Lloyds chasing Personal Guarantee.

[MOSS 41]

HI, 

 

another one ive been keeping at bay since last march 2020

 

lloyds are demanding a payment under a guarantee - for a loan and an overdraft

 

1) overdraft of 5000 was in existence before guarantee etc, so as i see it guarantees cant be given in past consideration - i will fight them to the end on this 

2) loan was at same time of guarantee doc, its presented as a short form guarantee, the word 'deed' is only used near a signatory line in tiny writing- you do not know its a deed unless you see that tiny writing 

 

ive complained over the year, its not a deed doesnt satisfy points of a deed, and received date is faded out completely 

asked many times for proof when it was 'delivered'

 

now they finally come back after many months, saying we recognise as a deed, because of that tiny writing

it doesnt need to be delivered date of signature is enough 

 

where do i go from here 

i can definitely argue about past consideration , cant guarantee something already in existence - or are overdrafts different.

 

 

[AndyOrch]

Topic moved to Lloyds Bank  forum.

[BankFodder]

You are quite right about past consideration – but on the other hand, are they able to point to something new which they did in return for this guarantee. For instance, can they say that they were about to call in the loan but the provision by you of the guarantee change their mind.

I suggest that you send them an SAR.

Also, maybe you can give us a better idea of what the story is all about. You are pretty scant on detail

[MOSS 41]

we folded a business last march, so obviously over the last year ive dealt with the fallout.

 

ive been tooing and froing with lloyds for a year

overdraft on liquidation 5k

loan on liquidation balance 14k

 

honestly dont remember giving guarantee, but this was when the manager had stole all our money and i was running around like a headless chicken.

i could have sworn, we didt (i tend to remember when i do it)

 

they eventually provided poor copy of 'short form guarantee' 

its dated well after overdraft- so im definitely going to argue past consideration no consideration, if i can 

was going to use the usual defences for guarantee to loan-

 

however they are saying its a deed- its not called a deed or any words used to that affect at all, just 

signed as deed above signature line, they cant tell me when it was sent back or delivered

 

i really dont see it as a deed, or didnt realise it was

 

i need to come up with a reason why its not legally valid or organise a payment plan, as i dint know how much longer i can keep them at bay.

 

my husband for sure can use para 49 of the etridge principles to set aside his signature as unenforceable,

but i dont know what my options are

 

its a tiny thing - 3 pages long thing 

[BankFodder]

Is it witnessed?

I'm not sure that the deed needs consideration to make it binding.

[MOSS 41]

yes - i got an employee to sign both boxes and took it home for my husband to sign later , as he was working away

my problem is i had no intention to sign a 'deed' 

 

its called a short form guarantee , it refers to itself as guarantee and agreement though out, literally only deed word 

is 'signed as a deed' in writing 2mm high above signature line

 

 

my only pick up on its construction is the 'bank' is defined as such:

 

'Bank'  'inlcudes any person or entity to whom all or any of the rights of the bank under this guarantee are transferred.'

 

 

shouldnt is say 'bank'

 -lloyds pox box xx company no xxxx etc , 

 

its almost too broad, saying we guarantee payment to any person or entity to whom all or any of the rights of the 'bank under' this guarantee are transferred.

 

who has the rights of the 'bank under the guarantee

 

who are we supposed to be guaranteeing ? no narrative is given anywhere you are guaranteeing 

lloyds bank 

 

this definition has got me stumped

 

 

[BankFodder]

Firstly, the witness signature is meant to witness the signature of the guarantor.

You are saying that the witness signature was put in place before the guarantor signed. Of course this would invalidate the document as a deed – but on the other hand, you presented the guarantee as properly executed.
So if you use this argument, I think that they would be right to suggest that you had executed a fraudulent deed.

Although the word "deed" was apparently very small, I think you would be hard pressed.

Because it is a deed, I don't think there is a need for consideration to support it.

I'm sorry to say that I think you may be clutching at straws

[AndyOrch]

Topic open

[MOSS 41]

hi 

as way of update- after speaking to solicitor way back when

it was highlighted that banks have to follow certain procedures to take director guarantees of they are not enforceable

it is documented at lloyds a whole separate process

 

i asked for evidence this separate process was undertaken- 

which it wasn't seemingly - well they ignore my requests for this evidence

i tried to SAR them - nothing for two years said i not entitiled 

 

they also wont or cant provide the loan contract on which the guarantee was suppose to support- a guarantee can apparently only co exist- no contract for the company to repay - no requirement for an alleged guarantor

 

so nothing for ages- finally today get a response to SAR- still no contract for the business loan and nothing but copies of letters they have sent me over three years

many times says legal action starting- but nothing ever goes forward as dont provide docs i ask for 

loan contract 

legal advice certification and 

evidence of required guarantor procedures by the bank etc

 

but digging through this SAR response i was intrigued by one copy letter

its dated june 2021

from lloyds to a DWF solicitors , instructing on them on a fixed fee to obtain possession of the above security for the loan (our home address) and let us know when its done

 

1)its not a secured debt at all - just an unsecured business loan-

2)never ever heard from these people supposedly instructed

 

over two years depsite repeated PAPLOC's and threats, they still dont seem to take this forward or have i ever heard from a team of solicitors

 

 

stuck in limbo

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[dx100uk]

when was this original loan supposedly taken out?

