Legal, Will and Probate Enquiries

[Yorky55]

help please. not sure if this is right place to post. any advice ;

Elderly father in early 80s, doesnt fully understand, cant reason or think ar acknowlege in relation to financial and household affairs. after weeks in hospital due to stroke, now 2 weeks in care home for assesment etc. I need to be able to sort his DWP, bills, repairs at his home etc, what do I do.

POA may be to late if he has to agrre to one before starting, Deputy may be, but its seems a long and tricky process, need something done noe especially within 4 weeks.

[honeybee13]

Hi. I've moved your thread to the General Legal subforum.

 

I'm sorry to hear about your father. Have the care home been able to offer any advice?

 

The people I found very helpful when my mother had dementia problems were the local AgeUK, who will have seen this kind of issue before. You could ring them in the morning and see if they have any suggestions for you. I expect people here will be along over the course of the day too.

 

Could you tell us what part of the UK you're in please?

 

HB

[honeybee13]

You may have seen this already but here's information from the government.  I believe it doesn't apply to Scotland.

 

As you say, it's a lengthy process and sadly I don't know how to speed it up. Maybe others here will and I would certainly speak to AgeUK, as I said.

 

https://www.gov.uk/become-deputy

 

HB

[Yorky55]

hy, im northamptonshire, family are in Hartlepool area up North. I spoke to Age uk, need to ring tommorow to speak to specialist. Deputyship, well Ive exhausted this option, made loads of notes, its not financially possible, it really is hundreds and hundreds if not into thousands to, apply, hearing, asses, anual fees its just  stupid. 

 

Im still waiting for the named person who will be dads allocated community social worker. Im still waiting for assesment? 4 weeks left then weekly costs of over £1000 a week will have to be paid by dad.

 

Im visiting him next week. 30 min appointment. over 4 hrs drive there and 4 hrs drive back in 1 day. This is to look at state of brother, bungalow and more important seed dad, in case anything happens and I wont have seen him.

[honeybee13]

A social worker could be a big help, my mother's was.

 

Has your dad been formally assessed as not having capacity to sign a LPA?

 

HB

[Yorky55]

thats what Im waiting for, hes been in home 2 weeks, a SW was contacting the home  as they dont visit, no reply from them yet. waiting to find out who allocated SW is. he ha sonly 4 weeks left, then after that will have to pay full costs, it will eat into the money/inheritence, but also have to have SW visit and asses home and brother before they think of sending him home

forgot to ask, did you get POA or LPA then, with the SW helping

[honeybee13]

My mother had already signed EPAs as they used to be called, for health and finances so I didn't have the problem that you do. There were other problems though and I had a lot of help from the social worker and from AgeUK.

 

Keep asking the professionals, see what they come up with.

 

HB

[anmarj]

In terms of DWP,  you can be made appointee, for benefit purposes so that you can deal with that side of things going forward, at present the form is filled over the phone. But it is not recognised by banks etc, i have heard that some do but generally its not for any other purpose. You can then change address/change where money is paid to. 

[Good Sister]

Hello Yorky55,

 

Firstly I am so sorry for your situation, it is a lot to cope to with and it is very overwhelming. Sadly, having been through the same with my dad since late 2019 and having no Power of Attorney in place, this is what I can offer in terms of advice (warning: long post alert):

 

Firstly, whatever happens with having to cover care fees, his bills etc... that will all have to wait. That will be the standard response you will need to give to anyone who asks for money - "I'm sorry, my father is in hospital, I am applying to be his attorney/deputy, I don't have access to his funds."

 

This will definitely not be the first time that the care home or your father's social workers have heard it and they should try to find as many ways to be as accommodating as possible. As for bills, if there's direct debits in place for utilities and such, these should continue to go out of his bank as normal. IF you wanted to pay off some accuring debts or sort out urgent repairs on his home, you should be able to claim that money back once you are approved as attorney/deputy.

 

Your social worker may mention something called NHS Continuing Healthcare, where the NHS will cover some or all of his care funds depending on his needs. It is perhaps unlikely that they will cover everything, but they may pay for a few weeks complete care whilst assessments are taking place and they may then pay towards part of his care if it's determined that he needs full time nursing care.

