Lowther street car park WON at POPLA?? Now DR Plus....

[Bazooka Boo]

Well blow me if I didn't go and get myself a parking invoice off these lovely chaps.

 

I literally just sent an appeal, and in under ten minutes got this very childish arrogant response back.

 

Oh I do love a good fight, easily won of course because its council owned and they allow 3 hours free parking for BB holders.

 

 

[Bazooka Boo]

On 29/04/2021 at 15:04, dx100uk said:

had to hide your uploads they are unredacted.

 

dx

 

Sorry DX, was all excited for a moment!

 

Just spoken to the Council and it appears that there are two car parks with the same name, so the one I parked in is private, damn and blast!

 

 

 

NTK+Appeal rejection.pdf

[lookinforinfo]

You of all people should know not to appeal.  The PoFA looks compliant so that leaves the signage and the contract to look at and also trespass so a long way to go yet.

[Bazooka Boo]

I know I know, I just couldn't help myself!

 

Been back today to get photos which I shall post up.

 

I'm a little bit irritated by the LA, when you put in Lowther street car park it pops up on the LA's website with a photograph of this particular car park, and it clearly states on the website that three hours are free for BB holders.

 

What it doesn't say is that the photograph they use is of a privately owned and run car park, not sure if that is an avenue I should pursue with the LA, along with finding if they have PP for the signs and cameras?

 

OK here goes, the photos.....if more are needed then I'm going back there tomorrow so I can grab them then.

 

 

 

pictures.pdf

[lookinforinfo]

The sign at the entrance has no T&Cs at all so it is just an invitation to treat. There doesn't appear to be any mention of ANPR. 

[Bazooka Boo]

At the bottom of their ''very large, BPA approved signs'' in small writing it refers to the use of ANPR cameras, but like they say, it is ''the responsibility of the motorist to ensure that they seek out, read and comply with the terms and conditions of parking that are in place'' 

 

Now the issue I have is that unless you walk up to the ticket machine you won't see a sign with the tariff on, or telling you that BB holders have to pay in fact there were only two that I could find in the whole car park.

 

On the flip side, the council run car park which uses the same name, that I thought I was parking in, has a big board with the tariffs on before you drive into the car park, I'm guessing this is how it should be??

[FTMDave]

They're supposed to have prominent signage at the entrance certainly.

[dx100uk]

no  thats correct

the only place they have to show the tariff is at the payment portal.

 

[Bazooka Boo]

Not only is the signage lacking at the entrance, it's also misleading, they state that it is a P&D car park, when in actual fact it's anything but.

 

You can park and not pay until you leave, and even then you can pay via an app so no ticket need be displayed.

 

Some more photos of the CP and signage

Lowther Street CP Carlisle

 

Having parked here some 16 times previously, and funding them some £97.for the privilege I'm loathed to stump up another £100 because of pretty poor signage and confusion on my part.....

[Bazooka Boo]

Also the signage fails to say what the ANPR is used for, they satisfy the first part of the BPA rules by stating on their signs (albeit in tiny tiny writing) that the CP is monitored by ANPR, but they fail to say what the data they capture is used for.

 

I am also finding it difficult to find the full T&C's they refer to on the signage at the pay point?

 

Might have to pop back and have another trawl of the CP to try and find the sign, if it exists!

[lookinforinfo]

You can also pay by phone. As you didn't pay, you didn't therefore accept their T&Cs either at the pay point or elsewhere in the car park.

 

Here is an article on Invations to Treat which might be helpful to many as a sticky...

https://www.lawteacher.net/free-law-essays/contract-law/offers-and-invitation-to-treat-contract-law-essay.php

[Bazooka Boo]

Much obliged LFI, all this research is very exciting!!

 

Just on the council planning portal and my heart sank when this CP popped up as having PP for signs and ANPR cameras..........

 

If their name was Smart parking they'd be fine, but they're not, they're called Initial Parking and I don't see they have permission for any of their signs, also smart parking have a brilliant photo of what the T&C's should look like.

Smart parking T&C's

[Bazooka Boo]

So I've trespassed essentially?

 

The signage at the entrance doesn't meet the BPA guidelines and is pretty poor at best, there are no T&C's anywhere, they fail to state what the ANPR will be used for (or what the data is used for).

 

And as I failed to pay, I didn't enter into any contract with them.

 

Does that just about sum it up?

 

[lookinforinfo]

By and large yes. First the signage at the entrance did not contain their T&Cs and so no contract offered there. Then At the ticket machine their T&Cs were there but as you did not pay, you failed to accept their T&Cs. So you were trespassing.

