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Aviva ignored signs of financial abuse by sibling and supported by FOS


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Yes that was the letter they sent me in January to say they had resolved my complaint as at that point only £204 had been chargedback I received further default in Feb and they classed it as a domestic and further chargebacks continued with each default notice amounting to £2891

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@BankFodder yes I did I sent it separate I spike to the officer yesterday too she said she was going to speak to the economic commissioner and shes going through all the evidence and once her sergeant

Given delays in responding to the SAR,  maybe suggest to the FOS that they need to set a new date to reject the decision.  Perhaps they should add 3 weeks.

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Also, I understand that Aviva reversed some of your brothers chargebacks at first.

Later on they refuse to reverse any further chargebacks because they said that it was his money and not rightfully yours. Is this correct?

It's all in the documentation somewhere – but please could you very briefly list out the chargebacks which were reversed – general dates and amounts.

The chargebacks that they refuse to reverse because they were not rightfully yours – the date that they said this.

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It's getting complicated – but I think you should send an SAR to the DVLA.
You need to get all information they hold about you in respect of any vehicle – any time.

Don't expect this to be easy. DVLA don't like making these disclosures at the best of times and they are relying heavily on the Covid crisis at the moment.

Despite this, send the SAR this weekend.

I suppose it's about time you understood exactly what your identity has been used in respect of.

You said that the police have been involved. Are they still investigating? Has there been any prosecution? What has happened on this?

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I see that you suggested to the FOS that you hadn't received most of the correspondence that Aviva sent you – and that this might be because it had been sent by means of their portal.

Has it been confirmed that this correspondence was sent through the portal?

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Aviva have reversed all premiums to him so the insurance for 2015-2018 amounted to £2891 minus the original £204 they wrote off there is nothing left on the policy to reverse to him and they're holding me liable for the payment now 

Theyre not chasing him or anything its myself that's that's chased the chargebacks were done pretty much Jan/feb 

They refused to do chargebacks to myself as I complained if hes named on the policy why have all premiums been reversed to him and not the policyholder and they replied it wasn't my money as it belonged to him 

 

The police closed it and said its down to the insurance comkany to.investigate which they haven't as I've taken it to the FOS no prosecution happened

I assumed the letters were system generated and landed in the portal but i think FOS is claiming physical letters but I've not received them in the same way I havent received any paperwork with the loans hes taken out that are showing on my credit report 

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Okay have you done SARs to all the relevant people?

Also, in case I haven't suggested it already – because I'm losing track a bit – you need to make a list of all of the insurance accounts loans, – anything else that's been taken out in your name. Credit records et cetera. Because I think you are going to have to make a serious complaint to the police with a view to having it prosecuted.

If they are prepared to carry out their own investigation and to bring a prosecution then everything should finally come out into the light and you will have a full understanding of what has happened and also you will be protected in the future.

I still try to get my head around it but it certainly seems to me that all the warning signs of domestic abuse were in place and therefore Aviva acted inappropriately by allowing your brother to take control in the way that they did and to allow accounts to be set up in your name.
Also, there was clear evidence that he was setting up the insurance simply as a front – to front him as the main driver on the back of the insurance which was taken out in your name.

It's also clear to me that the insurance contract was with you. Although the money was paid by your brother, your brother had no legal relationship with them. He was not contracting partner. The money that was being paid to them by a brother was effectively a gift to you and therefore they were wrong to allow the chargeback – and wrong to say that the money was not "rightly yours". Although of course the bank account was not your name and they couldn't have been a chargeback to you, they were wrong to have allowed the chargeback to 1/3 party who was not involved in the insurance contract.

I think we may simply have to wait until the SARs have been disclosed – but in the meantime we will have to respond to the ombudsman when you decline your decision and make a number of points which will go on file.