 

Next, I notice that your father has an assessment to see whether he has the mental capacity to do a POA. As you quite rightly point out, it is quicker cheaper and easier to do a POA, but if it is decided that he can't complete it, then you will need to go down the Court of Protection route. Of course, it is more expensive, but I'll break it down for you so you can see who should pay what:

 

The initial £365 application fee - that will need to come from yourself (or whoever is applying to be deputy) when you send the initial application.

Hearing costs - may not be applicable. Only if someone comes out of the woodwork and disputes you becoming a deputy will there be a proper hearing. Otherwise it is conducted without you being present.

£320 annual supervision fee - this will come out of your father's money, it will be pro-rotaed in the first year, and is not usually payable until late March/early April.

£100 new deputy fee - this will come out of your father's money at the point shortly you are appointed deputy.

Security bond fee - the total amount is dependant on the size of your father's estate, but is payable over 5 years. As a guide, I'm paying just £50 a year (just over £250 total) so my father's estate is insured to the tune of £75k.

 

Of course, if you get solicitors involved, then yes, it will cost significantly more, but you can do the paperwork yourself and deal with all matters yourself. More stressful doing it yourself?: yes. Worth it?: yes.

 

If you apply to the COP, you will note that it's £365 to apply for financial/property deputy and £365 for health/welfare deputy. I would suggest that if you, your family, your dad's carers are all on the same page regarding his health needs, not to apply for this particular court order. COP only really tend to award those where there are disputes over someone's care and there is an urgent care need, so that could be wasted money - focus on the finances so you can get your father's affairs in best order you can.

 

Now, you can apply to the COP to fast-track a specific request e.g. to pay care fees. However I find that this can get messy and the Court tend to ignore this if you also want to make a general application to take over your father's finances.

 

A straight-forward case where there's no objections from your family for you to be the deputy takes about 3-4 months. Now, even during these Covid times, I applied in April 2020 and was approved in August 2020, so the COP are still working. My order did come with the string attached that I would need to get a separate order to sell his home, which I'm still waiting on but otherwise I've got his day-to-day finances in order.

 

For now, please use this time to perhaps gather your father's financial info - bank statements, pension provider(s), utility firms, local council details etc - to get an idea of what your father's estate is worth and who he deals with. I don't know about POA applications, but on a COP application, you will need to declare as much knowledge of your father's financial background as you can, plus you will need to know who to send out your shiny attorney/deputyship order to once you've gotten that far.

 

Hopefully, that provides if not some comfort to you, then at least some help on what might happen. I wish you and your father best of luck, I will try to keep an eye on this thread though.

 

Please also try to look after youself as well.

 

GS

x

 

 

[Yorky55]

HY wont be on line for few days, cant have internet up north. Ive doen some researching.  In dads will the property is left in trust to brother. also if dad is less than 52 errkd in care home its classed as temp. yes he will have to pay full costs. But as his son got to live in home, then am I right in saying I do not need to put the home as part of dads caotal for financial assesment. this willbe done 17 may so need to get facts right. hope to get POA weekend if not game over.

 

 

[Good Sister]

Hello again Yorky55,

 

Thanks for the update.

 

Regarding whether your brother can stay in the home, please take a look at the following link and check whether any of these circumstances apply to your brother:

 

https://www.ageuk.org.uk/information-advice/care/paying-for-care/paying-for-a-care-home/do-i-have-to-sell-my-home-to-pay-for-care/  

 

It all sounds messy and complicated, but we will do our best to help you with advice and steps to take once you are ready/able to update us.

 

Take care in the meantime.

 

GS

x

[Yorky55]

hy Im now back, problem is understanding all the COP application forms and getting the written confirmation of dads capacity of not understanding

[honeybee13]

I think you said that your father was going to be assessed. Has he been seen by a psychiatrist?

 

Otherwise, the social worker might be able to help.

 

HB

[stu007]

Hi

 

If your father was moved from hospital to a care home for assessment you point out 2 weeks but generally these assessments are over a 4 week period. 

 

Have you been notified of the outcome of this assessment by the Social Worker as this is important as the Outcome will stated whether your Father has Capacity/Some Capacity/No Capacity and they will refer to relevant areas i.e. need a further psychiatrist assessment or sectioned under Adults with Incapacity etc.You really need to find out what the outcome of the assessment carried out at the Care Home has concluded.

