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Aviva ignored signs of financial abuse by sibling and supported by FOS


Titchytitch
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Okay, in that case I think you should take a break from this and try to relax a little bit. You need to understand that complaint to the independent assessor will not change anything and so for the moment, absolutely nothing will change. There's nothing you can do to change anything so get used to the situation.

Take a week or 2 to try and calm down and to get everything into perspective. It will be nice if we got some news from the police and I have to say worries me that the police haven't moved in immediately and arrested your brother on the Aviva fraud. I'm afraid that these kind of delays make me feel uncomfortable and make me think that some point down the line they will say that they aren't going to bring charges.

When you get a quite moment in you feel calm then start drafting out a complaint to the Independent assessor and then let us see what you have done – but there is absolutely no hurry and as I say, it won't change anything.

The anything that can change anything now would be to begin a legal action against Aviva and if you did, I have very high expectations that you would succeed. Although I have to say that I was pretty amazed that the ombudsman found against you on the basis of the information that had been given to them by Aviva as to the phone call which led to the setting up of the policy.

After you've calmed down, it would be good idea if you would deal with the communications issue which I referred to above and which was referred to in the ombudsman's decision. That will be very important if you decide to take legal action

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@BankFodder thank you for your kind support I think you're right 100% let's just see what develops over the next few weeks 

 

The officer is trying to get to the bottom of it she put everything forward to the economic crime unit who concluded that although fraud had taken place with the companies and its settled they're not out of pocket so there's no financial loss

 

So shes now done another report just on me to say the identity theft has caused me financial loss and will be bringing him in on that basis im hoping it will be imminently in the not so distant future 

 

I will try and get things in perspective regarding the communication etc and I'll let you know if I hear anything else 

 

 

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1 minute ago, Titchytitch said:

 

 

The officer is trying to get to the bottom of it she put everything forward to the economic crime unit who concluded that although fraud had taken place with the companies and its settled they're not out of pocket so there's no financial loss

 

 

 

Of course this is nonsense – and am afraid it shows loud and clear that they don't want to take any action.

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3 hours ago, BankFodder said:

...Although the approach to the ombudsman has not produced the decision in your favour, he has produced one very valuable piece of information and that is Aviva's own description of what happened including the fact that their own call handler had doubts and had to refer to a manager. Also, the very detailed description of what happened and how it was set up and the fact that it is clear that they were effectively prevented from speaking to you when the policy was set up and that there had been no contact with you throughout the duration of the policy, is extremely helpful.
I doubt whether you would have gotten such a clear and detailed explanation if this had simply been litigated...

 

Maybe I've missed it - and apologies if I have - but that "valuable piece of information" isn't in any way connected to anything from the ombudsman, is it?  I thought that information had come directly to the OP from somebody at Aviva who telephoned her and said that the call handler to whom her brother originally spoke had never needed to refer the call to a supervisor/manager for approval in the first place?  Unless Aviva recorded it I'm sure it's deniable... 

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@Manxman in exile its recorded in their notes that the call handler checked with the manager before going ahead and setting the policy up as she had reservations 

When Stephen Stuart rang me he said he had evidence that the handler had no reason to question the manager 

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1 hour ago, Titchytitch said:

@Manxman in exile its recorded in their notes that the call handler checked with the manager before going ahead and setting the policy up as she had reservations 

When Stephen Stuart rang me he said he had evidence that the handler had no reason to question the manager 

 

Right.  So I was mistaken, and that confirmation that the Aviva call handler referred your brother's application to a supervisor or manager comes to you via the ombudsman from Aviva's contemporaneous notes, but the info that the call handler did not need to do that came direct to you from Stephen Stuart (who I assume is an Aviva employee)?

 

Sorry - just trying to ensure it is clear what info came from whom.

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So the call handler had reservations, but went ahead based on a quick chat with their Team Leader.

 

The problem with most Insurance companies is that Team Leaders are quite often just supervisors and mostly don't have years of experience of dealing with Insurance underwriting.  So mistakes are made and risks are accepted which probably don't comply with the Insurers own underwriting guidelines.

 

The FOS process is finished so no point dwelling on this.  If you do go down the Court route later, I would ask for a copy of Avivas underwriting guidelines and process information that was in use by their staff at the time of policies being sold.

 

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... and which Aviva claimed to have followed and which the FOS claims to have seen

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  • 2 weeks later...

@BankFodder update from the police

Apologies for the delay in my reply. Your brother is now circulated as wanted so he officers will be making arrest attempts at his address and will bring him into custody for him to be interviewed. They will then conduct a house search at his address and seize anything of evidential value. He will then most likely be released on bail and I will do what is necessary with the evidence we might have seized.

 

I will let you know when he has been arrested and interviewed if I am working at the time

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Okay – I expect it's going to be a lot of work but I hope it's productive.

