DWP Letter Saying I Owe £2078 - Tax Credits Overpayment From 2013 - UC Overpayment from 2021

[mystic_bertie]

this is regarding a tax credit claim 2012 - 2013 (jan - oct).

 

 

I had a partner live with me for a 9 months (we separated in oct/2013) .

We made a joint claim.

 

 

She is Hungarian and her daughter moved in to,

she was 16 and in full time education.

I had my own daughter of 12 (single dad).

 

 

Because of the process in claiming for a foreign child in education, it took months for the claim to start being paid out.

We were paid a huge amount in back payment and a healthy weekly amount going forward.

I could not believe my luck,

i checked all the income figures on the form, everything seemed in order, children's details correct etc.

 

The reason i was paid so much is because my previous years income was really poor (jsa and a low paid job).

That current year of the claim, i had started a very well paid job earning 37k a year.

The people at the HMRC had used last years income for my income, thats why i got so much money.

 

I strongly believe in telling them of any changes as i never wanted to be overpaid,

i told them of every change in details and any income changes right away,

i thought if i did everything right this way,

i would never have any overpayments.

 

I now know there is a bit that saying on my award form,

saying if there is £5000 difference between last years and the current years income,

the current years income should be used.

This is the bit i never knew about or noticed.

 

 

This is the bit HMRC should have had the brains to use my current years income.

 

questions

---------------

 

Is the fact i told them of every change a reason not to pay back this money?

 

Is it possible to have the amount reduced because i told them of every change over the phone as soon as each change happened?

 

Or does it not matter, do me and my ex still need to pay all this money back. We are both working but not exactly well paid and cant afford to pay any of this back, i realise i might not have an option.

 

Im going to send off a SAR, i know all the details are correct, but its best to send off for it just incase.

[i hate bailiffs]

If you owe the money you should pay it back we are not about debt avoidance

 

A SAR will be a good idea but they only work on the information that they are provided

Make arrangements and pay it back

[mystic_bertie]

thanks for the reply.

 

Im not trying to avoid it illegally. I dont see why i or anyone should pay this back when they are responsible for the overpayment. I never wanted a single penny more than i was entitled too.

[dx100uk]

did you record your calls?

 

 

dx

[mystic_bertie]

no i did not

[antone]

If you supplied them with all the relevant information they would have needed to process your claim and calculate your entitlement correctly, and you informed them promptly of any changes in your circumstances, but they still overpaid you then it may be possible to have the overpayment decision overturned on the basis of "official error". The first stage would be to appeal the decision, which you can do up to 30 days from the date you were first notified of the overpayment. I think this deadline can be extended if you had a good reason for not appealing sooner, up to an absolute maximum of 13 months.

 

Now I stress that it's only really worth doing this if you are sure that the conditions I mentioned above are true: basically, that you are sure the error is theirs and not yours. I note this comment from your OP:

 

I now know there is a bit that saying on my award form,

saying if there is £5000 difference between last years and the current years income,

the current years income should be used.

This is the bit i never knew about or noticed.

That sounds like you gave them information relating to the wrong tax year. If I've read that correctly, I'd say an appeal probably would not succeed. However, I'm not an expert on Tax Credits so am not at all familiar with the claim forms and the information they request from you.

[blondebubbles]

If the overpayment is for 2012/13, it is highly unlikely you are still within the time limit for disputing or appealing the decision.

 

A dispute needs to be made within 3 months of the decision. An appeal within 30days. This can be extended in some cases to 13months.

 

It is likely you received the decision between April 2013 and August 2013. Check your final award for 2012/13 for the date of issue.

 

The original tax credit claim form only asks for your previous years income. So when you made your initial claim, that's what it would have been based on.

 

You would then have received a tax credit award notice showing what they used to calculate your claim. On this award it tells you to call if anything has changed or is incorrect, including income.

 

When did you receive your initial award notice?

Then when did you notify them of the income of £37,000?

If notified promptly, did you receive a new award notice confirming the change had been updated? If not did you contact them again?

[mystic_bertie]

 

I think im outwith the time to appeal the decision but i will phone tomorrow and see what they say. Im certain the error is theirs. Everything i said is true regarding informing them of every change and informing them right away.

 

I cant exactly remember how all the events unfolded, my previous years income probably was used on the original claim form, when i started the well paid job we were still awaiting things being processed. When i started the new job i told them right away of the new income etc. I did not get notified as the original claim took a few months to process, because my ex partners daughter was foreign. Ill phone them tomorrow and see if i can appeal but its likely too late for that.

