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  • Recommended Topics

What is the difference between a secure tenancy and a regulated tenancy??


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Am looking for some advice, and i know you guys are always helpful

 

My parents moved into a rented accomodation back in the early 80's and have a standard tenancy agreement covered under the 1977 rent act.

 

As a sitting tenant, the landlord did virtually no work to the property, with my parents maintaing when needed. We lost my dad a few years back, and my mum is struggling to maintain. We have had major issues with electrics and drainage which we approached the landlord for with no replies for last 18 months. We did all we could to work with them.

 

I have done as much as i can do, but am aware it is quite unsafe and we managed to get the local council to help. They assessed the property remotely, and sent a list of repairs that the landlord needed to perform within 6 weeks. After tradesman have reviewed the repairs Include:

Removal of an unsafe conservatory

Rewire of entire property - including new mains

Repairing a partially collapsed sewer.

Repair/replace damaged single glazed windows.

Making fire safe

 

The landlords have been in contact and started some works, however - am very aware with mum being on her own, with COPD we need to keep her sheilded.

 

Are the landlords obliged to put her in alternative accomodation while the works are carried out?

What precautions can i make to ensure the tradesman are compliant with COVID-19 regualtions (We have not allowed any internal works to begin as yet)?

Is there an alternative way out of this? Can i approach the landlords asking to move her into a more suitable property considering the works needed (4-5 weeks probable).

Should i seek advice of a property solicitor at this point?

Can they immediately raise the rent to market rate? (I think they/we need to appoint a rent officer) as its quite low at present.

Is there anything we need to be careful of not to break the tenancy rules?

 

 

My parents have been benefiting from the low rent, but have installed central heating, new boilers etc, lots of repairs to drive ways and maintenace. The place is on a fairly large space and they have always maintained the gardens.


Personally, i would prefer to move mum into more suitable accomodation - but she loves this place and i know will struggle to leave.

 

Any tips on how to handle any of the above!

 

Thanks!

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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Might be worth talking to local Council Housing again about options, if your Mother is unable to occupy the house for a period due to essential repairs being required.  But find out from landlord first whether they can confirm in writing if alternative housing is available while the house is undergoing works.  The landlord might not have any other properties available or is unable to offer any alternative housing options due to covid-19. 

 

The landlord can increase the rent but there are rules regarding this.  See https://england.shelter.org.uk/housing_advice/private_renting/rent_increases

 

Guidance about homes being fit for habitation.

 

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/homes-fitness-for-human-habitation-act-2018/guide-for-tenants-homes-fitness-for-human-habitation-act-2018

 

Housing is quite a complex area and you might want to contact Shelter the housing charity, if the local Council Housing cannot assist first.  

 

The work to the house is likely to take months and if  it is started in the next few months, given Covid-19 restrictions (social distancing), your Mother might find herself not able to occupy it over the Winter including the Christmas period.   I suspect many contractors such as electricians have a backlog of work due to the lockdown and when the lockdown is lifted, they will prioritise the work they have already agreed to.  The landlord may therefore struggle to arrange the works, unless they have friends who work for them regularly. 

 

 

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Maybe this is completely wrong – but I would be a bit worried that if your mother moved out to some kind of alternative/temporary accommodation – that the landlord might somehow manipulate the situation so that she never got back

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Bonus77

 

Legal advice is the best way forward, from Shelter, CAB, Solicitor, local law centre, local council housing department.

 

Your mother has a Regulated tenancy "Protected" governed by 1977 rent act, which is the same type of tenancy I have myself.

 

Moving out would be a very bad move don't do it, LL could refuse to move mother back in loosing her rights under 1977 rent act.

 

The links in post #2 are incorrect and cover tenancy under 1988 Housing act , A LL cannot just increase the rent they would have to fill out form RR1 available from VOA office, any rent increase would be very small and Nowhere near market rates.

 

Click on below url.

 

 

http://tiny.cc/n745pz

 

I don't think the Homes (Fitness for Human Habitation) Act 2018 covers a Protected tenancy, this would have to be checked out ?

 

Feel free to ask any more questions

 

Edited by 45002

Please use the quote system, So everyone will know what your referring too, thank you ...

 

 

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The older housing acts should cover the disrepair, the council can do the work and bill the LL if necessary.

Agree that moving out is not a good move, many landlords start work on properties with protected tenancies and then remove staircases, turn of the leccy etc to force the tenant out.

I had a friend who rented  a small flat in central London where the LL decided to revamp the place to force the tenants out. It went to court and the LL got such a slapping that the rents were reduced from £100/wk to £25/wk to go with the non molestation order.

