VCS/ELMS Spy car 2*PCN PAPLOC Now Claimform for 1 of them - 'NO STOPPING' BP Station East Midlands airport

[bolmgsr]

I’ve got an appointment for mediation on the 8/6/21 but it says I have to be willing to negotiate on the amount of the claim which I’m not really, what should I do.

 

cheers

[brassnecked]

Mediation is no use in these cases they assume you owe something so the PPC will want something, should always say No to Mediation, you either owe it or not, not pretend its the Old bazaar in Cairo and haggle over what you are going to pay the fleecer's.

[bolmgsr]

Hi,

been sent a date for my hearing via a telephone conference.

I need to prepare a witness statement any advice please or do I just tell it as it happened.

Also it says That this case has been listed with another small claim and if both cases are effective then one case will have to be stood out, I’m not sure what this means but they will let me know no less than 7 days before the hearing.

they are asking VCS to provide additional directions in a contractual claim for breach of parking terms and they have until July to do this .

[honeybee13]

I'm not sure if this is in writing or spoken, but if it's written could you show us a de-personalised copy of it please?

 

HB

[bolmgsr]

Hi thanks for your reply here are the documents

 

Notice of Allocation to the Small.pdf Each party shall deliver to every other party and to the Court office of all documents (including any experts report) on which th 2.pdf

[dx100uk]

bit of a shame simon can have sight of all your WS but has until 3 days before the hearing to produce the digital bundle, i can see him changing stuff to counter your WS.

 

the dual case hearing bit is simply hoping the other case gets dropped or resolved before the court date, if it doesn't yours might be rescheduled.

 

so keep an eye on 25th july and simon paying £25...

 

 

 

[FTMDave]

OK, so you need to prepare your WS.  There is a cracking VCS No Stopping WS in posts 83-84 at  https://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/topic/419312-vcs-pcn-claimform-no-stopping-in-restricted-zone-bristol-airport-claim-dismissed/page/4/#comments

 

Also read here  https://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/topic/419686-vcs-anpr-pcn-paploc-now-claimform-double-dipping-st-marys-gate-retail-park-s1-4qz/page/3/#comments  from post 71 to the end of the thread.

[bolmgsr]

Wow that witness statement is quite a lot to take in, I’ll start with telling my story then look for the relevant parts to fit in and post for you to have a look at. Will it all have to be itemised and exhibited like that is. 
thanks 

[FTMDave]

Yes, it's best to have numbered paragraphs.

 

Points 4, 6, 14 & 15 are no use to you, but the rest can be used almost verbatim.  However, try to take it in and understand the legal arguments about bye-laws, prohibition, not a parking event, etc., as you will have to argue these points if Simon does take you all the way to court.

[brassnecked]

Nutshell is as access roads are covered by Byelaws, and stopping is prohibited, a Parking Event cannot be constructed out of a prohibition, stopping is a Breach of a ByeLaw, so cannot give rise to a Civcil Contract to breach. however, as FTM Dave says study it well

[bolmgsr]

Here is a draft copy of my witness statement id appreciate it if someone could have a look and advise me of any additions or changes that need to be made most is copy and pasted from a previous WS as suggested by FTM Dave with the bits I've added that relate to my case.

Thanks in advance

WS Draft.pdf

[FTMDave]

Well done.  However, the nature of the beast is now to nitpick and try to improve the WS.

 

See what the other regulars think too, then post up a revised version in a few days' time.

 

1.  In (4.1) I think you should be admitting as little as possible to doing what VCS found naughty.  I'm not saying to lie, just leave out bits the court doesn't need to know.  How about "4.1. On the evening of xxxxxxxx at approximately 00:22 , I arrived at East Midlands Airport to pick up my brother in law. I slowed down as I thought I could see him and then stopped on the main road to pick him up. I then drove out of the airport area along the same road I drove in on spending no more than approximately 3 minutes in the airport area.

 

Later I discovered that at 00:23:13 I was issued with a PCN ticket number VCSxxxxxxxx (exhibit 1) contravention reason: 46) stopping in a zone where stopping is prohibited, East Midlands Airport Castle Donnington DE74 2SA. At 00:24:11 (58 seconds later) I was issued with a second PCN, ticket number VCS xxxxxxx. (exhibit 2) contravention reason: 104) stopping to pick up/ drop off in a restricted zone, The Fuel Station EMA Castle Donnington DE74 2SA.

 

However, at no time did I enter the fuel station as stated by the claimant, The photos shown in exhibit 2 do not show me in the fuel station. Therefore any reference to my location and signage within the fuel station are irrelevant.

 

2.  I'm not sure the bit about appeals is very relevant, but if you leave it in don't say the PCNs were increased to £160, the whole point is that the extra £60 is Unicorn Food Tax.

 

3.  The bit about asking for a breakdown of costs is irrelevant and needs to go.

 

4.  The next bits about it not being a parking event, driver/keeper, and the fuel station all need to be moved after (4) and to get their own paragraphs.

 

However, the meat of it is there.  Good work.

 

 

[lookinforinfo]

VCS are not noted for their veracity when it comes to completing a WS so can you post it up when you receive it so that we can rubbish it. 

 

Normally I would suggest that you swap "I" for  "the driver" but as you have appealed I assume you have already revealed that you were the driver. 

 

However I have looked at the "contract" that VCS have with Harvest Energy. It is rubbish.

 

First thing is that as land is involved, it should be a Deed and for the deed to be valid it needs a director from both companies to sign and to be witnessed by two other people .  So for a start, VCS have not signed, there are no witnesses and Ian Woodcock is not shown as a director of Harvest Energy.

 

No valid deed -no contract formed.