[dx100uk]

poss an sar is in order to prove what they did/do know?

 

 

dx

[blondebubbles]

Would only be beneficial if still in time for dispute/appeal

[mystic_bertie]

Hi guys, just another wee update. I called the tax credits helpline and i was surprised to hear i still have time left to appeal against the overpayment. They are sending me out the relevant forms. I will fill these out and return them asap. I will update you guys when anything happens either way. Thanks for the advice so far. I would have thought i was too late to appeal.

[dx100uk]

so def sar time then!!

[mystic_bertie]

yeah ill apply for the SAR too. Should i wait until i receive the SAR before filling out the appeal form or is it more just for proof i need it?

[dx100uk]

IMHO it would be better to await the free sar to show [or not] them where the evidence is you owe or don't the relevant sum.

 

 

dx

[antone]

It would be best to have as much information as possible when sending an appeal but there is a time limit, usually 30 days from the date of the notice informing you of the decision. Don't let this time limit expire while waiting for the SAR response - you can always submit further information relating to your appeal at a later date.

[blondebubbles]

From what you explained before, it sounds like you should be disputing, not appealing.

 

I would also have to disagree with the advice from dx100uk. If you wait until you get a response from the SAR you will most likely end up out of time.

[mystic_bertie]

Update, as expected i got a letter dated 1st Oct, it says that the over-payment is correct and i will have to pay it back.

 

Last week i finally got all the paperwork and cds from my SAR. I managed to have a look at them today. There is hundreds of a4 sheets of screen shots etc. There is no award letters for some reason. My original claim form is there and a renewal form is there. When these were filled out i used the previous years low earnings as it does not ask for current years earnings. As i said my current years earnings were very high.

 

There is 3 audio calls missing from the cds, the tracks are named by the original file names and as you can see by my images, there seems to be ones ending in - 04, - 05, - 10 missing. There is a document there with all my calls logged and operators notes of the call. The 3 missing calls are listed here with notes. One dated just after i started my high paid job, the notes say i updated my employment details, this was obviously the call when i told them about my high earnings i would get that year.

 

cd2 showing the file ending -1

 

cd1 showing files ending -2 to -14 ( note -4 -5 -10 missing)

 

Here is the notes off the call log, i made 2 calls on the same day, dont ask my why, one right after the other. The first call has noted my total income as 19400. I probably told them 39,400 at the time. However there is no recording of this call despite there being a call log. The call was made a few days after i started my job.

 

03/04/2013 NR19 Claimant confirmed new employment details. System updated customer or partner started work 01-04-2013 CY (current year) income change updated on NTC, total HH (household) income 19400

 

03/04/2013 PQ01 Customer does not have their award notice (not yet received), payment schedule showing. Customer is advised how to find their payment details when they receive their award notice and to keep for future ref.

 

So what can i do, the evidence i need is missing from the cds?

 

I listened to a long call i made to end my joint claim on the Oct of that year, my partner had moved out. Its during that phone call i find out from the adviser that they have been using my previous years income all this time and he has no note of me changing my income. This is when i realise i have been grossly overpaid.

 

Whats my next step folks?

[blondebubbles]

It depends on what you already said on your dispute and what their response was.

[mystic_bertie]

There was not much room to provide a lot of information on the form. I said I had done everything that i was supposed to, i notified them right away of any changes regarding my employment and income, even though i had done this, they still used my previous years low income instead of my current years high income.

[blondebubbles]

What was the reason for them rejecting your dispute?

[mystic_bertie]

The letter says

 

I have considered the information you have provided and checked our records, and decided that your overpayment is correct and you will have to pay the money back.

 

Your overpayment occurred because you had an increase in your household income which reduced your entitlement.

 

We can only consider 'writing off' an overpayment if we have not met our responsibilities as set out in our code of practice 26 'what happens if we have paid you too much tax credits'. This sets out the responsibilities of both HMRC and our customers. In your case, i have found we met all of our responsibilities.

[blondebubbles]

So if you still disagree you need to comment on how they have failed to meet their responsibilities and how you have met yours.

 

You want to focus on how you reported the income but they appear to have used the wrong figure. The only issue with this is that you get sent an awards notice after a change is made and if anything on the notice is wrong you are expected to report that to them so they put the responsibility back on you.

 

You could explain that you made a SAR and that the call vital to your dispute was not provided.

 

As for copies of awards notices, the helpline can issue these.