I think you definitely are going to have to make notes as you go. If you follow some of the advice about preparing your court bundle, this may give you some ideas.

I think I would start off by making sure that the bundle was in chronological order, and then numbering the pages with a pen and then creating a spreadsheet index with the number, date of each document, title of the document, any comments.

I think even this will start to give you a feel of what's in there.

Once you have done that, you can start work out if there is anything missing. I think you are especially interested in seeing if there are any processes or procedures included – but I expect there aren't. I think you can be pretty certain that anything abuse will have been excluded as far as they can.

In terms of phone calls, you are going to have to listen to them and make notes. May be a new sheet of paper for each one and then fit that into your indexed file as well.

I'm afraid it's likely to be a lot of work.

When you got it all sorted and indexed, you can compare it against any documents or information that you've already got and see if there's anything missing

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  • 4 weeks later...

@BankFodder ive just got round to going through the subject access request and the big bundle of papers they sent with the recordings. 

what a load of s*****!! mind my french, there is no sight of any process to show that they followed processes they are standard policy documents and policy information different email addresses phone numbers and bank details unrelated to me  are in there.

17/01/20 i had rung Aviva and explained the policy had nothing to do with me the brother had provided screenshots to prove he had made payments and its an error on their part it has nothing to do with me , on 20/01/20 they spoke to Mr Z and said they completed DPA with myself present in this call, our relationship broke down 09/19 so all i can think of it was his wife perpetrating to be myself and its in this call he has cancelled the policy to renewal.

 

he made a payment of £207.50 on a debit card when he first took the policy out in 2015/16

 

there was a call from the police officer on 08/12/2017 checking he was covered to drive the vehicle

 

There was a litigation case via Keoghs solicitors with another claimant and a "supposedly court trial" im unaware of as nothing came to myself so not sure what the end result has been 

 

The recordings they have sent are just my phone calls to aviva so between me and aviva nothing else

 

So not sure what next steps are .....  

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We have 19 pages now.

 

Would be great to have a brief summary of where we are now.

 

Are you looking to sue Aviva ?  Are you wanting a compensation amount from them ?

 

Or are you preparing just in case Aviva issue a Court claim against you. ?

 

There are many Data Protection issues as Aviva appear to have breached the Data Protection Act (DPA) on many occasions.  Has a complaint under the DPA been made to Aviva, so that you can involve the ICO ?

We could do with some help from you.

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@unclebulgaria67 i had put a subject request in to Aviva which they sent to me a few weeks ago but with  kids and summer holidays ive just got round to looking at the bundle.

 

1) I am wanting to create a bundle in case Aviva take me to court as they are holding me liable for the outstanding monies whilst they happily refunded the money back to mr Z, i cant see how i can create a court bundle as its generic info and insurance documents, i also noticed he has given my NCD evidence but there's a shadow of a mobile on that copy so hes taken a pic of the document somehow- he did use to come to my house . Either create a bundle or get them to admit they were wrong and to close the complaint down and write the amount off ideally!

2) The police have circulated him as wanted i have no further update on that other than the calderdale police will be arresting him and bringing him into interview

3)He has made comments to extended family "if he goes down hes taking me down" on the basis of i've released his cars from teh police i have only presented my license as he had me as the registered owner of his vehicles so this is where domestic abuse and threats had come into ut and i went to release the cars only presenting my license the Aviva portal was controlled by him and the policy in its entirety.

4) I have written to the CEO and all the big people within aviva but they are refusing to acknowledge any of my complaint because the FOS hasnt upheld my complaint

5) ICO complaint not made yet 

 

Hope that summarizes x

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@honeybee13 the sevice management at the FOS have said the complaint wasnt upheld as the adjudicator had sight of a process that aviva has followed  so theyve some nothing wrong 

 

-the policy was set up with Mr Z claiming to be my husband the handler was suspicious as to why she couldn't speak to myself but the manager authorised the policy to be set up

-mr Z has made all the payments ont he policy ad well as controlled the whole policy 

-the police have circulated him as wanted and hes due to be arrested 

@BankFodderhe's aware of most of the case and suggested we complain to the independent assessor nothing has come up in the subject access  

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sorry comma I've been away and still am but could you remind me of when the deadline for complaining to the Independent assessor expires

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OK - no probs, it will be done well before then

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@Titchytitch

 

I would suggest that you write a list of bullet point sentences of the issues you feel are relevant.  This will help you when you start to write a fuller complaint.

 

Remember this is about the FOS handling of your complaint and not the complaint substance itself.

 

I think it might be fair to state that the complaints handler failed to collect all relevant information pertaining to your complaint.  Lack of proper inquiry to consider the complaint fully.

 

The complaint handler did not sufficiently question information provided by Aviva,.  They made presumptions about the information supplied by Aviva and did not apply the level of diligence that would be expected from an Ombudsman Service.