I'm trying to think what I've asked you to do so far:
certainly, to send some SARs.
To put together a list of all activity which has been started using your name and which effectively is a result of identity fraud by your brother
I also think that you should write to Aviva and asked them if they have a policy relating to domestic abuse – and if so please can you have a copy. They will decline to let you have it even if they admit that they do have policy – but at least we will have it on paper that they don't make it available to people. Of course it is absurd not to publish domestic abuse policies because they form part of their "process" which I do not accept has been followed by Aviva.
Their "process" are a set of rules which govern the way that they deal with your business. In other words those rules applied to the conduct of your contract and its absurd to say that you are bound by a contract that we won't tell you what all the rules of that contract are.

It's still incredibly complicated and I'm having difficulty finding my way through – but I do think that Aviva have acted incorrectly by allowing the policy to be formed in the first place.
Also, I hope you won't mind me saying that I know that you are from a background where culturally there is likely to be a high level of extended family involvement and pressure.
It is clear to me that if there is a domestic abuse policy in place with Aviva – and they do claim all to be trained – that that abuse policy should include being alert to naming conventions in relation to ethnicity and culture and they should be aware that some names should set off warning bells that taken with other clues such as different names, different addresses, apparent different marital status of two people even though the man claims that they are married, plus a reluctance to allow the call handler to speak to the main policyholder with which the contract is being formed – all of these should raise in any prudent person – properly trained and aware – reasonable suspicion that extra enquiries should be made.
In fact the call handler in this case was actually worried about it and went to get permission from the manager.
Clearly there were reasonable grounds for suspicion. Clearly the call handler entertained a reasonable suspicion and it is the manager who made a mistake either through carelessness, laziness, or inadequate training.

If that manager had not ignored all the warning signs, then none of this would have happened.

Of course the other people who have decided to ignore all the warning signs are – The Financial Ombudsman Service – the adjudicator and the ombudsman. This speaks volumes to the second-rate slap-hazard limp-wristed approach that we get from a statutory regulator.
It would be interesting also to know if the FOS has domestic abuse policies in place.

Have I suggested to you that you make an FOIA request to the FOS?

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@honeybee13 the link doesn't work hun @BankFodder yes I will be making a serious complaint what kind of points can I raise to the ombudsman when I decline I feel trapped in this mess and can't see a way out head has stopped working started suffering from panic attacks for quite some time now 

 

 

@BankFodder I've sent SARs to all companies Inc the ones that have loans I'm not aware of I just need to send a SAR to DVLA 

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5 minutes ago, Titchytitch said:

@honeybee13 the link doesn't work hun @BankFodder yes I will be making a serious complaint what kind of points can I raise to the ombudsman when I decline I feel trapped in this mess and can't see a way out head has stopped working started suffering from panic attacks for quite some time now 

 

 

It works for me. Maybe BF could tell us if he can see it.

 

HB

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Illegitimi non carborundum

 

 

 

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You won't be making a complaint to the FOS. There's no purpose. The decision is made and there is no appeal. You simply be making a list of points that they should have picked up on and that they have missed or ignored.

However, I think you should send the FOS an FOIA request.

Asked them to disclose to you any policies that they have relating to domestic or economic abuse financial abuse, notes or minutes of any discussions they have had internally and any notes or discussions that they have had with any external body or organisation on the subject of domestic or financial or economic abuse.

Send that letter off to them on Monday. They have 20 days to respond.

Make sure the letter is headed "Freedom of Information Request".

 

Post the letter appear before you send it.

Please also post up a draft of the letter that you will be sending to Aviva on Monday on broadly the same subject
 

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You have time to do that.

At the moment, please concentrate on selling the SARs, the FOIA request, gathering together a list of every instance that you can discover concerning identity fraud against you.

 

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I think it's worth outlining what is happening here.

There are two issues. There is a connection between them but I think they can be distinguished.

First of all there is the Aviva issue.
I think in respect of this, will be necessary first of all to show that there were very clear indicators of abuse being perpetuated and that they should have followed the instincts of the call handler and insisted on speaking to you all else refusing to issue the policy.
Part of this also is that they should have challenged the chargebacks and they should have recognised that their contract was with you and that although the payments were being made directly by a brother, in fact the payments were from you and that if your brother wanted his money back then he should have dealt with you.
I'm not too sure on what basis he demanded the chargebacks. Is there any clue? Of course this would be between him and his bank and so you would not be privy to this. However, maybe the subject access request will produce something.
Also – the clear evidence that this policy was being purchased in order to enable fronting. On this basis, the insurance company should have written to you and raised the issue and this would have been a basis for revoking the insurance – but not for returning the money.