Unusual but it can happen

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  • 2 months later...

Okay, so a little update.

 

We gained some legal advice and had a settlement agreement in place which both us and LL agreed to allowing my mothers right to return when repairs were made. We put a time proviso and LL agreed to cover storage and housing costs should work overrun.

 

So fast forward, work has been done.. but to a shocking standard. 

 

Re-wire was complete, wall chased out but the making good was not to a high standard. Only patched up with filler, and then painted. Other issues include

 

* Paint/dust over the wooden floors

* Holes unfilled from re-wire

* Dust everywhere

* Carpets/Lino in rooms put back badly so bumps everywhere

* Paint overlapping anything/everything

* They left a large amount of building waste outside the property

* Felled trees pushed to the side, not cleared

* Wiring going from internal to outside (Where conservatory previously was) still protruding

 

The list could go on. They have damaged property also. Overall, considering the amount of money we have put toward the upkeep of the property we feel quite agreived)

 

Now, to add to the fun they are introducing some new rules (We have none of these in any form of tenancy agreement. Just an informal email.

 

1) No smoking inside the property (Totally cool with that, as didnt anyway)

2) No decorating without permission or alterations to the structure of the building (Considering the poor standard the house is in, not sure how we can leave it as is decorating wise, but of course wont alter the structure lol)

3) Windows should be opened regularly to air the property (Only window we didnt open much was the bathroom because the only form of heat was provided by a rayburn in the kitchen which has been condemned - but not removed)

4) There will be periodic inspections. 

 

I dont know if these are actionable, but fact is they are things we would be doing normally anyway lol. Only issue i have is with the inspections. Can we refuse this if we believe it to be excessive? As she is a sitting tenant i would have thought we could.

 

Can we re-decorate, i know short hold tenancy you have to ask for permission but am sure it is different for protected tenants. 

 

Any help appreciated, at the moment we are just happy she can get in the house. 

 

 

 

 

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Bonus 77

 

Could you please confirm was there a written agreement signed by both parties and witnessed saying your parent would be moved back in after repairs where finished, also in the agreement did it say what work was going to be carried out and paid for by who, was this agreement in place before your parent moved out ?

 

Is the LL who had the work carried out the Ordinal landlord when tenancy 1st started or LL by sale ?

 

Have your parent ever signed written a TA ?

 

Assuming the property is in E&W, is there a fair rent registered under 1977 Rent act and does it show up online by entering parents postcode in the below link ?

 

http://tiny.cc/n745pz

 

Thank you in advance

 

....

 

Bonus77

 

Sorry, please use this url below

 

https://tinyurl.com/y5z3kfa9

 

For fair rent register, Thanks...

 

 

....

Edited by 45002

Please use the quote system, So everyone will know what your referring too, thank you ...

 

 

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Hi

 

Yes, there was an agreement but it didn’t specify the specifics of the work. Only that the property was going to be re-wired and specifying the dates the property needed to be vacant for, along with confirmation of the right to return upon completion of works plus agreement for reasonable costs should work overrun.

 

the problem is, we did most of the leg work. The landlord barely knows how to use email, and has very poor communication. Mum is quite intimidated by her.

 

The council are insistent the works to make safe are done, but have never visited the property to see the extent. I know now we should have instructed an environmental health surveyor at our own costs but we were hopeful the repairs were done to a good standard.

 

I have seen in some articles about 1977 rent act that we are responsible for inside the house and the land lord for the external building and structure.

 

Its not on the fair rent register, it’s a private let with a signed 1977 rent act standard tenancy agreement back in 1984. Rent has only been increased a handful of times so it’s very low. LL has not indicated a rent increase as yet but know it’s coming.

 

Also to add, the agreement was by email and not witnessed. It was a real rush and had to go with the best I could get with the council pressuring the LL to action repairs the second Covid shielding dates came into play

 

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Im more worried with NO proper written agreement in place when your parents moved out and back in,  that the LL could try and claim your parents No longer have a protected tenancy under 1977 rent and have a assured shorthold tenancy "AST" and charge Full market rent.

 

Can you upload this TA from 1985 in adobe form to forum with personal details blanked out.

 

Assuming the property is in E&W your parents should apply for a fair rent to be registered  ASAP

 

https://tinyurl.com/y4mlmwbx

 

Repairs to property usal come under S11, 1985 Housing act and LL pays when nothing in a TA saying who carrys repairs out, see beloew url

 

https://tinyurl.com/yyzvkyds

 

Could you please answer this question

 

Is the LL who had the work carried out the Ordinal landlord when tenancy 1st started or LL by sale ?

