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CEL ANPR PCN - 12 minute stop (no parking) at Butterfly Walk Car Park, Morrisons ***Cancelled by CEL***


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Posted (edited)

Hi all

Grateful for your help on this one- I see this company and location has come up before.
 

Please answer the following questions.

 

1 Date of the infringement

22 April 2021
 

 

2 Date on the NTK [this must have been received within 14 days from the 'offence' date]

27 April 2021
 

[scan up BOTH SIDES as ONE PDF- follow the upload guide]

please do not put JPG Picture files into your post

 

3 Date received

30 April 2021
 

4 Does the NTK mention schedule 4 of The Protections of Freedoms Act 2012? [Y/N?]

Yes
 

5 Is there any photographic evidence of the event?

Yes
 

6 Have you appealed? [Y/N?] post up your appeal]

Yes.

did not confirm driver.  Stated that driver paused in carpark for 12 minutes and did not leave vehicle.  Had lost a valuable item,  searched the vehicle for the valuable item, then left to retrace steps.

signs indicated no charge so left. 

posted on local forum re lost item with time and date,  screen grab included with identifying details removed. 

 

also contacted Morrisons who say the car park is nothing to do with them. 
 

Have you had a response? [Y/N?] post it up

No
 

7 Who is the parking company?

Civil Enforcement Ltd

 

8. Where exactly [carpark name and town]

Butterfly walk car park, London SE5 8RW

 

operates under British Parking Association
 

 

 

Scan 30 Apr 2021 (1).pdf

Edited by 2021Tootles
Clarifying operating under BPA
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Hello, welcome to CAG.

 

Thank you for the information, people should be along to advise later. I've seen at least one other thread about this carpark, I'll post a link in a minute.

 

ETA: link added to a thread from last year. If you use the white Search box, top right in the red strip at the top of this page, you can look for others.

 

 

Best, HB

Illegitimi non carborundum

 

 

 

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  • dx100uk changed the title to CEL ANPR PCN - 12 minute stop (no parking) at Butterfly Walk Car Park, Morrisons

there is a minimum of 10 mins grace there is no maximum stated.

shame you appealed as you've now most probably identified yourself as the driver and lost your protection under POFA2012

best idea now is to wait and see if they issue a Letter of claim

 

dx

 

please don't hit Quote...just type we know what we said earlier..

DCA's view debtors as suckers, marks and mugs

NO DCA has ANY legal powers whatsoever on ANY debt no matter what it's Type

and they

are NOT and can NEVER  be BAILIFFS. even if a debt has been to court..

If everyone stopped blindly paying DCA's Tomorrow, their industry would collapse overnight... 

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Thanks dx100uk. I was very careful not to identify myself as the driver in the response.  Although it would be clear that I know who the driver is. Does that mean that I've still lost my protection?

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well you never tell them that 

need your appeal and their reply as PDF's please

please don't hit Quote...just type we know what we said earlier..

DCA's view debtors as suckers, marks and mugs

NO DCA has ANY legal powers whatsoever on ANY debt no matter what it's Type

and they

are NOT and can NEVER  be BAILIFFS. even if a debt has been to court..

If everyone stopped blindly paying DCA's Tomorrow, their industry would collapse overnight... 

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Share on other sites

Haven't received a reply yet.  Will post as soon as I get it.

 

  I summarised the appeal above and was careful to not identify the driver (hadn't found your advice yet) but it was an online form so won't get the exact details until they refuse the appeal

 

Really appreciate your help

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Your PCN appears to be PoFA compliant so you will be liable as the keeper if the driver is not revealed. But the keeper can only be liable for the amount on the signage should it go to Court. 

 

The signage is often the stumbling block when the PCN is PoFA compliant so if you can get photos that we can read of the entrance sign, the signage on the ticket machine or nearby and at least one of the signs within the carpark. If there are other signs that are different from the sign you took in the carpark, could you please post them up also.

 

CEL appears not to have planning permission to erect their signs but it might be worth checking that they still do not have it. 

 

The fact that you did not get out of your car means that were not parked and the PCN wording is strange. Had they just said failure to pay that would have been understandable. But payment not made in accordance with T&Cs seems to infer that a payment was made but not quite right but I am nit picking there.

