Tanzarelli V's Lloyds TSB ********WON*****

[TANZARELLI]

Hi Tanz,

 

You should file for the new amount after the refund, but still claim exactly the same interest as before. They were in possession of your money from xx/xx/xx to yesterday, or whenever they gave you the refund. They are still liable for the interest for that period dispite the fact that they've refunded a proportion of the charges, if you subtract the £750 as a proportion of each charge rather than as whole charges. Ie divide the £750 over the amount of charges there are and subtract that figure from each charge. Make sense?

 

For example, if you've got 40 charges: 750 / 40 = 18.75, then take 18.75 off of the value of each charge. File the new claim for all the charges minus 18.75

 

Hi Gary,

 

I have managed to amend the schedule of claim for charges, wondered if you could take a quick look to see if ok before I re-file my claim.

 

Not sure how this will show up on here so if layout look wrong its prob a space thing in thread. On paper it looks ok. Here goes:

 

NAME

LLOYDS TSB BANK PLC

SORT CODE:- **-**_**

Claim Number

6QZ*****

ACCOUNT NUMBER:- ********

Amended Copy

as of

31/12/2006

SCHEDULE OF CLAIM FOR CHARGES

Last Entry Date

06 not 05

PERIOD: 01/07/2004 TO 03/07/2006

In Respect of:

Amount

Date Incurred

Days since offence

Interest 8% APR

UNPAID DD CHARGES

£60.00

01/07/2004

913

£12.05

UNPAID DD CHARGES

£96.00

01/02/2005

698

£14.74

UNPAID DD CHARGE

£32.00

01/04/2005

639

£4.50

UNPAID DD CHARGES

£64.00

03/05/2005

607

£8.55

UNPAID DD CHARGES

£160.00

01/06/2005

578

£20.35

UNPAID SO CHARGE

£32.00

01/07/2005

548

£3.86

UNPAID DD CHARGE

£32.00

01/07/2005

548

£3.86

UNPAID DD CHARGE

£32.00

01/08/2005

517

£3.64

UNPAID SO CHARGE

£35.00

03/10/2005

454

£3.50

UNPAID DD CHARGES

£105.00

03/10/2005

454

£10.49

UNPAID SO CHARGE

£35.00

01/11/2005

425

£3.27

UNPAID DD CHARGE

£35.00

01/11/2005

425

£3.27

UNPAID DD CHARGES

£70.00

01/06/2006

213

£3.28

UNPAID DD CHARGE

£35.00

03/07/2006

181

£1.39

£823.00

£96.74

£919.74

Following my previous claim being suspended due to the claimants name being entered as the

Defendants and also due to the Defendant making a payment into my account of

£750.00

which I have notified the Defendant that I am only accepting as a partial payment of the total

amount which was originally claimed, I am amending my schedule of claim for charges.

The £750 part payment has been divided by the total number of charges applied to my account,

this gave a figure of £30.00 which has been deducted from each individual charge to give the

amount outstanding for each individual charge. For example:-

£750.00 divided by 25 (total number of charges) = £30.00 this figure was subtracted from each

individual charge to leave the amount still outstanding in charges owed by the Defendant.

In Respect of:

Amount

Date Incurred

New Amount

2 x UNPAID DD CHARGES @ £30

£60.00

01/07/2004

£0.00

3 x UNPAID DD CHARGES @ £32

£96.00

01/02/2005

£6.00

1 x UNPAID DD CHARGE @ £32

£32.00

01/04/2005

£2.00

2 x UNPAID DD CHARGES @ £32

£64.00

03/05/2005

£4.00

5 x UNPAID DD CHARGES @ £32

£160.00

01/06/2005

£10.00

1 x UNPAID SO CHARGE @ £32

£32.00

01/07/2005

£2.00

1 x UNPAID DD CHARGE @ £32

£32.00

01/07/2005

£2.00

1 x UNPAID DD CHARGE @ £32

£32.00

01/08/2005

£2.00

1 x UNPAID SO CHARGE @ £35

£35.00

03/10/2005

£5.00

3 x UNPAID DD CHARGES @ £35

£105.00

03/10/2005

£15.00

1 x UNPAID SO CHARGE @ £35

£35.00

01/11/2005

£5.00

1 x UNPAID DD CHARGE @ £35

£35.00

01/11/2005

£5.00

2 x UNPAID DD CHARGES @ £35

£70.00

01/06/2006

£10.00

1 x UNPAID DD CHARGE @ £35

£35.00

03/07/2006

£5.00

Total still owed to the claimant in charges

£73.00

Total still owed to the Claimant in Interest

at 8% as above

£96.74

Grand Total

£169.74

 

 

Also worked out daily rate and it was only 2p per day so left it off.

 

Cheers

 

Tanz

[TANZARELLI]

Yes it has moved about a bit. But if you try hard you will work out that i have left old charges at top then explained reason for amending the schedule of claim for charges, then deducted 30 from each charge to leave total still owed as you suggested. I think its ok but it may look to confusing on a post.

 

Tanz

[FairlyNiceChap]

Hi Tanz,

 

Before you go ahead, and I hope Im not too late. Is there any reason why yopu dont go for the contractual rate of interest - For example on your first entry of £60 three years ago you would be looking at more than doubling due to compounded unauthorised interest rate, rather than 24% simple interest

 

It seems a heck of a lot to forego just for the sake of doing a few sums

 

Whatever you chose - Good luck

 

FNC

[GaryH]

That looks fine to me.

 

Not sure you should go for contractual interest at this stage. You'd have to start again from the prelim for a start, well the LBA at least, plus they've already given you a refund of most of what you were claiming based on what you claimed initially. It would'nt seem reasonable now to go back with a large interest claim.

[TANZARELLI]

Hi Tanz,

 

Before you go ahead, and I hope Im not too late. Is there any reason why yopu dont go for the contractual rate of interest - For example on your first entry of £60 three years ago you would be looking at more than doubling due to compounded unauthorised interest rate, rather than 24% simple interest

 

It seems a heck of a lot to forego just for the sake of doing a few sums

 

Whatever you chose - Good luck

 

FNC

 

Hi FNC,

 

I would have to go back to poss the prelim stage as I have not mentioned this in previous correspondence. So i will let them of for this time. I'm saving that for my Barclaycard claim 27.9%. So not that bothered.

 

Thanks anyway

 

Tanz

[TANZARELLI]

That looks fine to me.

 

Not sure you should go for contractual interest at this stage. You'd have to start again from the prelim for a start, well the LBA at least, plus they've already given you a refund of most of what you were claiming based on what you claimed initially. It would'nt seem reasonable now to go back with a large interest claim.

 

My thought exactly, i had this conversation with someone else on my Capital One thread.

 

Thanks will get this filed today, now hangover is a distant memory, from all the festivities. Hope you had a good one and thanks.

 

Its not a lot of money now following the refund but why should I let them off it. Its MINE!!!!

 

Tanz

[TANZARELLI]

Hi all,

 

Now darfted a slightly lengthy POC to use with my re-claim. Any thoughts welcomed. I am using N1 this time to to complexities that have been caused by my mistake and their partial payment of £750. I think its ok so hear goes.

 

Particulars of Claim ******* V’s Lloyds TSB Bank PLC

1. The Claimant has an account ******** ("the Account") with the Defendant which was opened on or around September 2003

2. During the period in which the Account has been operating the Defendant debited numerous charges to the Account in respect of purported breaches of contract on the part of the Claimant and also charged interest on the charges once applied. The Claimant understands that the Defendant contends that the charges were debited in accordance with the terms of the contract between itself and the Claimant.