 

 

...

Edited by 45002

Please use the quote system, So everyone will know what your referring too, thank you ...

 

 

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The agreement we had did include the local council throughou. Would that email exchange with terms temporary move not constitute a binding agreement? The legal advice we had just mentioned the LL had to confirm my mum would have the right to return. 
 

We have only ever had tx messages until recently when we insisted at least communication should be by email. The emails are never more than a few words, if they do now expect AST to be in effect they haven’t made any hint at all of this.

 

 

Thanks for the advice, will sign up to fair rent now.

 

No. The original LL passed away, the property now in the hands of one of his children.
 

 

 

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HI again.

 

I think it's going to be and wait see what happens next move by LL, as the local council have been involved hopefully All will be OK !

 

The application for a fair rent to be registered should be pretty straightforward and explained to your parents by The Rent Service or ring them up for advice on the application.

 

Those New terms LL wants impose on your parents can only be done if there is a signed TA, even then LL would have to go to court to enforce the TA.

 

Parents Don't have to sign anything.

 

One point LL does have the right to inspect the property under S11, 1985 Housing act with 48 hrs notice in writing, If LL what's to inspect make sure there someone with them when they do so.

 

I always have someone with me when my LL wants to inspect the property.

 

LL can not just let themselves in, inspections at your parents convenience and not the LL, which bring me to another point.

 

Change the Locks if not already done.

 

Keep CAG posted.

 

  • Thanks 1

Please use the quote system, So everyone will know what your referring too, thank you ...

 

 

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  • 2 weeks later...

Thanks for your replies so far. The saga continues!

 

We were informed the property was already being considered for fair rent assesment. The LL applied for this, and the letter has come through. Just to highlight the top points by number as they show on the application for registration of fair rent that i feel could be contentious.

 

One good thing is they have confirmed the original tenancy started back in 1985 which does confirm our protected tenant status at least.

 

5) Does the tenancy include any other property (Such as garage etc)?

 

LL has answered 'NO' but the property does have a seperate garage (not in great condition), also it did have a conservatory until the LL removed it due to safety reasons (With no intention of replacing)

 

6) What rent do you want the rent officer to register as a fair rent?

 

LL is asking for a rent increase from £260 per month (Which it is currently) to £1000 per month.

I understand that the rent has not been increase for many years, but the house itself is in very poor condition, even after the recent works to make safe (Electric re-wiring, and a very poor job of making good - holes still where previous sockets were, sockets removed altogether, list could go on for some way!)

 

From what i understand, the LL can request a rent well above the traditional market cap because it has not been registered for fair rent in the past. Is that correct? I understand there is a calculator which takes RPI back when tenancy started and as a percentage calculates to today +7.5%. I tried to work it out but wasnt sure i was doing correctly.

 

11a) What repairs are the responsibility of the LL

LL has answered 'None'.

I understand, in older TA the detail would normally be on the agreement itself detailing who is responsible for what. We only have the signed page from the orginal LL and my parents, which from what i understood is all we were given at the time. If i assume the remainder of the agreement was a standard tenancy agreement then there would be no detail of repair responsibility and it would faill under the landlord and tenant act 1985.

That makes sense, as the LL, although registering the fact they have no responsibility has made the effort of attempting to make the outside of the property structurally sound (It still is very much dangerous with even the old concrete slab left by the conservatory having 2ft holes around the sides, with the old electrics hanging off the outside wall (unconnected). Not even mentioning the rubbish they have left clearing the trees to investigate drain issues.

 

11b) What repairs are the responsibility of the tenant?

LL has answered 'General upkeep of the property'

We agree with this, and have more than played our part. It could use decorating in some rooms, but generally the property was kept up with my father repairing as and when required and making significant improvements without changing the structure of the property). It was practically a shell upstairs to begin with.

 

14) During the present tenancy has the tenant carried out improvements or replaced fixtures, fittings or furniture for which he is not responsible under the terms of his tenancy?

LL has answered 'NO'

We would say this is very much incorrect. We have installed gas central heating at our own cost, recently changing the boiler at our cost. We have relayed the driveway (Although not the best job, but it was falling apart). We have fenced the rear of the property, made the garage safe amoung other things.

 

Okay so that was the application.

 

The fair rent officer has been very polite and we are planning to write outlining the items we do not agree with or at least have comment to add and request to discuss the matter.

 

Question 1-  does my mum need to be there? She is very intimidated by the whole process and we are already acting on her behalf. It mentions the LL should be there, which makes my mum very uncomfortable as the LL has a tendancy to upset things, making mean comments, and accusations (I understand there are always 2 sides to a story, but she should be tactful or put it in writing rather than throwing these things at someone older and not in a good position to retaliate).