 

Interestingly BPA issued a press release several years ago where they said that they would expect their members to allow something closer to 20 minutes over time before pursuing. I think I can dig it out if needed.

 

I have found the article from BPA but it doesn't state 20 minutes but at a minimum 10  minutes https://www.britishparking.co.uk/News/good-car-parking-practice-includes-grace-periods

 

In addition the Government is bringing out new regs to try and contain these thieving grasping crooks in the car parking industry https://www.gov.uk/government/news/crackdown-on-private-car-parking-firms-will-eliminate-unfair-fines , they are suggesting a 5 minute cooling off period and 10 minute grace period. So both above examples are above your 12 minutes time so you would think that they wouldn't  progress with you.

 

Of course you would be wrong but you it should give you peace of mind. 

 

Still need the signage and planning permission.

You can never have too many irons in the fires when dealing with crooks.

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ensure you get a good perspective photo of the view from entering as a driver and all the small type on the signs and a layout of where each sign is.

please don't hit Quote...just type we know what we said earlier..

DCA's view debtors as suckers, marks and mugs

NO DCA has ANY legal powers whatsoever on ANY debt no matter what it's Type

and they

are NOT and can NEVER  be BAILIFFS. even if a debt has been to court..

If everyone stopped blindly paying DCA's Tomorrow, their industry would collapse overnight... 

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Share on other sites

Will do.  Thank you. 

 

Confirmed the last planning application for signage in the car park was in 2009, for two signs facing out into the main road.  

 

Confirmed there is no planning permission for the cel signage in the car park.  

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:whoo:

please don't hit Quote...just type we know what we said earlier..

DCA's view debtors as suckers, marks and mugs

NO DCA has ANY legal powers whatsoever on ANY debt no matter what it's Type

and they

are NOT and can NEVER  be BAILIFFS. even if a debt has been to court..

If everyone stopped blindly paying DCA's Tomorrow, their industry would collapse overnight... 

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Share on other sites

Well. I don't think anyone expected this.   I was gearing up for months and months of appeals and a court hearing.....!!

 

My appeal direct to the company was successful.  I stated that the driver arrived,  realised a valuable item had been lost,  searched the vehicle,  and left.  Asked for CCTV imagery to be released to prove that the driver didn't park.  And sent a screenshot of a post on a local forum giving the same time and date and description of the lost item. 

 

I complained to Morrisons who said not their car park,  nothing to do with them,  and refused to take any action. 

 

Was in the process of filling out the DVLA V888 form to get info on what company had requested keeper info (two emails finally got them to point me to the form).

 

See attached cancellation letter.  It appears there may be an occasional actual human working at these places.  Who knew?!!

 

Thanks everyone for your advice and support. 

Scan 06 May 2021.pdf

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most probably because until this point, no human had ever been involved (the process to date would have been automated with just an office junior putting 'things' in envelopes at a minimum wage) .

 

someone now has actually looked at the timings, they realised they would have a very hard time in court being as there is a minimum 10 mins grace period with no stated maximum.

 

it's telling to note this last few days that we have seen CEL runaway from demanding payment on numerous speculative invoices, even several at the court stage. something is a foot that we don't yet know regarding CEL and the authorities.

 

dx

 

 

 

  • Like 1

please don't hit Quote...just type we know what we said earlier..

DCA's view debtors as suckers, marks and mugs

NO DCA has ANY legal powers whatsoever on ANY debt no matter what it's Type

and they

are NOT and can NEVER  be BAILIFFS. even if a debt has been to court..

If everyone stopped blindly paying DCA's Tomorrow, their industry would collapse overnight... 

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Share on other sites
  • FTMDave changed the title to CEL ANPR PCN - 12 minute stop (no parking) at Butterfly Walk Car Park, Morrisons ***Cancelled by CEL***

Well done on your victory!  👏

 

CEL are one of the most dishonest of the PPCs - and Good God, it is a crowded field - so as dx says, something must be going on for them to have this current flash of decency.

 

The important thing is you won though  😃

 

 

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