 

My own Dad has went through what you are going through the difference is I had Power oif Attorney in place but my Dad after being Sectioned in Hospital under AWI, moved to Care Home for assessment informed has full capacity, fighting Care Home Assessment/Social Work as disagree with assessment as my Dad has lost the plot so to speak.

 

Social Work panic my Dad is moved Care Homes to what I want not what they decided and to be assessed as new Care Home states my Dad does not have capacity but due to COVID-19 there is a massive backlog with the NHS (not there fault) bbut at least it is actioned.  (this is short version)

 

Please do contact the Public Guardians Office (they do not bite and are very helpful in assisting you with what to do I had to contact them numerous times during COVID-19): https://www.gov.uk/government/organisations/office-of-the-public-guardian

 

 

 

 

[Good Sister]

Hi Yorky55,

 

I'm reading your comments as though your dad has been confirmed to not have capacity, given that you were against going through the Court of Protection route at first, but please correct me if I'm wrong.

 

It can take a few weeks for the written confirmation to come through, as someone will need to go through your dad's case and confirm that your dad is very unlikely to regain mental capacity.

 

You can also chat to your social worker or your father's care home about getting written confirmation, at the risk of coming across as a bit cynical, it is in their interests that you get deputyship so the care fees get paid.

 

Whoever you ask for a written statement, make sure they fill out their part of form COP3 - this is the assessment of mental capacity form that the Court of Protection use and from experience, COP get a bit funny if something that is sent through deviates from their exact requirements.

 

Speaking of the forms, when you say 'understanding all the COP application forms', have you worked out which ones you need for your situation at least, or do you need some guidance here? Agree that their forms are quite a faff.

 

The best advice I can give you at this stage is to take your time with the forms. You are better off spending a week or two understanding the forms and your dad's financial info so you can put together the application as best as you can first time rather than rush it and have COP come back to you in a few months and say "we don't have this" or similar.

 

I know that it seems like time is of the essence because care home bills will stack up, but you will need to be patient here. I know it's easier said than done though.

 

GS

x

 

 

[Yorky55]

hy, thank you, I have to go work now, will catch up later, a lot of what you say is what Im having to do. Main problem ; getting the COP3 mental capacity form done first

[Yorky55]

HY, up date. Dad was hospital 7 weeks, then care home nearly 4 weeks, then hospital 2 weeks then care home 1 week and now in hospital 1 week and current.  He is still confused has delerium, not eating or drinking, had bouts of infections etc. 

The point is, I need someone somewhere to fill out a form to say dad hasnt capacity for agreeing or understanding. Without this I cant apply to court for  Deputyship. I am thinking of Appointee and explaining the situation to them.

On behalf of my young brother, who we have got help now for his learning difficulties and situation, we need access to dads money to pay the mounting bills and get vital bathroom repairs done.

Social Worker cant do assessment yet at care home as dad aint long enough there to get one done? How do I get the Ward consultant to do one, I asked the Staff nurse the other day to ask the consultant and explain situation.

I contacted Hospital SW team, but ward hasnt refered dad to them yet?

Anyone have any suggestions, I have printed all forms needed for court, but without medical one cant send it.

Its like banging my head against a brick wall.

Its upsetting for my brother and me

 

[honeybee13]

Hi. I'm sorry you're going through this. Has anything moved forward on having your Dad assessed since you last posted.

 

I'm not sure a ward consultant can do a mental capacity assessment, you probably need a psychiatrist.

 

If the ward can't help, I would speak to the social worker and AgeUK on Monday to see how you can move this forward. Hopefully other people will comment over the weekend.

 

HB

[Yorky55]

Dad has bouts of being awake, limited comunication, but certainly not in a understanding, agreeing or signing way, he doesnt really know who we are most of time. Its trying to get a SW? we back to square one. after 72hrs out of home, he is responsible of the ward/hospital.  untill they discharge him into SW care again. so 6 weeks starts again....and again, in meantime bills are wanting paying and bathroom needs repair badly, toilet will pack up soon, has been temp sorted

 

[stu007]

Hi

 

For the Mental Capacity Assessment it is correct that would have to be done by a psychiatrist which the Ward Consultant can actionto get this assessment done.

 

You need to inform the Ward Staff Nurse that you require to speak to your Dads Consultant as a matter of urgency and for them to give you a specific date and time or for that Consultant to phone you back and inform that Consultant what is required to be done with your Dad to be assessed and the reason.