 

Question 2 - There is a LOT of unfinished work from the re-wire, we have a list of issues that we would like addressed. Should we bring this up before the meeting with the fair rent officer? The council are intending to inspect also, so perhaps just let them spot the issues??

 

Question 3 - There is a genuine worry, that if the council do decide the property is unsafe still that mum will need to find somewhere else at her own cost. Is that something we should be concerned with? They really did everythign for as cheap as possible and the place itself (in builders own words) is still unfit to live in.

 

Question 4 - Who is responsible under the 1985 landlord and tentant act for flooring? Mum has always taken care of this herself, but the kitchen is in a shoddy state and we are about to put a floor in but not sure if its our job.

 

Question 5 - The kitchen, has an old solid fuel Rayburn. The LL is refusing to remove it, but it is unsafe to use. It has a hole in the side! We have offered to remove at our own cost but LL is refusing permission. It also causes a secondary problem, previously mum kept her freezer in the conservatory as the kitchen was too small to accomodate. When the conservatory was removed, we moved this to the second bedroom but it couldnt stay there. As the LL has no intention of replacing the conservtory they have suggested the freezer be kept in the living room. We dont want this, are happy to remove the unsafe rayburn to make room for the freezer. Is there anythign we can do?

 

Question 6 - We have reported the issues well over 2 yers ago to LL before involving council. Previous legal advice have said we can sue for damages. We arent so fussed on this, we just want the place safe. Are we doing the right thing?

 

Question 7 - LL keeps coming back, at minimal notice (24hrs max) and just turning up. A lot of the time, we are okay with this if it means the property is going to be repaired, but it is fairly frequent and really makes mum feel uncomfortable as we cannot always chaperone. We can refuse this cant we? At least until its more convenient with us?

 

Am sure there are more questions, such a complicated thing to deal with. We really dont want to spend a lot of money on legal advice if we are able to establish a few things first with any help we can get here so all the assistance is very much appreciated!


We arent trying to stiff the LL, are happy to pay a fair rent but feel the LL is not living up to their obligations. The repair standard is completely sub-par and slap dash, its clear the idea is for them to make safe as cheaply as possible with little consideration on the mental impact its having on the tenant.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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So LL got their 1st and applied for a fair rent to be registered !

 

The rent may go up or down once the rent officer made their decision, Both parties have the right to appeal rent officer decision if you disagree, I'm not going into the appeal process.

 

Repairs to property usual come under s11, 1985 Housing act if their a Dispute.

 

Question 1, Yes Tenant should be present when RO visits, you should be there with your mum too and you don't have to have LL  present while RO visit.

 

Question 2, No, Just let RO see it for themselves, let the council deal with disrepair issues.

 

Question 3, discuss that with the council.

 

Question 4, 5, 6,  s11, 1985 Housing act, discuss that with the council.

 

Question 7, LL is giving 24hrs notice which is the correct way of going about it, change the locks if LL is just letting themselves in.

 

------------------------------------------------

 

There is only so much I or any else on CAG can advise you on, In the end you will need independent legal advice...

 

 

....

 

 

Edited by 45002
Stressed out !!!!!!!

Please use the quote system, So everyone will know what your referring too, thank you ...

 

 

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  • 4 months later...

I have previously posted about a dispute my parents have had with LL who has had little to do with the property they have rented for the last 35 years.

 

Fast forward to today, LL has applied for fair rent which was registered and the LL has finally brought the property to a safe standard following involvement from the local council.

 

We have received a new bombshell.. that the LL has applied for a possesion order under a notice of seeking possesion of a secure tenancy (NOSP).

 

Under grounds 3, 4 and 10.

 

I googled and found below:

 

Ground 3 –  Deterioration in the condition of the property

The tenant, or anyone else living in the property, must have caused deterioration in the condition of the property or common parts. If damage is caused by a lodger or subtenant of the tenant (without the tenant's consent), possession will not be granted if the tenant has taken reasonable steps to evict that person.

 

Ground 4 –  Deterioration in furniture provided

The tenant, or anyone else living in the property, must have caused deterioration in the condition of furniture provided by the landlord in the property or common parts. Where damage is caused by a lodger or subtenant of the tenant (without the tenant's consent), possession will not be granted if the tenant has taken reasonable steps to evict that person.

 

Ground 10 – Demolition or major works

Where the landlord intends either to demolish or reconstruct or do works to the property and needs possession in order to do so.

The landlord must prove that it intends carrying out works and such work cannot reasonably be carried out without obtaining possession.

