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Dismissed for Gross Misconduct after Discrimination & Victimisation


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15 hours ago, Gopio said:

So bring out reasons why I think the outcome was wrong, ask for raw message and server logs of the email, state that it is too tenuous to end my livelihood and career based on an anonymous external email which I did not send, provide any new evidence and information and evidence which I do not think was considered properly as part of the original investigation, ask for a reinvestigation.

 

 

The rest of your post is way out of my league. 

 

 The Raw Message and Server Logs will give you the start of a path of investigation. Those will initially only provide the originating server and how they arrived at your Org.'s server. This will probably be the whole investigation carried out by the Cybersecurity dept., although I am worried that they say they were unable to find the source of the e-mail. This could just be a misunderstanding on my part of what they did. It could mean they "could not find the headers to see the originating servers" and rely only on the From Address or "they could not identify the physical person that sent it".

 

Primer on Headers What is an E-mail Header? (whatismyipaddress.com)

 

You will need these details. The Headers' first entry will also provide the Message Identification, dates and times, physical servers, etc. The information from there will be needed by the service provider to identify the originating connection and the IP address assigned at that time. These won't be in the headers (depending on the mail provider). Suppose it was a free e-mail account that was associated with a Broadband Provider. It may identify the originator's address or at least where they were at that time. This could be a device or the router at the address.

 

As long as the mail's originator did nothing to cover their tracks, the provider will need some type of docket to reveal these details. You would need to go through legal channels, either through a lawyer or the police, for this. This e-mail isn't a prank that they should shrug off. IMHO your org should also be taking steps to report this to the police or other regulatory body that has powers to access this information. 

 

Trying to keep this as brief as can be in an internet forum with no warranty etc. Let's say, for argument's sake, this other person wrote the mail, or their friend(s), whether, from home or work, there are digital footprints.

  1. Other person does it from home: Connection details are logged at Mail provider of which "router" connected, possibly which device can be traced directly to them.
  2. From a friend at home: same as (1) but at least prove it was not you.
  3. If either (1) or (2) did it from work, then the same information is logged at the Mail Provider, this time with your Org.s IP Address. Depending on your org's policy for logging all access requests, it may also log which machine connected to outside, the INTERNAL IP address, and possibly the User who initiated the connection. This may be provided at the your org's firewall level on the link coming coming in/going out of the org.
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Eddie - I'm sure you mean well but I'm afraid you may be in danger of leading the OP down the garden path?

 

If his employer has already hit a brick wall in terms of tracing the alleged email, then I doubt very much that the OP is going to persuade them to go to the lengths you seem to be suggesting.  The employer will only put enough effort into tracing it as they see worthwhile.

 

And I'm afraid that if the OP does attempt to do that then they will end up just stretching their employer's patience and tolerance yet further.

 

The OP really just needs to stick to the basic points and argument as outlined at #16 and #21

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I would also echo advice already given that you ought to consider getting legal advice from your trade union or from any insurance policies you have that include legal cover.  Or you could just pay for legal advice, but I would see that as a last resort only.

 

I think you've already said that you are in a union but that they have not been helpful (or words to that effect).  I'm not sure what you mean by that, but if you mean you have asked them for legal advice and they have refused, I would be concerned that that means they don't think you have a winnable argument.

 

But if you mean that your union is supporting you but just not (in your opinion) doing a very good job, be aware that if they learn you are getting legal advice from another source*, they will most likely withdraw their support.

 

*You have mentioned consulting a solicitor.

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Hi Manxman, I am sure you meant well too.

 

The op mentioned getting the raw message on the back of initial advice given up top, about how to trace what seems to be a key issue.

 

They mentioned they may be going to do this, which would mean a bigger disservice to leave them considering asking for it, without knowing how to get it and how to use it; that it isn't a magical panacea and they would need external assistance to access the final info.

 

 

 

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I suspect (although I may be wrong) that the OP does not have the level of access to the email in question that would be necessary to allow him to attempt to trace it back to its origin.

 

And having already failed to trace it back I don't think think the employer is likely to waste any more resource on it.  Given the history outlined in the opening post I think they could well conclude it was not worth the effort to investigate further.

 

Remember, the employer does not have to establish any misconduct (or whatever) beyond reasonable doubt, they just need to reach a decision that is reasonable to come to given the evidence in front of them.

 

 

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Thanks for all your input. Again, in relation to the email the reason why they believe on the balance of probabilities that it came from me was because of the timing in which it was sent (i.e. a few hours after we had our altercation), some of the 'content matter' e.g. I knew the complainant was undertaking an academic course for a qualification, and the claimant's previous history of submitting harassment allegations against her former partner, that it's 'not credible' the complainant would send this email to herself in order to get someone else into trouble and in the process 'incriminate herself' as well as not using her own name in the email ID.