 

You also need to know from the Social Worker whether your Dads Assessment is that he needs to be permanent in a Care Home or is it a short stay until well enough to return home with a package in place etc.

 

You also should have been told by the Social Worker if your Dad is in a Carer Home that you can apply for Funding via your Local Council and the amount you get depends on savings, propertry etc. (in fact contact the council and ask them for a Care Home Funding application form).

 

If your Dad after initially being in Hospital was tranfered to a Care Home for Assessment of his need (in Scotland its a 4 week assessment) and this assessment period is actually paid by the Local Council not yourself but as I said that is Scotland you would need to check and that is where you ask your nominated Social Worker these question about who pays for the Care Home Assessment period..

 

I completely sympathise with your situation and you keep your head up and make sure and look after your own Health & Wellbeing during this.

 

 

[Good Sister]

Hi again,

 

I'm sorry that you don't seem to be further along with your application and that it's being held up because of the mental capacity assessment.

 

Agree with Stu007 about getting the ward staff to get your dad's consultant on board as a matter of urgency. I also wonder whether the hospital PALS department might be worth a shot? Cannot be the first time they've ever dealt with a patient (or their next of kin) who is having trouble communicating with the right people for their care.

 

In terms of your dad's general bills mounting up... they will have to wait. You are not personally liable for your father's bills, so they can't make you pay them from your own pocket.

 

The issue with Appointeeism is that it only covers DWP benefits, so whilst it might help you access some money to tide you all over for the next few months, it's not a 'way of life' for dealing with the long-term finances of someone who cannot handle their own finances. The banks might accept the appointee order so an account can be set up but you won't be able to discuss with his other finances with them, let alone anyone else. I get why it seems like the easy option though and it is certainly a way forward in getting any new benefits your dad is entitled through sooner.

 

I completely relate to witnessing a lot of professionals dealing with these things at a leisurely pace at a time when you are already suffering with your dad's changing needs whilst grieving for the dad you knew. I'm appalled on your behalf.

 

I wish I could say it will get easier, but you will most likely end up arguing with the Court of Protection at some point and/or arguing with your dad's various finance firms who might seem clueless on how to handle your deputyship paperwork. This is why it's important to look after yourself as best you can, as you're going to need all your strength over the next few months.

 

I also wish your dad all the best in his latest setback - strokes are funny things and it's amazing (in a sad sense) how so many processes we take for granted like eating and speaking can be affected by a stroke, and also how suspectible stroke patients get to infections.

 

Please keep us updated on how you get on with your dad's hospital and social workers over the coming days and we'll help as best we can if these still prove to be an issue.

 

GS

x

[Yorky55]

HY, it is both time consuming and frustrating, trying to sort all thius out as well as looking after my younger brother and trying to sort out the family home, the bathroom repair is urgent and all the utility bills. we paid the home and content insurance as I felt it was important and hope to get this back from dads money.

 

I have printed the BF56 form for appointee. I will ring DWP 0800 731 7898 if this is correct number. I cant find an address to write to, have the Post Handling A, Wolverhampton one, if this is correct or is it dads up north.

 

I will phone the hospital ward tomorrow  ask to speak to Staff nurse and ask for consultant to contact me regarding dads assessment. I will try the SWs, but they say its hospital problem as they not referred dad to them yet.

 

In the meantime I have all the utlity bills waiting and the repairs.

 

But the SW couldnt assess dad in Home as he got put back into hospital before they could do it. so the 6 week free thing started again, but was only into it 2 weeks, before dad got put into hospital, there 2 weeks back into care home [6 weeks started again] then after 1 week back into hospital, where he is now, about 1 week?

 

Just update now; spoke to hospital ward, dad will be there for next few days or so, still confused. They will inform the consultant to ring me this afternoon, as I explained the situation and the matter is urgent.

[honeybee13]

I hope s/he gets back to you soon, Yorky. Please keep us posted.

 

HB

[Good Sister]

Thanks for the update Yorky, hope you get the ball rolling really quickly now.

 

For what it's worth, for the appointee form, I used the Wolverhampton address to send them my deputyship order and everything was processed fine. Unless you are advised differently when you call them, I would think this address would be the one you need.

[Yorky55]

well its 25 to 5 and no one has called me from the ward?