 



The second issue is the general problem that you have with your brother about identity theft, his fraudulent use of your details, issue of forged documents incurring debts in your name and so forth.
This requires police action. I've read some of the documents that you have posted again and in fact I now realise that this is the subject of a live investigation and that you are expecting a visit from the police on the 28th of this month.
In addition to answering their questions and giving them as much detail as possible about all the fraudulent activity, I think it will be helpful to you to repeatedly draw their attention to the Aviva problem, the fronting, the attempt by him to defraud Aviva of their money by instigating multiple chargebacks in respect of a insurance contract in which you were the contracting party and in which he had no position.

It will be very helpful if you can get the police to deal with this specifically and to agree with you.
I think also when you are dealing with the police I think you need to emphasise that in fact although this is not domestic abuse in the conventional sense – because it is with your brother/extended family, you have still come under similar pressures and it must be treated as an example of domestic abuse.

If the police are prepared to accept this, you will find that it will motivate them even more because domestic abuse is a pretty dirty word today and everybody is concerned about awareness of it.

I would expect that the police training relating to domestic abuse will tend to exclude the possibility of domestic abuse carried out by extended families – and in this case your brother, but you must emphasise it and re-emphasise it.
Point out to them that it was not so long ago that Theresa May wrote an article in the press in which she herself pointed out that domestic abuse is not limited to the immediate family but also can come about as a result of abuse from an extended family.

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Because the truth is that some people who are suffering do not know it is domestic abuse — and that help is out there for them.

Domestic abuse is not just physical violence in a marriage. The perpet­rat­or could be a current or ex-partner, a co-­parent, or a relative.

The abuse could be sexual or non-sexual.

 

https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/12069662/theresa-may-boris-johnson-end-domestic-abuse-crisis/

 

Print out a copy of this article and show it to the police. Show it to anyone else who thinks that abuse is simply limited within the immediate family.

 

I think the second issue – of the identity fraud and the multiple attempts to borrow money or get insurance policies et cetera in your name – will have to be resolved by the police and you need a successful prosecution – which I think should be fairly straightforward.
I expect that you will come under a lot of pressure from your brother and also may be extended family not to pursue proceedings.
Frankly you won't be helping yourself if you give in to this pressure and you probably had better get ready for a tough time.

I can imagine that for the police to get themselves together and bring a prosecution will take a long time and you could be looking at more than a year that even two years.

In terms of the Aviva situation, I think we need to try and put our evidence together and if at some point we feel that we have enough evidence to show that their training and policies should have been enough to cause them to refuse the policy. Then we have a basis for saying that they didn't follow their own process. Or else that their process was unfair.

What this next leads to is difficult to say. I suppose there is a remote possibility that Aviva might want to revisit the situation and undo all the damage they have done without admitting any liability.
The second possibility might be to bring an action against them for unfair treatment contrary to the FCA ICOBS rules.

Don't hold your breath. We may not be able to do anything but we will look at the situation very carefully. Don't expect it to be quick.

However start keeping detailed notes of everything that happens in the future, any contact from your brother et cetera. And of course assemble all the paperwork.





 

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Thank you @BankFodderfor the detailed direction you've understood the dilemma well I will try and find time to do the FOIR tomorrow do I need to send one to aviva too? I've sent one regarding the social responsibility and SER's to aviva  I will also do a SAR for DVLA  xx

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Aviva is not subject to the Freedom of Information Act. You could only send them on SAR to get personal data relating to you.

Of course what we'd really like to see would be any policies they have relating to domestic abuse – and also their training. However, they won't want to disclose it – but we may as well ask nicely.

Maybe you could post the draft of the letter you are proposing to send up here and we can have a look.