 

3. A claim was previously made on the 12 December 2006, using Money Claim Online (Claim Number 6QZ*****), for charges totaling £823 and interest at 8% totaling £95.93, plus £80 court fee. This claim was suspended by MCOL due to a Technical Error made by the Claimant as he mistakenly added the Claimants name as being Lloyds TSB Bank PLC and not himself. The Claimant was advised to make another claim using MCOL and then email the Customer Help Desk, when a new claim number was issued, the £80 fee would then be refunded to the Claimant by MCOL. However the Claimant decided due to the changes with the claim he would use an N1 claim form and file at his local County Court. Also during the time that the claim was suspended the Defendant refunded some of the charges to the Claimant on the 20th December 2006, to the value of £750.00. The Claimant has written to the Defendant on 21st December 2006 to thank him for this payment but, that it is only accepted as a partial settlement payment, the Claimant also stated that he would continue to claim for the remaining balance outstanding. An original Schedule of Claim for Charges is attached, as well as an amended Schedule of Claim for Charges. The Claimant states that in his amended Schedule of Claim for Charges, he has taken the £750 payment as partial settlement and divided this by the total number of charges, which gave the Claimant a figure of £30. This figure was then deducted by the Claimant from each of the individual charge amounts, to give an amended outstanding balance. The interest claimed is at the statutory rate of 8% per annum and is claimed up to the date when the Defendant made his partial refund payment to the Claimant on the 20th December 2006, and continues at a daily rate of £0.02 until full settlement is reached.

An amended Schedule of Claim for Charges is attached to these Particulars of Claim.

The Defendant will be sent an amended Schedule of Claim for Charges.

4. The Claimant contends that:

a) The charges debited to the Account are punitive in nature; are not a genuine pre-estimate of cost incurred by the Defendant; exceed any alleged actual loss to the Defendant in respect of any breaches of contract on the part of the Claimant; and are not intended to represent or related to any alleged actual loss, but instead unduly enrich the Defendant which exercises the contractual term in respect of such charges with a view to profit.

b) The contractual provision that permits the Defendant to levy such charges is unenforceable by virtue of the Unfair Contract Terms in Consumer Contracts Regulations (1999), the Unfair Contract Terms Act 1977 and the common law.

 

5. Accordingly the Claimant claims:

a) the return of the amounts debited in respect of charges in the sum of £73.00 and any interest charged thereon;

b) interest pursuant of s 69 of the County Courts Act 1984 £96.74, continuing at 8% until judgment or settlement at a daily rate of £0.02, the Defendant is aware of all details as a list of charges has already been supplied, another amended copy will be sent;

c) Court costs.

 

Statement of Truth

The Claimant believes that the facts stated in these Particulars of Claim are true.

Signed Date

Any thoughts

Tanz

[TANZARELLI]

Right just off to Court to re-file this. 3 copies made, and due to the claim amount now being reduced court fee only £30.

 

Happy days

 

Tanz

[TANZARELLI]

Right just back from court, explained the previous situation to the court desk clerk, and i think it confused her, she ended up askin gif all the info was in the POC and Schedule of Claim, to which I replied of course she said "because the judge may want to see it, if it gets that far." to which I smiled, and thought doubt it very much.

 

Will pm mod claim number when the notice of issue comes in.

 

Bloody chore this has been just because of a silly Technical Error, as mentioned above. Will take more time next time. Also will be doing all future claims using an N1 as I much prefer this to MCOL, less chances of mistakes and more room. Oh well you learn from these sorts of things, don't you.

 

Tanz

[TANZARELLI]

Right now I am peed off.

 

Spoke to MCOL helpline the other week (who I have always comented on how helpful they are) and was told that due to my claim being suspended I would just need to re-file and then when I had a new claim number email the customer service help desk stating the new and old claim numbers. They would then refund me my other £80 fee.

 

Happy days I thought.

 

Anyway as those of you who have been reading my thread will know I have had to re-do my PoC and Schedule of Claim for charges. This has meant it has become to big for the space allowed on the MCOL site, so I decided to use an N1.