 

I have evidence of sending an internal email to her congratulating her for getting onto the academic course and wishing that she does well on it, as well as evidence dating back about two years where we're both talking about her intention to apply for this course and I'm motivating her to do so etc. The sender of the anonymous email is stating that they will 'expose the manner in which she got her promotion and that as a result she will lose her job and be kicked off this academic course'.

 

I have no reason or motivation to send her such an email over a minor altercation with this person. I strongly believe this person has some serious mental health or personality issues due to her actions, statements and behaviour e.g. when talking to a former team mate of her the team mate said that the complainant had called the police on her bf over something minor (which the complainant admitted herself) and then came into work the next day 'bragging' about it?

 

The complainant stated in her grievance how I had been harassing her for several years and provided a specific time frame too, yet in my defence I'm showing them that during this time she's sending me emails asking me to go on lunch & breaks with her, seeking my attention when she's bored. She stated during the investigation that she blocked me on a social media app because she felt 'uncomfortable' around me, yet I'd provided evidence whereby a few days after the social media blocking, she's initiating contact with me (through internal communications) and attempting to converse with me - the cogency of the complainant's narrative is so weak! Yet despite providing all the evidence in my defence to rebuke her allegations of harassment, and the investigators agreeing that there was no harassment during the time period which she claimed, when it comes to this specific email they've believed her allegation that it was me who sent it? How does that possibly make sense?!

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That's why I suggested asking for it.

 

He would have to ask for it, and if included as part of any evidence,  it should include the headers, which is the full message. More folks have to be aware of this.

 

I dont think they investigated, the IT failed to advise correctly. If there is malicious communications going on, and you have the evidence and ignore it, you leave the org open. 

 

The OP mentioned a malicious email and I offered advice on how to help find out who possibly sent it, not on who should do what in relation to any meetings, therefore speculation there is irrelevant and is muddying the waters by intimating it is advice and employers may be upset about

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For my appeal I'm also intending to submit a psychiatrist report which confirms I have generalised anxiety disorder (GAD). Some of my symptoms of this are anger, frustration, irritability. I had stated that when questioned about the anonymous email I don't believe I gave an 'evasive' answer but an irritated and frustrated answer that was due to external stimuli triggering me at the time including the fact that I'm being contacted by HR on my personal email (whilst I'm meant to be on an unpaid career break), two months after our initial meeting, questioning me about this email asking me for my thoughts and comments.

 

I have been going absolutely mental since last February. They've dragged out both mines and her investigations for over a year, throughout my entire unpaid career leave only to not uphold my harassment complainant against hers despite providing strong evidence (e.g. a direct communication from me to her stating that I did not appreciate certain things she'd said and done which I thought was inappropriate and left me feeling uncomfortable, upset and angry), whilst upholding her complaint against me in order to take me to the chopping block. They had this planned and prejudged right from the start.

 

I've been under such a prolong period of stress and anxiety I honestly think I've got undected symptoms of yet another disorder - Oppositional Defiant Disorder (ODD) hence why I'm challenging these lot and the way they're doing things, subject access requests, FOIA, questioning their procedures, competency, training, integrity, fairness, internal audits, discrimination, victimisation. I don't have any medical evidence of the ODD I only came across this recently and kinda 'self-diagnosed' based on online information (I use to be a psychology student and always had an interest in psychology I could still remember the lesson where my teacher said "you shouldn't ever self-diagnose...")

 

This is all just so crazy.

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14 minutes ago, Gopio said:

Thanks for all your input. Again, in relation to the email the reason why they believe on the balance of probabilities that it came from me was because of the timing in which it was sent (i.e. a few hours after we had our altercation), some of the 'content matter' e.g 

 

As a purely information post, and not influencing if you should or should not say anything

 

One information source in the headers would be the date and time it was physically sent. . Could you provide info to anyone in the future that may be interested, of your whereabouts then that may show it was impossible for you to do so.

 

Others advice on the disciplinary are more relevant, and it would be too late to do this now, but it may clear your name, for your own personal honour, in a police investigation if you were to report it outwith these proceedings.

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Gopio - you said before that you were a member of a union but that they hadn't been much help.

 

Can I ask if you have formally asked the union for advice and support in this matter, and if so, what have they said?

 

I ask because your union will almost always be better placed to advise you in a dispute with your employer rather than random people on the internet.  They will know you better than anyone here and they will certainly know your employer better than we do.  Paying union subs but not using them in a situation like this is a bit daft.