[2] If the tenant agrees to vacate the premises temporarily while the works are carried out then there may be no need for possession.

The displaced tenant will normally be entitled to compensation.

[3] See Problems during repairs for information on compensation for loss of home.

 

My question is, following the fair rent register and an agreement that parents were covered under the 1977 rent act we were under the impression this is a regulated tenancy, not a secure tenancy?? or is there no difference?

 

Its a private rent, not through housing association and the property has just been deemed as safe under by the council.

 

We have also never been approached by the LL to say they felt that my parents have caused any damage or deterioration in the condition of the property. If anything, over the years it has vastly been improved by my parents. We raised safety issue to the council following repeated attempts for LL to repair the dangerous electrics and blocked drains.

 

If there is no difference in the tenancy types, what should our next step be? any thoughts?

 

More info if needed in my original thread

https://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/topic/421879-major-repairs-to-letting-of-a-sitting-tenant/?tab=comments#comment-5064284

 

 

 

 

 

 

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https://tinyurl.com/y484rmfk

 

A  Secure tenancy is Assured by 1988 Housing act

 

A Protected tenancy is Regulated by 1977 Rent act which is yours

 

Both have Grounds for possession order.

 

The grounds you have quoted are from 1977 Rent act, schedule 15, section 98 which are discretionary

 

If the LL has issued the correct "Notice to Quit" you need to show it to Shelter, CAB, Solicitor, local law centre checking to see if its correct notice or not.

 

Read on https://tinyurl.com/y3cdaq8s

 

Can you upload a copy of the NTQ in adobe pdf form to CAG with personal details Blank out

 

 

Edited by 45002
url as ever
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Please use the quote system, So everyone will know what your referring too, thank you ...

 

 

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Thanks for your reply. So are the tenancy one of the same thing? 

 

I always thought they were sitting tenants (regulated) because they moved in there in 1984, and it’s a private landlord not a housing association property.

 

The particulars in the claim are very arguable. The only deterioration was caused by the LL when they attempted to bring the property up to a safe standard. 
Parents have maintained the property as far as decoration and basic repairs but nothing structural. Waste is all they left from the works. We have evidence to back this up also.

 

Will seek further advice, but I asked you kind chaps here just to be sure :)

 

 

convert-jpg-to-pdf.net_2021-01-21_20-37-05 3.pdf

 

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Well, that made me laugh 1985 housing act form

 

The words "Invalid" spring to mind.

 

Regulated tenancy 1977 Rent act

 

You would need to show that to a Solicitor, local law centre so on just in case there been a update to forms during the Covid-19 crisis

 

This is what a NTQ form should look like for a Regulated Tenancy, but there a page missing which i cannot find

 

https://tinyurl.com/y6z845ha

 

Will keep looking

 

Bonus77 You need to get that notice checked out ASAP

 

 

.....

Edited by 45002
url as ever

Please use the quote system, So everyone will know what your referring too, thank you ...

 

 

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old and new threads merged for complete history

 

dx

 

please don't hit Quote...just type we know what we said earlier..

DCA's view debtors as suckers, marks and mugs

NO DCA has ANY legal powers whatsoever on ANY debt no matter what it's Type

and they

are NOT and can NEVER  be BAILIFFS. even if a debt has been to court..

If everyone stopped blindly paying DCA's Tomorrow, their industry would collapse overnight... 

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My last post #17 link to NTQ form is the correct one, 2nd page no longer used

 

Below is the copy of a NTQ for regulated tenants I was given some years ago.

 

You used to be able to buy theses NTQ from WH Smiths how times have changed.

NQT.pdf

Edited by 45002

Please use the quote system, So everyone will know what your referring too, thank you ...

 

 

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Thanks for the replies. Have received another letter from LL solicitor, same form for secure tenancy notice of seeking possession. Now they have removed ground 10 and left grounds 3&4.

am lining up an appt with a solicitor next week. All a bit strange as we had the fair rent agreed as a regulated tenancy.

The LL has been through so many solicitors now it’s a struggle to keep up.

 

one other thing,  neither NOSP have been sent via registered or recorded post. The letter we have received (email only at this point) is comprised of a cover letter with ‘Without Prejudice’ at the top then a copy of the NOSP. 
Does it have to be registered post in order for the notice to be seen as served?

 

will post back after solicitor appt btw cheers 

 

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So they only sent you the NOSP/NTQ via email to date !

 

Its good you're seeing a solicitor who can answer all your question, keep us posted on CAG.

Please use the quote system, So everyone will know what your referring too, thank you ...

 

 

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