 

dx

 

[MOSS 41]

 nov 2018- business went into liquidation march 2020

[MOSS 41]

with further analysis of my massive SAR,

i've received the formal demands to the business made in march 2020 for overdraft and fixed loan

 

i was wondering if someone could give me some insight on the following

 

a)these are default notices even though not titled as so? 

 

b)a default notice is required to call upon an alleged guarantor?

 

c)if there is no loan agreement they have confirmed as lost, then using the act of default as non/missed payments would be hard to prove as no dates, terms, obligations to repay evidenced as no contract to read

 

d)a default notice would have to be submitted in a court case, to prove an act of default? if so why has lloyds marked all these formal demands as without prejudice, meaning they would be inadmissable

 

any  ideas, thanks if anyone can help

[dx100uk]

a) have to see them

b) yes to the guarantor

c) no cca = no pay. 

d) proof one was sent.

[MOSS 41]

thankyou

i don't believe director guarantees are covered by CCA? are they ?

 

this is a business contract they have page one and pages 6-10 of an agreement which is just page 1 ) £20k to business name fixed loan to account number xxx, then pages 2-5 lost which holds all details terms , length , payments condition precedent etc

pages 6-10 are generic small print terms and conditions 

 

actual loan contract pages 2-5 they admit is missing and paid me £100 for the inconvenience !

i suppose they do have enough to prove loan exists and was paid

without terms of repayment it seems legally it would  just be seen as an on demand loan, with 6 yr statutory limits starting from drawdown

they also wont provide a statement of account as says it belongs to ltd company and separate legal entity i have no rights too!

 

how would they prove default notice sent if they are unable to produce the notice as without prejudice and inadmissible ?

(it was received by post FYI)

 

With that in mind, here are some examples of when “without prejudice” should not be used:

• Notice letters or letters of demand where one party is asserting certain rights, such as if you are giving a Notice of Dispute or Notice of Intention to Claim for Delay under a standard form construction contract;

[dx100uk]

if it doesn't say consumer credit act then so be it.

 

pers i'd let this run until/unless they ever issue a letter of claim.

[MOSS 41]

i dont know - the SAR shows lots of narrative of wanting a possession order on our house and recent narrative to resubmit to solicitors

 

they discuss in file notes valuing our house on zoopla estimate for hundreds of thousands (300k) more than its worth valued at my Natwest Bank - saying good for money- go straight for possession order.

 

 and being devils advocate 

if they can prove a signed guarantee, which is an all monies guarantee and prove a debt was owed -albeit with limited documentation- it would be a battle i think i need to prepare for 

 

however the SAR has been fruitful

 

they (lloyds ) have to follow a separate underwriting and approvals process to take a directors guarantee, before offering a loan they have not done this - 

 

they simply stapled it behind loan contract at the time without any explanation of proposed transactions,

 

which they apparently have a fiduciary duty to explain (SAR again shows nothing done)- 

 

they have confirmed they never contacted my husband, the second signatory, and nothing to do with business-as a non operational director (apparently they didn't feel they needed to -their written words)

 

But he would be released under Etridge Principles 49 and 87-8 of the Etridge principles

 

they did not obtain certified legal advice which under the principles means they cannot stop his release from liability.

 

i could never stand or pass underwriting (if they had done it) to be a sole guarantor and had no intention to be one, i dont earn any money really- its my husbands 

 

 

[MOSS 41]

I have left this a while ,

so they can respond to my current complaint - non provision of documents ,

no. Provision of communications etc ,

separate underwriting not done 

but also

 

I did offer after pointing out all the issues £3000 in full and final (in formal letter)  as this is taking time and money (over two years already for both parties ) 

And given them 30

days to accept or go ADR instead 

 

so as far as I am concerned -

I await response in writing to both 

complaint and offer 

 

now for the first time in two years they are constantly trying to ring me -

I ignore -

as I want a response in writing- why would they all of a sudden start ringing- ? I’ve nothing to say to them 

 

[MOSS 41]

Lloyds still won’t respond to my complaints or provide documents - so I have started the financial ombudsman complaint as suggested by my solicitor as they are not being forthcoming or acting fair 

 

they still haven’t written back to correspondences -

but phone calls which I don’t answer started again today 

 

why are they ringing instead of responding by mail - I want written answers to my complaint not an informal chat ?