 

Incidentally under PoFA the NTK should include the relevant land that the car was parked on. Lowther street I would have thought was insufficient to identify where you parked as there must be many Lowther streets in the UK and I assume that the whole of Lowther street is not relevant land even id the car park is. And they didn't specify car park in the location of where your car wa parked. Surely the town and post code must be included. The absence of those last two details should render the NTK as invalid.

 

8(1)A notice which is to be relied on as a notice to keeper for the purposes of paragraph 6(1)(a) is given in accordance with this paragraph if the following requirements are met.

(2)The notice must—

(a)specify the vehicle, the relevant land on which it was parked and the period of parking to which the notice relates;

 

The relevant word there is "Must".

Failure to comply with 6 [1] ]a] or [b] 

[Bazooka Boo]

Correct LFI.

 

There are two car parks called Lowther street on that road. hence my confusion that I could use a BB for free parking.

 

I shall wait until nearer the time and bat it over to POPLA to look at.

 

Now I'm looking forward to getting some silly missives from their toothless DCA.

 

Certainly won't be giving these clowns any more of my hard earned, I have already started parking elsewhere.

Edited May 4, 2021 by Bazooka Boo
Fat fingers.

[brassnecked]

The Important Notice is also misleading as it gives no allowance for the Grace Period, they could in their tiny mind on  strength of that  invoice someone who wentit, no spaces available and left after 5 minutes without parking at all

[FTMDave]

Regarding POPLA - when you appealed to the fleecers, did you out yourself as the driver?

 

 

[Bazooka Boo]

No I referred to myself as the registered keeper, hence why their immature response to reject my ''appeal'' was addressed to Mr Registered Keeper.

 

I went back again today to bottom out their signage, even the pay points don't have the T&C's on, the T&C's are on a post at the back of the car park posted well above head height, a deliberate attempt to circumnavigate the BPA's guidelines and of course to frustrate all appeals by drivers.

 

I've taken some more photos of the signage dotted about the CP.

 

I'll post them up later.

[Bazooka Boo]

OK, so I've actually read one of DX's posts about how to upload PDF's and can now stop smashing the keyboard...

 

Here are the ''relevant'' photos from yesterday. the first photo is taken from where I was parked, and the little white dot at the back in the distance is the T&C's for this CP.

 

The third photo is the signage at the exit.

 

All in all a very poor attempt at following the BPA's guidelines on signage, good luck at making this invoice stick Ben and Lisa Johnson.....tut tut.

Lowther St T&C's signage.compressed.pdf

[FTMDave]

17 hours ago, Bazooka Boo said:

No I referred to myself as the registered keeper, hence why their immature response to reject my ''appeal'' was addressed to Mr Registered Keeper.

Ah, ha, the penny has finally dropped at this end!

 

Looking back at ancient threads, it seems the forum once advised to appeal to POPLA, but I think POPLA's remit was changed and the contract to run it was given to other people, thus it's gone down the IAS road of always siding with the PPCs.  However, the main reason we say not to appeal to POPLA is that in 99% of cases motorists out themselves as the driver - something you've avoided!

 

So go down that route if you want, or else do what we generally advise, to ignore their tripe unless you get a Letter Before Action/Letter Before Claim.

 

Well done on all the photos, their signage is absolutely carp and would be a good stick to beat them with if they did have the gonads to try court.

 

 

 

 

[lookinforinfo]

I am sorry but I cannot read the signs. I know they are pretty high up the poles making it difficult to read even if you were in the car park especially as the font size is so small. But it does help your case on dubious signage.

[brassnecked]

Yes the signage is pants and would be good to use against them   would have been good to be able to read the T & Cs though

[Bazooka Boo]

I can always attempt to get a clearer photo of their T&C's.

 

But they are up pretty high, akin to the days of cowboy clamping companies hiding their signs 15 feet on the sides of buildings!

 

I'll see what I can do.

 

Do they still have to pay £27 for the POPLA appeal does anyone know?

[FTMDave]

22 hours ago, Bazooka Boo said:

Do they still have to pay £27 for the POPLA appeal does anyone know?

Not sure.

 

Last time it was discussed on here it was still £27, but that's going back a few years now.

[Bazooka Boo]

Here's a photo of their T&C's.

 

The carp signage is what I will add in my appeal to POPLA, along with their failure to clearly state which Lowther street car park in the UK they're referring too.

 

T&Cs Lowther Street CP.compressed.pdf

Edited May 6, 2021 by Bazooka Boo