 

There was no contract offered to you anyway because No Stopping is prohibitive and there can therefore not be a contract between VCS and the motorists. [ As an aside this is an excellent reason for you to claim back the other money you paid. I would  go for breaching your GDPR too since they know they didn't have a contract].

 

https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2006/46/section/44   sub section [2] is what you want to read.

 

This should be the first thing on your WS as that should finish it.

 

I am still trying to work out how a petrol station can survive if motorists aren't allowed to stop there.

. 

[FTMDave]

3 minutes ago, lookinforinfo said:

I am still trying to work out how a petrol station can survive if motorists aren't allowed to stop there.. 

 

[dx100uk]

from their reply to your appeal...

 

Dear 
Re: Parking Charge Notice Number .. - Vehicle: ....
Site: The Fuel Station, EMA Post Code: DE74 2SA

Contravention Date: 10/12/2019

We refer to your appeal in respect of the above Charge Notice (CN) received on 21/12/2019.

Having considered the points you have raised and reviewed our records, we are unable to accept your appeal.

 

Our main reason(s) for this decision are as follows:
The signs within the Fuel Station, clearly state "No Stopping", giving clear notice that the land is private property and that a Charge of £100 will be levied if vehicles do stop.

 

The above detailed vehicle picked up in a zone where both are prohibited and the driver became liable to pay that Charge.

In your appeal you have confirmed to us that on the date in question, you stopped your vehicle in the Fuel Station.

A review of our CCTV evidence has confirmed that on the date in question, your vehicle stopped to collect a passenger in the Fuel Station where restrictions apply.

[FTMDave]

The last two paragraphs especially sink Simon ....

[dx100uk]

no stopping...urm...should the signs not say ...you may not pick up passengers...

 

but how do they know that 5 mins earlier you'd had not already left him at the shop in the garage and was just doing 'shopping' and you went back to get him later.

 

the letter states they have reviewed CCTV footage, then you DEMAND that in your WS.

 

you also need to see where in the contract the landowner states, SPECIFICALLY, that they approve that VCS may review CCTV to discriminate against arriving flight passengers that get picked up outside of their pay to pick-up zone thus losing profit......

 

dx

 

[brassnecked]

Nice GDPR claim in there when Simon is sent packing with that use of CCTV on his admission

 

[bolmgsr]

I’m not jumping the gun but they not only obtained my data from DVLA but also passed it on to Elms legal to harass me and who they have now dumped

[bolmgsr]

Draft copy version 2 of my witness statement, again id appreciate any feedback on what to include or omit

 

 

 

WS version 2.pdf

[FTMDave]

That's great work - well done.

 

From a first quick glance there's nothing "wrong" there - however some of the paragraphs need moving round to make the legal arguments flow more clearly.  If no-one looks in this evening I'll do it tomorrow.

[FTMDave]

OK, I've tweaked things just a little bit (the odd typo, the odd word changed to make it flow better, etc).

 

However, I've moved the paragraphs around and given each section a heading to try to make your legal arguments clearer.  There may be more formal ways to phrase the headings, see what the other regulars think.

 

You'll have to change the exhibit numbers.

 

I've added a paragraph 16 in red saying Simon is claiming £50 legal costs yet he is representing himself (with an extra exhibit).

 

I think paragraph 6 needs to be split into two, RTA and bye-laws, and you need to lay it on thick about the bye-laws.  Indeed give the bye-laws their own section.

 

Apologies if I've knackered the lay-out!

 

However, see what the others think too.

WS version 3.pdf

[brassnecked]

Looks good FTMDave, the expansion of the byelaws argument by illustrating how a breach of byelaw cannot lead to a parking event VCS can claim on would be good.  Incidentally, if this is chucked out, would the invoice paid be reclaimable, as like the second one just thrown out is void and unconscionable, so try to reclaim it?  Thoughts DX FTM?

[lookinforinfo]

I think a serious point is being missed with regards to the deed or contract.

This is from PoFA  2  [1]  giving a breakdown of the descriptions and the one that is important to your case is waht is a relevant contract

 

"relevant contract” means a contract (including a contract arising only when the vehicle was parked on the relevant land) between the driver and a person who is—

 

(a)the owner or occupier of the land; or 

(b) authorised, under or by virtue of arrangements made by the owner or occupier of the land, to enter into a contract with the driver requiring the payment of parking charges in respect of the parking of the vehicle on the land;

 

I am assuming that a contract does exist where a director from VCS has signed but the fact that two witnesses have not signed the document means the deed has not been "validly executed" according to https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2006/46/section/44

 

-and I would include the URL since not all Judges may be aware of contracts and the necessity of correct signatories being present. It follows on from there that as there is no valid contract there can be no contract between VCS and the motorist. 

So even if "no stopping" could form a contract [which it cannot], it is immaterial. There is no valid contract end of.

 

I would then go on to say that a company  completing as many contracts as VCS must know that there is no contract at EMA and so to issue PCNs is bordering on fraudulent.

 

In addition under their CoP they have signed to say that they comply with all Laws and Regulations relating to parking. It calls into question there ability to receive data from the DVLA. As per Lord Neuberger  Parking Eye V Supreme Court

"And, while the Code of Practice is not a contractual document, it is in practice binding on the operator since its existence and observance is a condition of his ability to obtain details of the registered keeper from the DVLA. In assessing the fairness of a term, it cannot be right to ignore the regulatory framework which determines how and in what circumstances it may be enforced".

 

The Judge should throw out the case there and then. It fails one of the first criteria in PoFA. You should be asking for exemplary damages for putting you through all this knowing that they had no contract and no case. And to stop them carrying on the scam.

 

 

 

[brassnecked]

Good point lookedinforinfo, needs incorporating in the WS as is fatal to Simon''s case.