On the other hand, the FOS is subject to the Freedom of Information Act although they may try and find their own reasons why they feel that the information you want this excluded by the Act.

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@BankFodder my draft letter for the FOIA please advise?

 

Dear Financial Ombudsman Services Ltd,

 

I am writing in regard to your Freedom Information Request. Could you please disclose information regarding your investigators forecast productivity. What is an investigators actual average productivity in terms of general casework closures per week? Please could you provide the answer for each year since 2019/20 and 2020/21?

Also, could you kindly disclose any policies that you have relating to domestic or economic financial abuse, notes or minutes of any discussions that have taken place internally and any notes or discussions that have taken place with any external body or organisation on the subject of domestic , financial or economic abuse.

If you do have the policies in place , what training is given to case workers, managers and adjudicators to identify these issues or signs in cases handled by themselves.

I look forward to hearing from you in due course.

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@BankFodder this was letter posted to aviva re financial policies i posted this on Friday

 

 

Quote

 

Financial abuse policies and training.

 

I have seen on your website that you have recently published information about Aviva's attitude to financial advice, information relating to indicators of financial advice and also referring to your close association with the Surviving Economic Abuse organisation (SAE) and to the training that you provide to your staff on recognising the warning signs of financial abuse.

I'm extremely encouraged to see this so prominently displayed on your website and also I'm very pleased to see that you are working closely with SAE which is an organisation which I am familiar with.

I'd be very grateful if you could provide me with a copy of your financial abuse policy – and also details of the training that you are providing your staff. If you would be prepared to let me have sight of the training materials then I would be very grateful indeed.

 

 

 

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Perfect

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@BankFodder I received this response from a solicitor as I wanted to know my legal rights from the FOS rejection perspective they sent this are you aware of any time limits ?

Thank you for your recent enquiry. 

 

 

Quote

 

Thank you for your recent enquiry. 

 

Our solicitors have now considered the information you provided to us. Unfortunately, we are unable to assist you on this occasion as we do not believe that your claim has sufficient prospects of success. 


This is our professional opinion; however, it does not prevent you from seeking advice with an alternative firm of Solicitors. 

 

Time Limits 

 

If you wish to pursue this matter further, please be aware that your claim will be subject to strict time limits and you may not be able to pursue a claim if these are not adhered to.  

 

The exact time limit which applies to your claim may vary depending on a number of factors and the type of claim you wish to pursue. Depending on the nature of your claim it may be that your limitation date expires imminently, hence why we recommend you seek

Our solicitors have now considered the information you provided to us. Unfortunately, we are unable to assist you on this occasion as we do not believe that your claim has sufficient prospects of success. 

 

 


This is our professional opinion; however, it does not prevent you from seeking advice with an alternative firm of Solicitors. 

 

Time Limits 

 

If you wish to pursue this matter further, please be aware that your claim will be subject to strict time limits and you may not be able to pursue a claim if these are not adhered to.  

 

The exact time limit which applies to your claim may vary depending on a number of factors and the type of claim you wish to pursue. Depending on the nature of your claim it may be that your limitation date expires imminently, hence why we recommend you seek

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Please will you post up the enquiry that you sent which produced this response.

I'm going to say now that I'm afraid that the problem you have is too messy and too low value to interest any firm of solicitors. Even if you did find a firm of solicitors which was prepared to take it on, it is unlikely that they would be specialised enough and activist enough to be able to understand the issues and the way forward.
I'm afraid that you will need from people who have a killer instinct and you are prepared to kick arse if they can.
That tends to be us I'm afraid. We get personally invested. Also, you will have what it takes to push this through if you really want to – and that is you have self interest and – Grudge – and without these two highly motivating factors, it will simply be a slow process which will eventually fatigue you until you give up.
Any firm of solicitors will not have these motivating factors.

I'm afraid this really is about doing it yourself with our help and we will stay with it as long as we can – but it won't be easy.

The objective here is to try and get sufficient evidence that when they set up the insurance, they ignored the signs of abuse which in fact should have set alarm bells ringing.