 

I thought well i will ring the MCOL help desk just to tell them that I have not yet been issued a new claim number as filed with local county court and haven't recieved notice of issue yet with this on.

 

The bloke said that they could not now refund the £80 fee as MCOL is a seperat entity. (HMCS still is it not?). I then explained a few point to him and he went to check, and came back and said i'm not sure if you will get this refunded but you can try emailing the help desk.

 

This was the email sent:

 

I am writing with regards to a previous claim which was suspended due to a technical error by myself. The Claim Number is 6QZ*****. My name is ****************** and I was told that my claim was suspended on 12/12/2006 due to the fact that I had entered the Defendants name in the Claimants section.

I realised this when I checked the claim status online towards the end of Dec 2006.

I had no notification from the court as to this fact.

I telephoned the MCOL helpdesk soon after realising what had happened and was informed that I would be refunded this money and all I had to do was to email the customer helpline to give them the my new claim number and also inform them of the old one.

During the time when my claim was suspended I received a partial payment from the Defendant which was paid into my account on 20th Dec 2006 of £750. This created lots of additional complications with my re-filing of my claim. As the schedule of claim for charges had to be amended, and so did the Particulars of Claim (POC). This meant that my POC, grew in size as I had to inform the courts of changes I had made and problems I had encountered, as well as partial payments etc from the defendant. So unfortunately there was not possible way I would have been able to fit all this information into the space for POC on MCOL. This has meant I had to use an N1 form which was submitted to my local county court in Worcester.

I am requesting that you refund me the £80 fee as my claim now has reduced in total to under £300 so the fee I’ve had to pay was £30. I don't need the MCOL service anymore, and have not really had much of a service so far as it was automatically suspended following submission. I request the £80 fee to be sent to me in a cheque made payable to ************, I live at **********************************************************************************************************************************

Also please note that I was told that all I had to do was to file a new claim and email the new claim number as well as the old claim number. I was never told that I had to re-use MCOL to enable a refund.

I look forward to a positive response.

Regards

 

 

This is the relpy I got back:

 

Thank you for using the Money Claim Online (MCOL) customer service emailaccount. Where your email is a general query we aim to reply with 24 hours (duringnormal office hours). Where you have made a specific request, it will beprocessed within 5 working days, as per current Money Claim Online targets. If you have requested a withdrawal of a claim prior to issue it will belooked at as a matter of priority. Where it is necessary to refer your claim to a District Judge fordirections, please allow 3-4 weeks for a response. This message is automatically generated. Please do not reply to thismessage. Thank you. Any thoughts on this as I don't want to have to file a claim to MCOL to try and get this back, but I will if I have too, that will be a first.Tanz

[TANZARELLI]

Update on MCOL fee refund saga just recieved this via email:

 

Thank you for your email - I have forwarded your request to the fees department where a decision will be made by a senior Manager

regards

Kim Trivett

Money Claim Online

Tel 08456015935

Fax 08456015889

[TANZARELLI]

Just recieved this so it looks like I will be getting my £80 refund after all, so no claim going in against MCOL now. lol

 

Dear Sir,

Thank you for your e-mail. Please inform us when you have received your new claim number, and send your refund request together with a copy of the new case details, which can be obtained from Worcester County Court. Your request will then be passed to the relevant manager for authorisation.

David Brown

Administrative Officer

Money Claim Online

T: 0845 6015935

F: 0845 6015889

[TANZARELLI]

Recieved Notice of Issue

 

Re claim against Lloyds TSB. Deemed served on 13th Jan 07 and they now have until 29th Jan to reply.

 

Sorted at last.

 

Tanz

[TANZARELLI]

Just recieved £80 refund from MCOL for my suspended claim. Happy days.

[photoman]

Just subscribing

[TANZARELLI]

Just subscribing

 

Pleasure to have you PM.

[TANZARELLI]

4 days until Lloyds TSB need to acknowledge by, no doubt they will, another waste of the courts time and mine and an abuse of the process. They have until 29th Jan.