 

Another thing to note though is that if you have an increase in income mid year you can end up overpayment even if you tell them straightaway due to the way tax credits is calculated.

[mystic_bertie]

Many thanks for your very helpful reply. I now have a copy of all the award notices. When i made the vital call they have used the wrong information. I did not catch this at the time. I will now send them a letter and ill follow your advice and i will hope for the best. Ill report back with any progress. Many thanks

 

Robert

 

Can i ask a big favour, would it be possible for you to give this a quick look over and see what you think, im never passed my English so forgive any punctuation errors. Thanks.

 

I refer to your letter dated 21/11/2015 regarding an overpayment and that I have to pay this back.

 

I am writing to you to request a review of this decision. I received the SAR I applied for, I have all the paperwork relating to this claim period, I was also supplied with recordings of ‘some’ of the phone calls I made and also the award notices.

 

On 03/04/2013 I called to inform HMRC about the changes to my employment and income, I was now earning an estimated approx £38,000 and my partner approx £10,000. I don’t know the figure I gave over the phone because the vital phone call recording is missing from the cds I received, there are 3 calls in total missing from the cds. There is a paper record of all the calls I made and the evidence is there to prove I made the phone call on that day. Below is the notes made by HMRC against this call.

 

[ 03/04/2013 NR19 Claimant confirmed new employment details. System updated customer or partner started work 01-04-2013 CY income change updated on NTC, total HH income 19400 ]

 

Whoever it was I spoke to on that day has entered the wrong earnings for that year. I did not give them a total income of £19400 that is totally wrong and the advisor has not done their job correctly and has not met your responsibilities.

 

I have met my responsibilities and notified HMRC right away of the changes, the paper phone record proves this. Your adviser has failed to do their job properly, they have not used the details I gave them over the phone. Sadly the vital recording is missing to prove this. I request that this overpayment be ‘written off’.

[blondebubbles]

I refer to your letter dated 21/11/2015 regarding an overpaymenticon and that I have to pay this back.

 

(This date cannot be correct.)

 

I am writing to request a review of this decision. I made a Subject Access Request on DD/MM/YY and I have received all of the paperwork and award notices relating to this claim period. I was also supplied with recordings of some of the phone calls I made however calls dated X Y Z have not been provided.

 

On 03/04/2013 I called to inform HMRC about the changes to my employment and income. I estimated earnings as £38,000 for myself and £10,000 for my partner.

 

I don’t know the figure I gave over the phone because the vital call recording is missing from the cds I received. There is a paper record of all the calls I made and the evidence is there to prove I made the phone call on that day. Below is the notes made by HMRC against this call.

 

(You can't say here that you don't know what figure you provided. Your argument is that you gave the correct figures and this was not acted upon. You later say the adviser didn't do their job properly but if you don't know what figures you gave them then you cannot state this. Instead say:

 

"The vital phone call that would confirm this was not provided as part of my Subject Access Request. However the paper record of all calls made does confirm I made this phone call as per the note below".

 

[ 03/04/2013 NR19 Claimant confirmed new employment details. System updated customer or partner started work 01-04-2013 CY income change updated on NTC, total HH income 19400 ]

 

The adviser I spoke to that day appears to have entered the wrong earnings for that year. I did not give them a total income of £19400 and I am unsure how this figure was arrived at.

 

I have met my responsibilities by notifiying HMRC right away of the changes, the paper phone record proves this. Your department has failed to meet their responsibilities by not updating this information accordingly and as such I request that this overpayment be written off.

 

(You will need to mention why you did not meet your responsibilities in checking your award notice after it was sent to you)

 

Just another thing to check, you said in your OP that the overpayment relates to 2012/13 tax year and that the relevant call was on 03/04/13 and that your change of job was only on 01/04/13.

 

Can you confirm that all these dates are correct as if you only changed job 4 days before the end of the year that couldn't caused such an increase in income.

[mystic_bertie]

It was my mistake i got mixed up when i made the original post, the overpayment relates to the period 2013/14. When we started living together it was the period 2012/13.

 

What you mentioned about my start date was well spotted, i never realized it was a few days before the end of previous year. It looks like they have amended the income for 2012/13 as you say only slightly to £9000.

 

Although i have informed them of my new high income the award notices for 2013/14, received on 18/07/13 say they are using an estimate provided by me of £9000. They have not used the current year figure i gave them over the phone. Even if i had spotted this mistake it was 3 1/2 months too late.