 

 

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We could do with some help from you.

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  • 1 month later...

@BankFodder just a quick update I have been informed by my sister in law her husband was arrested by the police tonight after being circulated as wanted, she rang me threatening on the phone etc this has been logged with the police.

Also need to write a letter to the independent assessor by 8th October im really sorry im really struggling with this x

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Thanks for this update.

I'm sorry that we've left it so long. I'm afraid that I've had a lot of other complicated commitments at the moment and so it's been difficult for me to turn my attention to anything.

I've drafted a complaint below. I'm sure it needs work. It is based on points I made on June 17.

Please will you have a look and comment and then we can amend it.

 

Quote

Dear Independent Assessor

Reference number XXX
 

I am making a complaint about the service standards applied to the investigation of my complaint against Aviva insurance – reference number XXX.

 

I understand that the independent assessor will not interfere in the decision made by the ombudsman but once again, I emphasise that this complaint is about the standard of that investigation although of course I have referred to some of the elements within the ombudsman's decision.
 

My service standards complaint
The ombudsman, who declined to uphold my complaint, based that decision mainly on the fact that Aviva had apparently followed their “process” and because they had followed that ""process"", their action in entering into a contract of motor insurance was fair.

It is important that I emphasise that the decision to reject my complaint turned on the ombudsman's acceptance that there was a "process" and that by following this "process", Aviva had acted fairly.


My service complaint is based on my entirely reasonable belief that the ombudsman has never seen the Aviva "process".
Because the ombudsman had never seen the Aviva "process", the ombudsman was unable to know whether the "process" had been followed.
The ombudsman found that by following the "process" Aviva acted fairly. It was impossible for the ombudsman to reach this decision when they had never had sight of the "process", had no direct knowledge as to whether the "process" had been followed and were unable to judge its fairness in any event.


Aviva themselves admitted that the call handler who took the original fraudulent telephone call was suspicious and uncomfortable about setting up the policy and so they decided to refer the matter to a manager.


It is clear that that had the call handler simply relied on her own instinct, that the fraudulent policy would never have been taken out and none of the resulting events would have happened.
One might say that the failure by the Aviva call handler to rely on her own instinct and the overriding of her concerns by her manager were the root cause of everything that happened as a result.

 

On 2 June 2021 I received a phone call from Aviva complaints department and during that conversation the complaints call handler pointed out that the call handler in XXX year had made a mistake because she had the authority to decide whether or not to provide the insurance cover and she had no need to go to the manager.

Clearly there was a "process" in place but it seems it was not followed. 
In other words, if the call handler in XXX year had adhered to the Aviva “process” the fraudulent policy would never have been provided.


 

My complaint is:

The ombudsman did not require to see any document laying out the Aviva “process” and that they have simply accepted Aviva’s word for it.

It may be that Aviva has deliberately or inadvertently misled the ombudsman.
The ombudsman did not enquire as to whether any "process" was followed by Aviva.
The ombudsman did not assess and Aviva "process" for fairness.

 

If that is the case then the ombudsman’s investigation was not complete and this must surely fall below the FOS service standards.

 

Although this is not directly relevant to the ombudsman investigation or to my complaint, you may be interested to know that on XXX date my brother was arrested by the police and charged with an offence in relation to this fraud and others.

It should go without saying that if my brother has profited from the proceeds of crime in the form of fraudulently obtained loans and insurance policies then the victims of these thefts are the insurance companies or lenders which have been dishonestly persuaded to provide him with their money or the services.

It is a wholly unacceptable situation that I, as a victim of domestic abuse, should be required to repay to Aviva the proceeds of my brothers fraudulent activities and also be saddled with the catastrophic effect upon my own financial reputation amongst credit reference agencies and financial institutions.

The ombudsman service by its failure to conduct a proper investigation has been complicit in this unfair treatment of me and complicit in the domestic abuse of which I am a victim.

For the avoidance of doubt, domestic abuse is not necessarily limited to the immediate family but also can occur within the extended family.

An encouraging article written recently by Theresa May pointed this out and of course it is true. (I can provide you with a reference for this if you want.)

Finally I would point out that I have attempted to obtain the ombudsman service policies on domestic abuse and also the domestic abuse policy of Aviva, and neither have been forthcoming.


Independent assessors timescale

I understand that the timescale for a decision by the independent assessor is 14 days. However I do understand that it will be necessary to ask Aviva to provide certain information and therefore I am indicating right now that I’m happy that the 14 day deadline be extended to a full 28 days.


Yours faithfully

 

 

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But I seem to remember somewhere that there was another process which should have been followed and that was that the ombudsman should have come back to you before the final report.

Please can you remind me about that and point out where it was written – or maybe even quote that part here

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