[Pondfish]

Hi Tanz,

Just subscribing, interested to see how you are doing. you are just waiting for some news i see

Glad to see you got your money back from MCOL OK - happy days indeed.

[TANZARELLI]

Just recieved an Acknowledgement of Service from the court for my LTSB claim from [problem].

 

In another envelope recieved the Notice that a Defence has been filed and the AQ. Must have had a back log.

[TANZARELLI]

Defence reads:

• The defendant Lloyds TSB Bank plc (the Bank) is a Bank whose registered office is 25 Gresham Street, London, EC2V 7HN. It is admitted that the Claimant has been a customer of the Bank at all material times.
  
• By opening an account with the Bank, the customer enters into a commercial arrangement with the bank for the provision of banking services. The Bank is entitled, as part of that arrangement, to charge for those services. At account opening a customer is provided with details of the Banks charges, currently in a leaflet a guide to our banking charges. By using the account, the customer acknowledges that the charges are incorporated into the contract. For personal customers, a number of services are provided free, notwithstanding that they are an expense to the Bank. Such services presently include, but are not limited to, providing; Cheques, Bank Statements, the facility to make payments by direct debit and standing order, debit cards, ATMs (cash machines).
  
• By maintaining the account in credit, or within any limit agreed by the Bank, the customer may avoid most if not all charges. If the customer fails to ensure that there are sufficient cleared funds in the account to cover payments, whether by cheque, debit card, standing order or direct debit, the customer makes a request to the bank for a payment to be made from the Banks own funds. If the Bank makes a payment, or returns a payment, it provides a service as specified in the leaflet and makes a charge in accordance with the terms of the contract. On page 1 of the leaflet, the Bank explains that “there are normally no charges for everyday banking at Lloyds TSB when your account is in credit. When you use an agreed overdraft, there is no monthly fee and we only charge interest on the amount you are overdrawn each day. Where you go overdrawn without an agreement or where you use a special service, such as a copy statement, we will make a charge. This guide explains how these charges work, and when they apply. If you want to use a service that we haven’t listed, we’ll tell you the cost of that service before you give us the go-ahead”.
  
• There is no breach of contract; the charge cannot therefore be a penalty, consequently there is no requirement that the charge be a pre-estimate of the Bank’s Loss.
  
• The customer is given advance warning of charges being imposed; statements show the charges, if any, the customer has incurred during the course of a month, and which will appear as debits on the following month’s statement. Customers are warned by letter when they go overdrawn or over their agreed limit without arrangement with the Bank. If the customer fails to remedy the position, and payments such as standing orders and direct debits are refused then again the customer is warned by letter.
  
• The charges are fair and reasonable, and it is denied that they are unlawful.
  
• The customer is notified of the charges in plain intelligible language at the conclusion of the contract, and on each monthly statement. The charge are terms which relate to the price payable by the customer for a service provided by the Bank, and pursuant to Regulation 6 of the Unfair Terms in Consumer Contracts Regulations 1999, are not subject to the assessment of fairness.
  
• In the premises:

8.1 The charges are for banking services, and are not damages nor a penalty;

8.2 The Bank is entitled by contract to impose the charges, which are fair and reasonable;

8.3 It is denied that the charges are unlawful or contravene any statute or regulation.

9. The Claimant’s claim is denied in its entirety. It is further denied that the Claimant is entitled to the sum claimed or to any sum from the Bank (we’ll see then, wont we?)

[TANZARELLI]

Oh forgot to mention AQ due in no later than 15 Feb 07. Gonna whack the draft order to it and happy days.

[flower19]

Hi everyone

 

For all of you who have already had the experience of going through Lloyds bank statements:

 

Is a "UNAUTH' D. BORR FEE" the same as a "O/DRAFT EXCESS FEE"?

 

I have the first on my statements back IN 2001 and am notsure if this is actually a charge that can be claimed.

