the scooter was kept and how was used when it was running. 

told her i had taken the head of the scooter and looked at the wiring and took pictures , she was adamant that they where standing by the report, i asked if i could have a copy of the report , the report is attached. 

I told her I will send the pictures I had taken to her ( just about to do) with me saying that she said that she will reopen the case, so will see what comes of that. 

before i send in the letter before claim kindly put together by BF (thank you )

cheers Lets 

 

scooter.pdf

 

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You said in post #9 above that the scooter was not left, or used, in rain. Even if it was used in rain, it should be built well enough to keep water out of critical areas.

 

The report from Homeserve is really not impressive in it's use of language (water ingestion instead of water ingress) or in it's failure to actually identify the actual fault causing the scooter to not work.

 

I think you should send the Letter Before Claim without further delay but see what @BankFodder suggests.

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Hi Slick 

many thanks for you response I will be digesting the report more closely ( not easy with a knee the size of a rugby ball) actually got my full phone records to identify all the times I have phoned them...

hi BF

i will monitor closely and thank you again 

 

many thanks both

cheers

lets 

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Are you not able to get your own independent inspection this scooter? I suppose it's a very particular item but surely there must be somebody – may be in the motorcycle trade you can have a look at it and talk about the seal and the amount of rust and the effect that rust might have. It would certainly be very helpful and you may have to do this at some point.



 

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  • 3 weeks later...

Hi BF 

many thanks for your help and information, i haven't been able to get an independent inspection as they want around £100 to do it, which we don't have spare.

here is my adapted letter of claim i also sent the photos i had taken showing no rust and also where the scooter was kept 

i was told i would get a call back after their manager looked at the case again(which she reopened) and still no response.

took me a while to get this sorted as i managed to sustained a bad knee injury 

many thanks 

Lets

 

Quote

 

Dear Sir/Mdm


Letter of Claim

As you know, I purchased the Livewell Jaunt Plus mobility scooter from you on 9th September 2020. This scooter was delivered on 15th September 2020, However after a few weeks of use the battery pack failed to hold a charge, I contacted Livewell on 09 Oct 20 at 14:45:47hrs to notify Livewell of the fault.

Instead of rejecting the scooter out of hand, I contacted Livewell to give a chance for the scooter to be repaired/or replaced, as such a new battery pack was sent out and received on the following Tuesday, a phone call was received from Homeserve to arrange for the battery pack too be switched over and the scooter to be checked for faults. However, the Homeserve technician did not actually attend to look at the scooter until the first week of November 2020.

Upon the engineers visit, he changed and checked the battery pack as well as the charger and said all was well and left, I was unaware of any issues that he may or may not have found as he said it was ok.

 

The scooter was Ok to use for a short period ,bearing in mind weather and time of year the scooter was not used much however I had to contact Livewell on 31st January 2021 when the scooter failed again, I was then told about a charging cycle that the scooter needed to do in order to maintain the battery sustainability, I was also sent an email on 31st January 201 with the details of this, however I did explain to the technician at Livewell that how the scooter needed to be charged was the same way that I was charging it and also the exact same way as I was charging my bigger scooter.

The suggestion of conditioning the batteries was to take the scooter around the block then put on charge for between 12-16hrs then run again and repeat for around 15 times.

 

With the battery pack failing I was unable to use the scooter at all through February, as the scooter could not go anywhere. I could also not use the scooter in march either and when I did attempt to use it the LED displayed on and then went off, I then contacted Livewell again and the technician I spoke to arranged for a new head unit to be sent out as well as a new battery pack, this arrangement took place on 31st march 21, arrangements for the Homeserve technician to fit the new parts and battery pack was done with a phone call being received from Homeserve the following day, the technician arrived on 26th April 21 to undertake this work, however after replacing the battery pack and the head control unit, the technician failed to get the scooter going.

 

when I attempted to cooperate with Livewell by following your instructions and implementing remedial measures including implementing battery charging regimes and also receiving the Homeserve engineer on two occasions in order to carry out further remedial work.

None of these measures have had the effect of producing a permanent solution and at best, the scooter has worked for a short while and then completely failed once again.

You eventually agreed to have the scooter collected from my home in the Isle of Wight and this was to be sent to you engineering Department for further work, for this purpose I was sent a large box to pack the scooter and batteries in for the purpose of making the scooter ready for your collection.

As you know, I am disabled – that is the reason why I need the mobility scooter in the first place – and I was unable to package as well as store the packed scooter while I wait for it to be collected, I also informed Livewell of the fact that I also had steps going onto the pavement where the scooter would be collected from.

 

I did received the Box and this measures roughly 6ft x 3ft x 3ft not something I would be able to move out of the house and store outside as I would have nowhere to store it.

 


I informed you of this difficulty and to my surprise I had nothing further until I was eventually obliged to telephone you. I telephoned twice and each time I was informed that I would receive a telephone call from your manager and despite the fact that I waited in all day, this did not happen.

 

When I eventually did speak to somebody, I was told that in fact you would not be able to arrange collection because your courier did not service the Isle of Wight area. Apart from the fact that this was a complete reversal of what you had originally promised me, I notice that you had no difficulty in having the mobility scooter delivered to me on the Isle of Wight when you were in the business of selling it to me.
It is only now that there are problems with it that coincidently you are apparently unable to find a courier who will visit to collect it.

About a week later with no communication from you, I I suddenly received an email informing me that you had decided that the entire problem had been caused by some ingress of water  which had apparently caused rust.

This this was completely new information and had never been suggested at all by the engineer  who visited me. Furthermore, this is not my first mobility scooter and I have experience of them and this was well stored undercover and not in a damp environment.



Additionally, because of all the problems experienced with it, the mobility scooter has scarcely been used since it arrived in September 2020.

 

It is clear that the mobility scooter is not of satisfactory quality and furthermore I have been deprived of fundamentally the whole benefit of the contract to the extent that your breach of contract amounts to a fundamental breach.

I'm writing to you that I'm accepting that the contract has been fundamentally undermined and that I have no further confidence in either the scooter or Livewell.

I require reimbursement in full of the purchase price and additionally that you should make immediate arrangements to collect the mobility scooter from me.

If you do not reimburse me and collect the scooter within 14 days of this letter and I shall begin County Court proceedings against you and without any further notice.

In addition, if you have not collected the mobility scooter by the end of 14 days, I shall apply a daily storage charge of £3 a day for the scooter and £3 for the Box to pack it in, until such time that the scooter is collected by you and I shall include a claim for the storage charge in my County Court claim for your breach of contract.

 

 

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I just noticed something. You say that after the second battery they provided you with some special instructions on recycling it.

Had they provided you with any information relating to this when you bought it? Is there anything displayed on the website which brings your attention to this?
We may have another string to our bow

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Also, do I gather that you have sent this letter of claim now? If so when did you send it?

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