If we are able to demonstrate that they had policies in place – or they should have had policies in place which any reasonably aware and trained company would have had an yet they ignored the signs, then I think you have a basis for challenging them on unfair treatment.

As I said, this really won't be very easy and I think that we will have to contact various abuse organisations and but some of the basic facts to them and asked them whether they think that those signs ring alarm bells.

When we do that, I don't think we should discuss anything about the future contact of the case – the allegations that you are then sent correspondence et cetera et cetera et cetera. We are only interested in that first phone call – the one which was used to set up the insurance.

The ombudsman was wrong, in my view to look at all the subsequent events. The only thing which had been queried and the only thing which is significant is whether the policy should have been set up in the first place. If the answer is that it should not have been, then everything else falls.

I'm trying to have some contact with some abuse agencies to run the facts past them – and if you are going to do the same thing then we need to agree exactly what you're going to disclose to them. You should not complicate the issue or cast any doubts on their mind by talking about the later conduct of the insurance and the correspondence et cetera.

Any contact and any description of events must be strictly limited to the description of that telephone call which they had with your brother. It has been very well described by the ombudsman and we will use that as the basis.

However, I think it will be wise to wait for the SARs and also the Freedom of information act request because that may provide us with more information to go on.

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On 20/04/2021 at 12:27, Titchytitch said:

 

please don't hit Quote...just type we know what we said earlier..

DCA's view debtors as suckers, marks and mugs

NO DCA has ANY legal powers whatsoever on ANY debt no matter what it's Type

and they

are NOT and can NEVER  be BAILIFFS. even if a debt has been to court..

If everyone stopped blindly paying DCA's Tomorrow, their industry would collapse overnight... 

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On 24/04/2021 at 15:35, BankFodder said:

...
Part of this also is that they should have challenged the chargebacks and they should have recognised that their contract was with you and that although the payments were being made directly by a brother, in fact the payments were from you ...

 

 

Apologies if I've got this wrong and am muddying the water, but why on earth would the OP want to argue that Aviva had a contract with her and not with her brother? 

 

Surely the whole basis of any argument put forward by the OP should be that she never had any knowledge of her brother's application to Aviva, that she never authorised him to make any such application on her behalf, and that she never (either by herself or through her brother) entered into any contract at all with Aviva?

 

Also, I cannot for the life of me understand the FOS decision if the facts of this case are as the OP says.  The FOS seems to have completely ignored the fact that the OP never entered into a contract with Aviva, preferring instead to examine whether Aviva adhered to their own internal procedures.  According to the apparent FOS logic, if Aviva had a policy that said "We will do everything wrongly and defraud the customer", then Aviva would not be at fault if they did just that. 

 

I do not understand how the FOS can decide that party B ends up in a contractual relationship with insurance company A because party Z has fraudulently held themselves out to A as acting on B's behalf.  It's unbelievable!

 

The only issue I can that may reflect on the OP (and I wonder if this influenced the FOS decision) is that the OP could possibly be argued to have been fronting for her brother when she* took out the original policy in July 2015.  But that wasn't with Aviva so I dont think what happened then is relevant to the current issue.

 

 

*From my reading of the FOS decision, that original policy was actually taken out by the OP herself with her brother as named driver.  (Sorry if that is wrong and has been corrected but I've missed it)

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You are quite right – and maybe I didn't express myself clearly.

The starting position is that there is no contract between the brother and Aviva – and in fact that Aviva intended to contract with the system.
After that, all Aviva stealing should have been with the sister and they should have taken any instructions from the sister and not from the brother.
Then of course we go onto the fact that if they finally accept that they contracted with the sister – then of course the final position is that the contract was invalid.

It was effectively achieved by a fraud by the brother.

I completely agree, that this point was never considered by the FOS.

Aviva should have been on enquiry because all of the indicators of an abusive man – apparently the husband – were clear for anybody who was apparently trained and subject to abuse policies and therefore Aviva should never have entered into the contract.

In summary, there was no contract with the brother. If there was a valid contract then it would be with the sister and she was the only one entitled to give instructions – but in the final event, there was no valid contract with her either.

Aviva are victims of fraud

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