 

Thank you all

[photoman]

Hi everyone

 

For all of you who have already had the experience of going through Lloyds bank statements:

 

Is a "UNAUTH' D. BORR FEE" the same as a "O/DRAFT EXCESS FEE"?

 

I have the first on my statements back IN 2001 and am notsure if this is actually a charge that can be claimed.

 

Thank you all

 

IMO........If it looks like a penalty, sounds like a penalty, and barks like a penalty........it's a penalty.

Both the terms are pretty much the same thing. Just that in one instance you may have had some form of overdraft facility agreed, and in the other instance you maybe didn't. Regardless, they are both excessive charges for simply telling you you had gone over whatever limit you had agreed, and so subject to reclaim.

[flower19]

Yes photoman, I think you are right.

 

Thank you for your post.

[GaryH]

Defence reads:

 

• The defendant Lloyds TSB Bank plc (the Bank) is a Bank whose registered office is 25 Gresham Street, London, EC2V 7HN. It is admitted that the Claimant has been a customer of the Bank at all material times.
  
• By opening an account with the Bank, the customer enters into a commercial arrangement with the bank for the provision of banking services. The Bank is entitled, as part of that arrangement, to charge for those services. At account opening a customer is provided with details of the Banks charges, currently in a leaflet a guide to our banking charges. By using the account, the customer acknowledges that the charges are incorporated into the contract. For personal customers, a number of services are provided free, notwithstanding that they are an expense to the Bank. Such services presently include, but are not limited to, providing; Cheques, Bank Statements, the facility to make payments by direct debit and standing order, debit cards, ATMs (cash machines).
  
• By maintaining the account in credit, or within any limit agreed by the Bank, the customer may avoid most if not all charges. If the customer fails to ensure that there are sufficient cleared funds in the account to cover payments, whether by cheque, debit card, standing order or direct debit, the customer makes a request to the bank for a payment to be made from the Banks own funds. If the Bank makes a payment, or returns a payment, it provides a service as specified in the leaflet and makes a charge in accordance with the terms of the contract. On page 1 of the leaflet, the Bank explains that “there are normally no charges for everyday banking at Lloyds TSB when your account is in credit. When you use an agreed overdraft, there is no monthly fee and we only charge interest on the amount you are overdrawn each day. Where you go overdrawn without an agreement or where you use a special service, such as a copy statement, we will make a charge. This guide explains how these charges work, and when they apply. If you want to use a service that we haven’t listed, we’ll tell you the cost of that service before you give us the go-ahead”.
  
• There is no breach of contract; the charge cannot therefore be a penalty, consequently there is no requirement that the charge be a pre-estimate of the Bank’s Loss.
  
• The customer is given advance warning of charges being imposed; statements show the charges, if any, the customer has incurred during the course of a month, and which will appear as debits on the following month’s statement. Customers are warned by letter when they go overdrawn or over their agreed limit without arrangement with the Bank. If the customer fails to remedy the position, and payments such as standing orders and direct debits are refused then again the customer is warned by letter.
  
• The charges are fair and reasonable, and it is denied that they are unlawful.
  
• The customer is notified of the charges in plain intelligible language at the conclusion of the contract, and on each monthly statement. The charge are terms which relate to the price payable by the customer for a service provided by the Bank, and pursuant to Regulation 6 of the Unfair Terms in Consumer Contracts Regulations 1999, are not subject to the assessment of fairness.
  
• In the premises:

8.1 The charges are for banking services, and are not damages nor a penalty;

8.2 The Bank is entitled by contract to impose the charges, which are fair and reasonable;

8.3 It is denied that the charges are unlawful or contravene any statute or regulation.

9. The Claimant’s claim is denied in its entirety. It is further denied that the Claimant is entitled to the sum claimed or to any sum from the Bank (we’ll see then, wont we?)

Yawn. You'd think they'd have at least attempted to tweak it a little bit by now would'nt you?