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Posted (edited)

My rep had been accompanying me to the the disciplinary hearing and the outcome of that hearing. Before then I was doing everything myself. The union itself had been dealing with internal industrial action recently and also due to how late I'd brought it to their attention, they weren't able to offer legal advice through their internal or subcontracted legal sources in time before the disciplinary hearing. I know leaving it late was my fault. But I was also a bit apprehensive due to using them last time prior to my ET claim, on one occassion the rep I was liasing with at the time when I was talking about the Equality Act etc and said the words 'protected characteristic', he remarked to me; "what's a protected characteristic?" 😐 it rang an alarm bell for me at the time for a split sec but I didn't chase it up. On that previous occasion their legal team reviewed my evidence and said that in their opinion I don't have more than 50% chance of succeeding, hence why I was at the ET by myself and represented myself.

 

This time round another different rep stated that this is the wrong union for me due to the sector I'm in and that I should be with a union like the GMB instead (I had joined the right union at the time because during my previous experience even though it was the same org, the department I was in and the nature of the role I was carrying out fell more into their territory). I've only utilised their 'service' at the disciplinary hearing mostly for the moral support to be honest because my mental health and morale has just been deteriorating.

 

To be honest I feel some of you random strangers on the internet have been a bit more helpful than the union in regards to this matter, some of you have explained technical IT details about the email and tracing etc, others have commented on the tactic of 'knitting'.

 

I will be speaking to a solicitor tomorrow and also a friend of mine has said a relative of his who is an experienced HR manager at a big organisation (different sector from what I 'was' in) will get in touch with me, so hopefully I can get some useful insight from her on how to best approach and deal with the appeal.

 

 

 

Edited by Gopio
Typo
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did you manage to find a solicitor ?

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Never assume anyone on the internet is who they say they are. Only rely on advice from insured professionals you have paid for!

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  • 2 weeks later...
Posted (edited)

I know this post isn't useful and I shouldn't be posting it, but I can't help but feel the OP is hopelessly naive about their future here.

 

In my layman's view, the OP had a target on their back way before this harassment complaint raised its head. Remember when you said this:

 

Quote

Please also bear in mind that I am someone who had taken this organisation to an Employment Tribunal before and then withdrew after settling. I am also someone that recently has queried their internal HR investigation processes, manuals, guides, training for those carrying out investigations etc. I've also made a protected disclosure in relation to HR and non-HR personnel who I sincerely believe are breaching the Equality Act by discriminating and victimising. I am exposing certain senior people in this organisation and calling out their BS so unless I'm being seriously paranoid I believe that all of them are colluding to cover up their stink and get rid of me.

 

You were involved in all that BEFORE all of this harassment stuff came up! You can't honestly, reasonably, believe you have a long-term career here? 

Edited by theberengersniper
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I haven't said so previously in this thread, but I'm inclined to agree with theberengersniper.  I don't understand how the OP sees any future for themselves with this public sector employer.

 

And not only does he seem to have had a target on his back for some time, but he seems to have been instrumental himself in painting it there.

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Posted (edited)
36 minutes ago, Manxman in exile said:

 

but he seems to have been instrumental himself in painting it there.


problem is;

 

if you aren’t right, OP will likely abreact to your post.

if you are right OP will likely abreact to your post, (especially if the OP exhibits behaviour compatible with their self-diagnosis of ‘ODD’.)

[I’m not taking a position on which it feels like to me, BTW, just posting that neither form part of a ‘win/win’ scenario]

 

OP: you’ve said how you want to keep working there. Are you open to all replies, including ones that might suggest that isn’t a realistic or optimal outcome, or would you prefer only replies that focus on getting you reinstated?

Edited by BazzaS
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Hi BazzaS

 

Sorry if my post #39 may not be seen to be particularly helpful to the OP in the circumstances in which they find themeslves.

 

My comment on theberengersniper's post was offered in good faith, but as it probably doesn't contribute significantly to the overall direction of the thread,  I have no problem with it being edited or removed if the site team think it more appropriate to do so (in the interests of the OP).

 

PS - I would have messaged you but that does not appear to be available to me...

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I’m not disagreeing with you (& I’m not site team, that’s for sure!).

 

I’m hoping for some guidance from the OP on if they want answers that don’t necessarily agree with them / tell them what they seem to want to hear.

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Posted (edited)

The appeal had to be lodged by last Friday, 9th.

 

I think the advice ship has sailed.

 

Happy to support appeal process/ outcome if there is one; I suspect more opinions are not helpful at this stage tho.

Edited by Emmzzi
  • Like 1

Never assume anyone on the internet is who they say they are. Only rely on advice from insured professionals you have paid for!

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